SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

Meatbuster · Dec 7, 2006

Ok, let me answer some other stuff:
1. Great Engineer can rush 50% of the UN, and a sizable part of the Elevator.
2. As long as we don't have Chemistry (which for reasons of speed we shouldn't be getting anyway in a UN beeline) Great Scientist will rush Physics and Electricity both of which are on the way to the UN. Great Artist (if we have one) will rush Radio and Mass Media.
3. I'd go with the "6 good cities" than the "7 average cities" plan. There may be good sites off-shore.
4. If we are first to economics and get the Great Merchant, there is always the trade mission.

namliaM · Dec 8, 2006

Robo

2) I got the tech preferences from this thread where it says that a GS will burn on Chemistry and Biology before Electricity... Also the GS path not helping was in refering to the Free GS from Physics, therefor Physics is allready researched.
I have blindly accepted that thread as beeing true, I have not investigated it or found a way to confirm/disprove it (without a lot of Worldbuilder stuff).

3) There will be, and I didnt change anything on the other 6 cities. Maybe we should even not settle 5 and move 3, 1 tile NE picking up that fish. Making 3 much stronger. Tho we lose the military from 5 offcourse...

On the colossus, we have one thing going for it... Copper.
Clams in 4
Fish in 2
Fish in 3 or 5
Fish and Clams in Moscow
2 Clams in St Petes
+ some odd Coastal tiles we work = 10 commerce from the colossus
Which is some 188 (or 3 axemen) raw hammers. Is it worth it?
With currency and TGLight we have 4 traderoutes each 2gpt, 8gpt per city. 1gpt per city CC. Offcourse the Palace
2 + 1 + 1 + 3 + 4 = 11 gpt from above water tiles.
5 mined gems (6gpt each?) = 30
Not counting any cottages...
6 * 8 + 6 * 1 + 11 + 30 + 8 = 103 commerce. That is a nice 10% boost with doing nothing special really...
Also even if Colossus runs for 19 turns, it is a 1:1 conversion of hammers to coins. Anything after that is profit.

Tho the question is, are we better off capturing it or building it? We are verry low on hammers as is... and would have to dedicate the capitol to it for 188/12 = 16 turns.
So this I guess is the point... Are we going to try peacefull => Yes pick up the Colossus for sure...
Do we want to go backdoor? Then I am not so sure... We want to start building a force ASAP and can put the 3 Axemen (upgraded to Mace?) very well.

Edit:
@Dot,
I will have another look at the Sailing=>Masonry=>Wheel story, but we need ALL 3 techs to get the stone to St.Petes anyway... So weather we make it one way or the other... should not matter much. Actually picking up Sailing allows for additional commerce (connecting Petes and Moscow) and allows for an earlier Lighthouse => More food.

dot · Dec 8, 2006

I think that we all agree that red me (the copper site) and cyan me (the passage) are sites that shall be settled like painted. Right?

For all the other possible options I've laid out some letters - from A thru G. If we are going for six cities in total we should pick two out of them. If we're heading for seven sites in total on this island - obviously pick three. I leave it to someone else to list the pros and cons of the various sites. ~ How about our lurker contributing? frankcor?

~ Now folks ... Discuss!

BTW, this is - believe it or not - a Got It. But I'll delay playing for two more hours. So you can post thoughts or comments or blessings or whatever you like.

Your .

PS: "Sailing >> Masonry >> Wheel" it will be. Probably.

namliaM · Dec 8, 2006

I did a matchup for Sailing => Masonry => Wheel (SMW) vs MWS
16 turns not having sailing means no having trade routes = 16 * 2 commerce = 32 commerce lost.

Wonder Builds
SMW: Mids 119 TGLight 101
MWS: Mids 118 TGLight 102
I would have guessed the delay on TGLight would be greater than one turn, but there it is.

Other builds in Moscow:
SMW: Lighthouse (74) + 2 warriors (78 & 81), ---------------, Galley (88)
MWS: --Workboat (64) + 2 Warriors (70 & 75), Lighthouse (81), Galley (96)

Note:
SMW First warrior goes MP in Petes, where it is 2 turns late... losing 2 turns on a unhappy face (I think), the second goes fogbust
MWS First warrior goes MP in Petes, where it is right on time, Second goes fogbust 6 turns earlier => Less chance of barbs...
Untill we produce the second warrior we have a gap behind the Fogbusting Warrior on the Gems Hill (WGH). We could retreat WGH some tiles, but this romoves the blockade of the eastern lands and any barbs spawned there can walk around our warrior(s). Plus (I think) we will never fully close the gap effectively.

