SGOTM 03 - Team VQ

We've also been discussing that it might be good to decide on a few more crucial things than getting caught up in "detail-discussions" - like I, for example, did.

1. Backdoor diplomatic is the way to go. space takes too long but it is always a backup option.
2. A B & C - Win and learn at the same time. Not bad!
3. b - I'd prefer a leader with an iron fist named "Veto".
 
good analysis, namliaM. I really appreciate the enthusiams and effort namliaM always put in for SGOTM ... now, if only he does that for Fox04 ... :lol:

So in summary, we should start barracks, switch to WorkBoat when fishing is in, possibly switching back to barracks after the first workboat, and whipping the barracks to get hammer overflow to a second work boat? Or is it better to get the 2nd workboat normally, and whip the barracks for lighthouse?

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Re: Dot's MCQ (Multiple Choice Question):

1. Right, backdoor is definitely the way to go ... but you will be surprised how fast good player can nab a space win on an archipelago map ... (see kylerean's Epic 2 or 3 report ... launching at 1880)

2. Have fun, learn, don't care much abt winning.

3. Why do we need someone with veto power, unless that someone is one of the 1K3S: Kylerean, Sirian, Sullla, Soren? No, its a SG, I say whoever that is UP has veto power on his turns. He can damn well play as he/she please, but be prepared to be cirticized by Yours Grumpiness :cooool: ... ... (and whipped by frankcor ... by the way, welcome! Time for you to scrutinized my play and send me to the woodshed :lol:).


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LOL... Well the fun part allready is out there...

About the workboats... The best thing to do, I think, is
1) Start Barracks, work the FP
2) Switch to WB as soon as Fishing is in, keep working FP
3) Add Plains Spice on size 2
4) Start WB #2 directly after that, work Clams + FP as soon as the first WB has netted them
5) As soon as BW is in, revolt and whip the WB
6) Produce a warrior for MP, working the high foods allways.

Or atleast that is the way I did it... Would be intresting to see if someone can come up with something (near) like this... Which is alternate, but more good for the long term. My plan = 3 cities early (max 13 pop)... but on low pop. Having a reliable religion shot for example ups the happy by 2 (State Religion + Temple) which has 2 cities at pop 13... with way less maintenance...

@Cosmichail. The whipping of the barracks doesnt happen in the first 90 turns. We just put some hammers in, but leave more than 45 hammers to be produced. This way it still needs 2 pop to whip.
Also I said 25+ which is at normal speed, offcourse I mean 40+ per 2 pop whip (whip2 in the spreadsheet).
Yes there were multiple sheets there, but only one worked out to 90+ turns. I tried some alternatives.... but none seemed to work. Also the amount of work involved was not that big... I do this kind of thing for my employement too so... ;)

On the matter of TGLight... I personaly find that wonders depending on buildings i.e. Colossus/TGL (both) come kind off slowish in compared to i.e. Pyramids which can be build off hand.... at any time.
That beeing said... I am unsure how much TGLight costs, in particular at Epic speed. Also I know that whipping wonders carries a penalty, but we can whip for say 3 pop to finish it, guestimation: TGLight should be able to finish prior to turn 150 I think... At which point we should also have (I hope) Writing for some OBs and have meet some neighbours for some nice commerce.

Colossus IMHO, unless we have copper is way over rated...

I (obviously) didnt get to play test last night...
 
I did some more looking into the excel sheet and found a bug or 2 as to be expected... I guess...

Find attached a better version worked out to turn 101, where we now have 2 the same as in the previous version except now I take i.e. Revolting to slavery into account which I didnt do before.
This 1 turn causes the MP warrior to move back a turn or 2, which catapults into the 2nd worker to be turn 101 instead of turn 92.

Offcourse I will try and shake things up...
Now we/I do (more or less):
2 workboats
Warrior
2 settlers
2 workers
I wonder what will happen if I would interchange the Settler/worker to something like:
2 Workboats
Warrior
Settler
Worker
Settler
Worker
This will (I think) give the lighthouse earlier => more food = better? Offcourse this will delay the second settler some...

Bug: I allready found a small bug in this sheet. It is in the production of the barracks.... in turn 50, but doesnt change either the Lighthouse or Workers...
 

Attachments

One thing abt settlers ... you are assuming we have room on the starting island for 3 cities .... looks likely from the map, but may not be valid if most of the northern fogged tiles are coastal.

Abt the workers ... do we need 2 workers so soon? FWICS, you are not researching the necessary workers techs: wheel, pottery, argicultuire.

I would prefer switching back to barracks and let the city grow after the 2 workboats ... it will hasten worker/settler anyway with more foods.

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Jsut read Gyathaar's post in maintenance thread, and I noticed the blue circles. Now, blue circle is where the computer think its a good site, suggesting that there be resources nearby.

