SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

Cosmichail · Feb 9, 2007

It might be doable, but the only hidden calc we could affect would be to move her about 4 spots up in the score rankings.

Fascinating had no idea it worked that way. She is rising now with the downfall of KK/Louis.

One would think Gandhi would need less to become friendly. Since he is a pacifist in nature. Then changing civic would likely bring him in. If JC does declare on him and he asks us to help then all the better.

Taking France will take a turnset I imagine unless we do decide to vassal. With Gandhi we will have appr. 731 votes and we need 1005. Where do we get those 274 votes fast. Could we risk gifting cities to Isabella to increase her score. It is odd though that she is at +11 and not friendly yet but Gandhi is at +8 and only needs a few points meaning +10 to become friendly. SO there is an element of specific character/trait to each civ leader then.

For the remaining 274 votes we have taken most of KK's lands and France isn't that much so we are a long way off to meeting that objective.

This will take some doing I think.

GreyFox · Feb 9, 2007

And monty is friendly with us at -6 :lol:

Great work digging all those undocumented tricks, bob. I concur on the switch to UniSuff.

While we are grabbing Vicky's resource, remember to gift her some. I remember I gifted her most of our spare resources (I even had a screenshot), but in cosmic save I don't see those gifts. I must have forgotten to click "Please Accept These gifts". Scowler, remember to do that. She is our partner, it will do well for her to get all those resources as well.

With the mutual struggle, Mansa is back to friendly with Vicky, so we should had netted Mansa's votes.

There are a few cities with citizens ... I will rather have the city grow than to get the extra 1 hammer from a citizen which contributes no GP point.

I remember I started Rushmore somewhere ... but I could've remembered wrongly. However, Rushmore is greyed out when I look at the save. Curious.

Apart from JC, we could consider hitting on cyrus as well.

Basically, we are committed to a war path. Let the war engine rage.

--

bobrath · Feb 9, 2007

Izzy starts at like -3 with other players whereas Ghandi starts with a +1. That's a four point swing already. The ranking is divided by the number of players (at start of game), so you're talking about a 1-2 swing at most (it takes into account the difference in ranks).

So we're actually more positive with Izzy, but her in place negatives knock that down. Ghandi is more likely to "like" a player so you don't need as many positives to get him on a likeable stance.

There's some interesting stuff in there, I'd highly encourage other to read it. Everything from which AIs will *never* ask for help to those that will *never* trade a tech. Good stuff.

Given how close we might be with Ghandi and Izzy, going vassal at this point may not be the optimal choice. MAY not bet.

Scowler · Feb 10, 2007

Cosmichail said:
Since we are considering revolting to US manually so to speak then we should also go emancipation as we are not going to whip anymore and can buy whatever we need. Don't need science anymore this is the end of game soon and smashy smashy to get there. I like JC's lands and strategically perfect.

Looking at the save, switching to US = 3 turns of anarchy; US + Emancipation = 4 turns. Since everybody apart from Fred and Washington is already in Emancipation we might as well wait for a spare UN resolution and do it for free?

KK is indeed currently offering the following:

If he is already willing to do this I think we can afford to wait a few turns and try the "pure" diplomacy first. So for the start of my turnset I'm thinking:

Switch to US right away
Go for diplomatic victory in the next vote and see what figures come up (we'll see whether GreyFox is right about getting the nod from Mansa as well)
In the meantime, attack Paris etc.; see what it takes to make Louis consider capitulation also.
Depending on the results in the election we decide whether to vassalize KK (and Louis?; and others?) or just wipe them out.

This is the current domination status:

Thoughts before I play?

bobrath · Feb 10, 2007

I think you're spot on in your analysis. We do need to start being careful of the Land Area Domination limit. Not paranoid, but careful.

Regarding reducing the delay on getting Emancipated... If we're going to go with a dip vote next, will the next vote be fore sec gen OR will we have a "regular" vote? If its a sec gen vote, then that means we'd be waiting for 3 votes of growing unhappy faces (which is what > 9 turns?). IMO, giving up one turn to gain 8+ turns of reduced cultural spending and increased production... well its worth it.

If we have any chance of converting both Izzy and Ghandi, it will be by a very small amount - so we should try to avoid vassaling. I like the idea of taking the dip vote while pounding Louis. One note of warning (as we saw with Monty) if we don't take their capitulation, they will eventually find another civ to vassal to. It would be no fun to have them vassal to JC or Tok...