Warrior/Settler after TGLight (settler whipped for 2)
SMW: 109
MWS: 110

Commerce = total commerce within the city not counting traderoutes after fishing
On turn 120, Moscow
SMW: Size 4, 31 food, 151 hammers, 1348 commerce
MWS: Size 4, 09 food, 068 hammers, 1321 commerce (+ Workboat => total 68 + 45 = 113 hammers)
St.Petes
SMW: Size 2, 16 food, 18 hammers, 208 commerce
MWS: Size 2, 30 food, 16 hammers, 225 commerce

Totals SMW vs MWS:
Food: Moscow -22, St.Petes +14 = -8 food
Hammers: Moscow -38, St.Petes -2 = -40 hammers
Commerce: Moscow -27, St.Petes +17, Delay Sailing -32 = -42 commerce

I think the winner is SMW (Sailing => Masonry => Wheel), unless you put a high price on getting Pyramids 1 turn earlier vs the delay of TGL by one turn and fogbusting a few turns earlier.
*I sure hate to lose either wonder by 1 turn knowing this...*

After discovering The Wheel we have about 477 (raw) commerce before TGLight is build. Without OBs the traderoutes will not be filled! So to get benifitting ASAP we should go for Writing (Pottery => Writing) after The Wheel. The has the added bonus of giving us Granaries but mostly for the OBs. IIRC (dont have CIV at the moment) writing is some 180+ (120 on normal + Monarch) and potter 120+ (80 on normal + Monarch), totals 300+ commerce. While on a relative beeline Dot got writing in 102 here. If we insert IW (300+) before writing we will get OBs (to) late, wasting commerce for missed traderoutes at a rate of about 2*2 + 1*1 = 5 commerce/turn. Considering we have about 18gpt not including the (external) traderoutes.... that is a big loss... tho I am not sure how much delay there would be.

I really dont see the priority of the Iron (Working)... (other than cutting jungle). By the time we get to Chemistry + Astronomy we should have been able to get us some Iron. If not we may want to consider peacefull UN or even Space. The only tech we would pick up now but dont need on a strickt space race is Mass Media (UN).

Cosmichail · Dec 8, 2006

Don't underestimate the power of Iron. Without it we are screwed and commerce wouldn't matter much. I see a lot of numbers which add up to something but no iron adds up to loss. Why? The AI will attack as they always do in warlords. (may even gang up on you)

I got stuck without Iron a few times (it seems that warlords gives you copper easier now than iron) and when you need pikes, crossbows and frigates then it hurts. I'd rather pass up on Pyramids than loose the ability to have iron. I don't agree namliaM, we need it asap to find it and claim it. So I'd say don't put it off too long and let's just worry about those two wonders but don't need any more than that. Colossus is a waste considering it lasts for an eye blink. That should be spent on settlers instead and get our landmass covered.

EDIT: Dot agree on your settling sites.

dot · Dec 8, 2006

While reading I figured something rather stunning! At least I found it somewhat funny. ... :crazyeye:

# of posts?

And I agree, that we need to ~ at least ~ see the iron soon! Also think of the production bonus if we have some!

And the . will be off to play some turns. So you better start :religion:

!

Regards, .

Cosmichail · Dec 8, 2006

Yes it dawned on me too Dot. 1966 was a good year although I was only 8 years old at the time. It is funny though the Dutchies have the same amount of posts and believe or not I have been watching namliaM's count to see if we would meet at a crossroads. Sure enough it was 1966. Now it's 1967 one of the best years for the Chevy Camaro.

frankcor · Dec 8, 2006

dot said:
I leave it to someone else to list the pros and cons of the various sites. ~ How about our lurker contributing? frankcor? ~ Now folks ... Discuss!

City siting is perhaps my greatest weakness (I love that contradiction).

Given that The Passage and the Copper Site are already decided, I would go for two more sites: B and D.

Site B because it's the only site that can work the Fish resource off the eastern coast. It also results in no overlap of fat-crosses with its neighboring cities. If you're going to rely on Specialists, Site B gives you three food resources and that's a big plus.

The only thing going for Site D is that it results in slightly less overlap than Site E does. It also will claim a tile across the straits, blocking those straits to any AI without an Open Borders agreement. Other than that, both D and E are mainly just land grabbing fishing sites and neither will ever amount to much. I wouldn't waste a settler on either one. Assuming it would be the last city you found on this island, it's likely an AI will settle there first, instead. Then you can just take it by force or by culture.

dot · Dec 8, 2006

Oops!

Turn 40 (2800 BC)
dot's comment: Welcome to the reign of the .