So, chances there are resources to the east and north in the fog, since none of the visible resources is within the BCF of the second blue circle.

sgotm3_start_small.jpg


Just a reminder for myself so I don't have to keep swotching pages:
Peter: Expansive, Philosophical, starts with Hunting and Mining.

I was never good with memorizing such things ...
 
OOooooh, nice :whipped: Thanks! I'll keep it well oiled. But from the looks of this team, it'll get little use.

What are the odds of that tile in the fog to the east of the city being a food resource? Agriculture or Animal Husbandry may have to be slotted into your research path.
 
With allready 2 food sources and 2 (calander) luxe sources (tho 2 of 1 ... so only 1 :) :( ) I think the odds are low or even near zero that that tile will contain a food source....
The odds IMHO are slightly better for a hammer source (i.e. stone or even a strategic source like Iron)
The biggest odds are, there is nothing there..... but grassland...

The scout moving East-North east, onto that forrest plains hill will/should reveal all we need to know.

About the 2 settlers Fox... Well I am hoping we have atleast room to make a second city.
Sailing will finish on the turn the warrior finishes... Therefor leaving some 18 turns to have the second city produce a galley if need be.... At 4 food/2 hammers (working i.e. a grass forrest) it will take the second city 17 turns to grow to size 2. Adding 17 * 2 = 34 hammers. A galley = 75, so whip that 1 pop and we have right on time a Galley to transport our (unescorted!) settler.

And the workers.... We have plenty time to get them something to do...
 
unescorted is a bad thing (TM) ... :nono: there is something called barbies ... but they won't appear in Monarch until like 2600BC. So if our settler moves off before than, it is okay I guess.

I am not convinced on the 2nd worker though. It's better to have the city grow than to waste time building a worker which we don't need right away. There's hardly things for 1 worker to do as it is, let alone 2.
 
Workers you can never have to many of them I think... And the build was just an example... also trying to get to some comparison of 0, 1 or 2 workboats... And really I find that 2 workboats is the best way I think...

The reason of a city not growing is why I like whipping settlers and workers.
I for one would like to look into a Settler => Lighthouse => Worker
or Lighthouse => Settler => Worker
situation after the initial warrior.

The first settler right now comes unescorted at turn 49 which is OK as we have the scout which can probably fogbust for us.

The second settler is where I am thinking of pulling the lighthouse in... Workboats and Lighthouse are our worker for Moscow, early on!

We could also delay our first settler some turns in favour of the lighthouse, which would then be whiped instead of the settler. The Lighthouse can be whipped at turn 40-ish (from memory) 1 turn after the warrior finishes at with moscow at size 4. This ups the food from the 2 clams from 8 => 10 Who needs a granary? with +9 food per turn at size 3 (2 Clams + FP)

The first settler however will be delayed by some 10 turns... (from memory again)... and will still be unescorted except for the initial scout and warrior.

From the screeny of the starting spot you can be sure there is atleast 3 more tiles hiding in the fog north of the scout. Thus also one can be sure there will atleast be a spot much like the practice game available, not sure about the cow or the fishies tho...

Edit: I dont think there will be enough hiding in the fog to make up for losing those 2 clams....
 
Edit: I dont think there will be enough hiding in the fog to make up for losing those 2 clams....

I agree we need those resources.

Also I kind of figured that had something to do with your work namliaM. You probably can do that in your sleep. I use spreadsheets too but more for bookkeeping.

The only thing on my mind is the TGlighthouse. Those trade routes on this map really can give us a boost and that AI (new improved) builds it really fast now so I don't think we should delay and do whatever it takes to get it whether the second/third city and whip/chop etc. etc. So getting two workers isn't so bad as we have lots of forests there and since BW will be needed for whipping it would also aid in chopping especially hills in the north as mines will be needed anyways.

As to religion if we go with this plan then that won't happen early. We could eventually put up specialist to aid in that but will need tech path opened up. Now can a scientist give COL or only philosophy? So writing shouldn't be too far off either for scientist in Moscow as we will need GP's to pop certain techs and maybe get us a religion.
 
Hi team!

It seems to me that most of you kind of agree on not going for one of the early three religions.
I really dislike it but will go with it if y'all think so. :( I'd really like to see us go for a true diplomatic victory rather than backdoor. If that would mean that we'd miss the laurels I'd accept that. I'd rather like that challenge! :groucho: :) Just my $0.02, anyway.