GreyFox · Feb 10, 2007

I think you can only capitulate to enemy during war, and we definitely do not want another vassal. Since KK is not at war with MM, there is no danger here.

we should really watch the land limit now ... it is only 14% away. Maybe we should start gifting cities to Monty, or Mansa if he starts voting for us.

bobrath · Feb 10, 2007

They won't capitulate to another civ they'll do what Mansa tried to do with us "Please accept my vassalage to protect me from the meanies of the world".

If we gift too much to Monty he can pull out of vassal state.

GreyFox · Feb 10, 2007

bobrath said:
They won't capitulate to another civ they'll do what Mansa tried to do with us "Please accept my vassalage to protect me from the meanies of the world".

Can they do that during a war? I thought that is only possible during peace time, else we would automatically be at war with the master civ.

If we gift too much to Monty he can pull out of vassal state.

... he is only 8% of our land ... we will really be gifting way too much in order for him to reach 50% :lol:

bobrath · Feb 11, 2007

Actually what happens (as with all vassal entering states) is that the vassal takes on the war/peace footing of the master. So they can indeed go under someone else and escape our war.

Not sure about percentages, is it as compared to master or compared to state when entering vassalhood?

GreyFox · Feb 11, 2007

Doesn't seems right (or fair

) for A to vassal into B and thus forcing peace on C when when only A & C are at war. But I don't know. In any case we should keep hammering KK and Loius until they hold less votes then monty.

What I do know is there is only 3 ways for vassal to break free: (a) reject a resource tribute and go to war with master; (b) losing half of the vassal's original territory when entering vassal state, or (c) the vassal grows to 50% or more of his master's territories.

We would welcome (a) :lol:

, if we are gifting monty cities, (b) shouldn't be happening, and We definitely would not be giving monty so many cities for (c) to occur.

--

Cosmichail · Feb 11, 2007

I don't know about you but I haven't found that a vassal can even accept a city. I have tried to but there is no way to gift a city to a vassal. (the cities are not available in the usual screen to give away) I don't like it as there are times it would be convenient to give a city to vassal just to get him/her back to a size that helps your empire (as usually they are beaten down badly to capitulate).

Greyfox have you been able to gift cities to vassal?????

GreyFox · Feb 11, 2007

I can't recall ... I thought we did give a city to Louis in Be My Vassal 1. let's just watch our land % carefully.

--

Scowler · Feb 11, 2007

I'll keep this relatively short but sweet

I started by arranging those various trades with Vicky. Then it was time for a revolution!

The result of this was that Julius become Annoyed with us, and the following turn he closed his borders against us. As for Baldy ... he remained Pleased.

Also the following turn came the elections for Secretary General. No difficulties there:

Meanwhile, Louis made peace with Mansa. He wasn't so lucky with us:

After that, he was willing to capitulate but I turned him down.

Then it was time for another vote so I went for Diplo Victory as agreed. The result this time:

I took my frustration out on the French:

Louis is Dead Dead Dead! Now it's Kublai Khan's turn:

The final vote of the turnset reveals little change:

On the final turn the civic bonus with Gandhi increased to +2 ... but he still remained at only Pleased... :mad:

I didn't gift any cities: I was waiting to see if Izzy or Gandhi were willing to vote for us first. Besides, the Domination threshold is still some way off. However, keep an eye on it as our new cities start coming online and popping borders.

I started redirecting new troops to the north of the homeland so that we can now attack the remaining Mongol cities as well as the Barbs that have settled up there:

Oh, and we've just popped a Great Engineer at Athens so we can have a Golden Age whenever we want.

SAVE

Scowler · Feb 11, 2007

The logs:

Spoiler CFC log :

Scowler · Feb 11, 2007

Spoiler autolog :

This has been an absolutely fascinating scenario but I'll be glad when it's over and I no longer have to worry about my computer collapsing under the strain of the huge map ... or the forum refusing to post ridiculously long CFC logs... :rolleyes:

GreyFox · Feb 11, 2007

Nice turns, scowler. Poor louis.

Hmm ... I am puzzled by the refusal of MM to vote for victoria ... is he still friendly with Vicky?

We can leave KK alone, or weaken his defenses so that the barb will finish him for us

I think it is time to give the Romans a knock on their doors.

Cosmichail · Feb 11, 2007

Good job Scowler another one for the English against the French LOL....

@Greyfox MM is at +3 with Vicky ???? and with us +6 so he actually likes us better but not good enough for diplo vote.