Turn 41 (2770 BC)
Moscow grows: 4
Moscow finishes: Warrior

Turn 42 (2740 BC)
Moscow begins: Settler
dot's comment: The settler is due in 14!
Tech learned: Mysticism

Turn 43 (2710 BC)
Research begun: Sailing

Turn 44 (2680 BC)
Warrior defeats (1.70/2): Barbarian Panther

Turn 51 (2470 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat

Turn 56 (2320 BC)
dot's comment: :whipped:

that settler!
Moscow finishes: Settler

Turn 57 (2290 BC)
Moscow begins: Work Boat
dot's comment: Folks, we have a settler!
Tech learned: Sailing
Moscow grows: 3
Moscow finishes: Work Boat

Turn 58 (2260 BC)
Research begun: Masonry
Moscow begins: Lighthouse
St. Petersburg founded

St. Petersburg begins: Monument

Turn 64 (2080 BC)
Moscow grows: 4

Turn 65 (2050 BC)
Tech learned: Masonry

Turn 66 (2020 BC)
Research begun: The Wheel
Moscow begins: Worker
St. Petersburg grows: 2

Turn 67 (1990 BC)
dot's comment: Workers? Gotta be :whipped:

! As ordered by the MPW!
Moscow finishes: Worker

Turn 68 (1960 BC)
Moscow begins: Lighthouse
Moscow finishes: Lighthouse
dot's comment: Oh Overflow! (To be sung to the tune of "Oh, happy day!")

Turn 69 (1930 BC)
Moscow begins: Warrior
Moscow finishes: Warrior
dot's comment: Oh Overflo-ow! :lol:

Turn 70 (1900 BC)
Moscow begins: The Great Lighthouse

Turn 71 (1870 BC)
Moscow grows: 3

Turn 73 (1810 BC)
Tech learned: The Wheel

Turn 74 (1780 BC)
Research begun: Pottery
dot's comment: Wheel in. I decide to take the pottery >> writing >> IW route. I won't get there in my set, though.
St. Petersburg grows: 3

Turn 75 (1750 BC)
dot's comment: Lookout for contacts? Sure!
Scout promoted: Woodsman I
Moscow grows: 4

IBT:
Scout loses to: Barbarian Warrior (1.62/2)
dot's comment: No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy!

Turn 77 (1690 BC)
Moscow's borders expand
dot's comment: And here are Alex' borders.

Turn 79 (1630 BC)
dot's comment: When you're roaded and you see it bang your rocks! :mischief:

The tune is correct but I must have gotten sth wrong with the lyrics.

Turn 80 (1600 BC)
dot's comment: I've whipped the monument at St Pete!

------------------------------ End of turn report. ------------------------------

The tech situation:

Our land:

Thoughts for the next player:

Let the overflow at St Pete go into the Mids! Do so until the city would grow unhappy! Then swap production to a worker. On the last turn on which he can be whipped for two pops whip him and take the overflow into the Mids. The last turn on which it would be possible is when: production bar < 45. You have to let the city grow to size 4 before whipping the worker! Use the turn on the Mids, please.
Move the warrior to the X for fogbusting duty!
As for Moscow: I'd start a settler when it's about to become unhappy. Whip it on the last turn when it still needs two pops! Overflow into TGL.

Spoiler The extracted autolog. :

Yep. That's it. Comments, folks?

dot · Dec 8, 2006

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SAVE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

bobrath · Dec 8, 2006

Nice work, interesting to see that Stonehenge has already fallen. I'll be watching to see when the Great Wall pops up.

namliaM · Dec 8, 2006

I totaly agree, lets fill this blob of land ASAP after the wonder rush.... and see where we are then.

I wouldnt be so ready to accept the AI settling our lands. I have found the AI slacking at best to found cities across water. I think we should found it and found E. Because the copper site is a military production center (I think) thus will not/should not work those gems. E with 2 gems and 5 cottages (not enough food and no Farms possible there...), it can be our cash city Put a lib in there for when we run high science and Grocer/Market/Bank for when we dont... It will support our economy in times of need.
B Definatly (IMHO) we can farm it as we see fit ... with cows fish and rice it is allready a strong food city. The tiles we dont farm we can cottage...

On the passage, how would we feel about going 1 east? On the gems, yes I know. BUT... It makes the hill we are now on available for some (needed?) hammers. The rice we lose but that belongs to E anyway (in my book). Keep the Clams and pick up 2 grasslands which can be cottages... Or workshops for hammers...

Dot said:
The last turn on which it would be possible is when: production bar < 45

sorry but you are WRONG dotman... I am not sure where the limit is... but we get a 50% production bonus on workers, which is why we get the "dot's comment: Oh Overflow! (To be sung to the tune of "Oh, happy day!")". The limit is atleast at 23 possibly even lower....

Comments:
- Why did you delay the whip of the first settler? I think this delays Pyramids considerably.
- To bad about the Scout...
- IW :sad:

I still believe we are better of researching Math & Alphabet and trading for IW, instead of researching both.