I also confirmed that we cannot gift city to Monty. If PA has similiar rules as Vassal and domination counts in a similiar manner then we could gift to Vicky but that's a big IF. Gandhi is at +10 so in a while should reach +11 and an AI does not have to be friendly to vote in diplo. I had a game with Hannibal and he voted for me although we weren't friendly but close.

We need Gandhi although he isn't enough but gifting those cities we take that puts us over limit may be the answer. We are very close and there are some five cities coming out of revolt soon.

I see that we put cities on growth mostly no specialist anywhere which is good. The island holding the cities Karakorum/Turfan/Beshablik need workboats about three or four. That too should aid in pop growth.

War arena

Gandhi will not go to war "nothing to gain"
Isabella will not go to war "nothing to gain"
Hatshepshut will not go to war "nothing to gain"
Mansa Musa will go to war for Ref/Mass Media against JC.

It would be nice if JC declared on Gandhi and he then asks us for help and we oblige but that's wishful thinking. How long has JC been with enough on his hands some five turnsets.

Just with Monty/Vicky/Russia we have near 700 votes. So we are still shy of 300 plus. With city growth/cities coming out of revolt and Gandhi's 145 votes we will still need quite a few. We are so close to domination and taking JC's lands may put us over so we should get Gandhi to really liking us for next diplo vote and gift him the cities that we acquire from JC.

bobrath · Feb 11, 2007

BTW, I'd leave the barb city as is. Its not votes we're losing and it takes up a nice chunk of land to keep us from the domination limit. Unless someone is really enamored with those lands - leave em as non-voting peeps.

We need to concentrate on the vote count. Ghandi will come to us sooner rather then later. Its now only a matter of time (imo). Let the fav civic bonus keep growing and we're golden.

I agree that JC needs to be next. Its going to be a tough one to get his votes without popping the land limit. SO yeah, can we gift any cities to Ghandi (being careful to not push him ahead of Tok. We want to be going against Tok and not Ghandi in the voting!!!

Cosmichail · Feb 11, 2007

That's a good point about Gandhi which makes Izzy more attractive in getting to vote for us too. She is small and the bigger she gets according to you the happier she is.

Again the question is will the AI take cities located far away from their homeland. Quite often they won't.

I finally read the Sirian Doctrine and we really haven't been applying the true nature of it. According to his doctrine, using like 3 destroyers/3 battleships/3 aircraft carriers to bombard enemy. Swoop in on enemy city and use CR3 tanks or marines for amphibious assault. We have not done any amphibious assault and do have marines. Perhaps a small contingency of marines may aid this and some CR3 tanks. I too have found CR3 tanks do quite well on amphibious assaults. I have used this approach but am just lately using the amphibious technique which works great with Ragnar. Amphibious mechs or infantry save that counterattack nonsense before you can attack.

Another thing I noticed and forget to mention earlier is why does Toku have troops on France now.????

If we can get Isabella and Gandhi on our side we may well be near a diplo vote. Isabella is +11 so we should be able to do something to get her to our side. Is there a city we can gift nearby (chancey) to get that extra happy to rise in score and be less upset with our score.

Between the two it's about 200 votes and taking JC's lands should net us the rest we need plus the pop growth that we will experience over the next while. All cities are growing good so that should be a factor too. I have to say Scowler excellent job on micromanaging the cities and nice taking five cities so quickly. If we can stay with that kind of gain but again we need to be wary of the domination limit.

bobrath · Feb 12, 2007

Random thought that occurred to me, but depends on some AI help/luck.

If we can weaken enemy cities down to a single punk of a defender and then tell Monty to attack that city... He'll capture it giving us 100% of the votes, but only 50% of the land hit. The hard parts will be keeping Vicki from taking it and getting Monty's troops over there.

Another thought. From looking at the growth trends as indicated by the voting counts... Ghandi is down right stale while Cyrus, Izzy, Tokugowa, and Saladin are showing double digit percentage growth (forecasted) over the next 50 years. Without having the map in front of me, I can only guess that some of this growth comes as borders suddenly expand to offer new growth possibilities. Have we been easing borders on folks that won't vote for us?

SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

Dark Lord of The Sith

Make it so ...

Emperor

Mr. Understatement

Emperor

Make it so ...

Emperor

Make it so ...

Emperor

Make it so ...

Dark Lord of The Sith

Make it so ...

Mr. Understatement

Mr. Understatement

Mr. Understatement

Make it so ...

Dark Lord of The Sith

Emperor

Dark Lord of The Sith

Emperor

Similar threads