Without Iron, makes it a little tougher... and I agree if you need Crossbows.... But who needs crossbows, when you have macemen? I hope if this game goes anything like my test games we will be at macemen while our neighbours still have Archers... :hammer:

tho this needs a relative beeline... it is verry doable...

We are quite bussy founding our lands and have not yet scouted much abroad, what good is it going to do us to know we dont have Iron on our lands? Or do for that matter? We wouldnt know where to go looking for it.
- Re: Whipping the seccond settler... We need a galley IMHO
-- Explore a bit (meet our eastern neighbour for example)
-- To hop our settler/warrior to the copper site.

Also we dont seem to have a warrior on the Gem mine jungle hill. We need to get a warrior there ASAP. It block our entire bit of land from barbs and there is no fog between him, the warrior on the cross and Moscow. NO barbs will be a threat to Moscow before the advent of Axemen. By then hopefully we either have our own or we have settled our lands.

Edit:
As for settling... If we can take a warrior/scout across the pond to Alex land and find the stone area contains some nice foods... I would take that on over E anyday, if only as a (solid) foodhold on there for when we start warring.

dot · Dec 9, 2006

What is the roster now? Are you going to play, bob?

Why did I delay the whip of the settler? - To have the workboat out immediately after the settler. - :smoke:

? -

!

Regards, .

namliaM · Dec 9, 2006

We lose 3 food/turn+1hammer/turn for delaying the settler and gain 1food/turn and 1 commerce/turn that the workboat is earlier.

Offcourse delaying the settler does give Moscow a few extra hammers...

What do we prefer? A earlier 3rd city (whipping a settler) or a galley?
We can build a warrior (to size5), and whip a Galley and start exploring a little, finish TGLight ASAP, but stay with 2 cities....

Moscow @ size 4
Min prod on settler, whip for 2 => Delay TGLigh 6 turns
Max prod on settler, whip for 2 => Delay TGLight 5 turns

Moscow @Size 5
Min prod, whip for 2 => Delay 7 turns
Max prod, whip for 2 => Delay 7 turns

So if we do want a settler vs a galley, we are looking at an average delay of 6-7 turns on TGLight I think.

dot · Dec 9, 2006

@namliaM and the rest of the team, too:

4B it would be for me!

Again, who's UP next? Who can or wants to play?

Meatbuster · Dec 9, 2006

re: Great Sci... don't research Gunpowder so G.Sci will research Physics, Electricity over Chemistry and Biology.

bobrath · Dec 9, 2006

Just bringing this forward (and modifying it to take the swap into effect).

dot said:
The roster:

namliaM (GMT+1)
Dot (GMT +1)
Greyfox (GMT +8)
Robo Kai (GMT +8)
Furrie (GMT +1)
Cosmichail (GMT -5)
Bobrath (GMT -5)
Scowler (GMT)

So that would put Greyfox up. :whipped:

GreyFox · Dec 9, 2006

I think nobody dare to take up the save, as most of us are utterly confused on how to proceed next, and fear of messing up namliam"s master-whip-plan ... well at least I am

However, the game must proceed (and it's just a game, so relax), so here we go:

After searching through 9 pages of brilliant discussions, I finally found a list of all the players to build us a roster:

Roster
namliaM == Master whipper, busy planning all the whips
Dot == just played
Bobrath == UP :evil:

Greyfox == on-deck
Robo Kai
Furrie
Cosmichail
Scowler

I see namliaM and dot has each played 40 turns, a tad too much IMHO (8 player roster, 40 turns each ==> 320 turns in 1 round :eek:

-- half the game gone! :lol:

). Please drop to 20 turns (or fewer) each for the remainder of this round.

---

GreyFox · Dec 9, 2006

we cross-posted and pointed our finger at each other :lol:

since you are the team leader and did indeed posted seconds before I do, alrighty then.

Got it.

Roster as Bobrath commanded
namliaM == Master whipper, busy planning all the whips
Dot == just played
Greyfox == UP
Robo Kai == On Deck
Furrie
Cosmichail
Bobrath
Scowler

bobrath · Dec 9, 2006

Hey now you can't cross point the leadership mantle at me!! I've already cast my vote for you to be El Jefe Mejor. And as you've so nicely decided to be up next, I can only bow to your wisdom.

SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

formerly Robo Kai

Deity

crossing the i's

Deity

Dark Lord of The Sith

crossing the i's

Dark Lord of The Sith

Emperor

crossing the i's

crossing the i's

Emperor

Deity

crossing the i's

Deity

crossing the i's

formerly Robo Kai

Emperor

Make it so ...

Make it so ...

Emperor

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