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Edit:
TGLight should be able to finish prior to turn 150 I think...
Spoiler an answer! :
From my second testgame:

Turn 127 (595 BC)
dot's comment: Napoleon finishes The Great Lighthouse. Would've been 8 turns to go!
End of Edit.
Workers you can never have to many of them I think [...] And really I find that 2 workboats is the best way I think...
:agree:

From the screeny of the starting spot you can be sure there is atleast 3 more tiles hiding in the fog north of the scout. Thus also one can be sure there will atleast be a spot much like the practice game available, not sure about the cow or the fishies tho...
Yes ... I think so, too. But what one can also see from the screeny of the starting spot is that the GSpices should be 2/0/1 rather than 2/1/1. :crazyeye: ;) - Just something I noticed when having a look at the excelsheet. Else, excel-lent sheet! :clap:

OOooooh, nice :whipped: Thanks! I'll keep it well oiled. But from the looks of this team, it'll get little use.
Hopefully true. Maybe these will be of more use for you: :gripe: and :worship:. ... ;) :p

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Oh, and finally: HOF 2.08.002. I thought I'd post a link here to make it more comfortable for everyone. It is required for the SGOTM3 as AlanH posted here. :goodjob:

Regards, .
 
@Dot

I hear ya on the "dislike". I too would like to see it happen but heres something to think about. If we go that route and we get beat then we will waste that research in the beginning that is vital. In SGOTM once you do something you cannot change it so decisions have to be made that offer the best long term solution.

So if we get Moscow growing and no whipping ability then we have to use turn off growth which personally I refuse to do. Why? I always forget about and wonder why the heck it won't grow now. Yes religion helps to grow what by one and if temple is built another. (happiness of course)

Choosing your first techs is tough but for sure BW will be needed with such a whippable city. In namliaM's plan that is the second tech researched after fishing and speeds up the remaining workboats/settlers/worker etc since there is good growth there. Nothing like Kyoto mind you (well close three very good food resources and who knows what is hidden in that tile to the east.) We also should farm the heck out of Moscow too and use it for GP farm. City to the north could be production center.

If we were starting with mysticism I would feel more confident about getting our first religion early. I just have had too many games where that one time the AI chose polytheism and lost out. DOH.....
I have too had a lot of games where even not starting with mysticism got Hinduism, but it didn't do me any good because AI founds their own but that's because I am warmonger and don't like being weak and usually go for military techs.
 
Thanx Cosmic.

I hear y'all on hinduism being a bad gamble. Reasons why I'd prefer going that route:

  1. For some strange reason I'd like to have plenty of religions. I can't really tell why. :confused:
  2. Given that we manage to spread an early religion widely it will benefit us as follows:
    • Espionage benefit.
    • :commerce: benefit.
    • Traderoute stability! I've reckoned that the gain from a traderoute rises with time - up to 9 :commerce: is what I've reached. I don't know if it's reset to 1 :commerce: when OB have been cancelled and renegotiated. (:help: anyone?) But if so an early religion contributes to our commerce even without a shrine!
    • The diplo+ for being brothers and sisters of the faith (until FR).
    • Thereby maybe getting more DP's.
    • Having early partners in war if we manage to seperate one of our neighbors (off whom we want to take some land) by faith!
  3. Cultural boost if we don't pick a state religion early.
  4. Cultural boost in FR.
  5. Possibly being the ones in charge to form political blocks if we get a lot of the religions.

I'm sorry to keep bothering you with this. It somehow seems wrong to me to go for diplo without more than one religion. I think I'd give in more easily if we'd go for SpaceRace. :sad:

Regards, .
 
dot said:
Hi team!

It seems to me that most of you kind of agree on not going for one of the early three religions.
I really dislike it but will go with it if y'all think so. :( I'd really like to see us go for a true diplomatic victory rather than backdoor. If that would mean that we'd miss the laurels I'd accept that. I'd rather like that challenge! :groucho: :) Just my $0.02, anyway.
It seems to me we have to pick up Fishing as the first tech and start getting out those workboats... This pretty much eliminates the early religions for me anyway... You seem to agree...
To get those 2 boats ASAP we also need to follow it up by BW, this totaly blows our chances of early religion I think. Better to aim for a later one (Taoism?) or none at all and take one on that spreads to us, let the AI care about building shrines.

I too would like the challange of a true diplo game, this can still be true... Cause if we can get one or 2 AI to vote for us, that would really help.
In a normal 7 civ game I find it hard enough to keep folks like Alex from turning on me (either fisicaly or voting) let alone with 18 civs on the map.
At the very least we need to thin the potential way voters and we want/need some more land to control than just 5 cities I think....

dot said:
Turn 127 (595 BC)
dot's comment: Napoleon finishes The Great Lighthouse. Would've been 8 turns to go
Ouch :mischief:

dot said:
Yes ... I think so, too. But what one can also see from the screeny of the starting spot is that the GSpices should be 2/0/1 rather than 2/1/1. :crazyeye: ;) - Just something I noticed when having a look at the excelsheet. Else, excel-lent sheet! :clap:
This is a bug in the testgame! The testgame has a forrest on that tile!
*goes back to drawing board*

dot said:
Oh, and finally: HOF 2.08.002.
Got it!

1 Cause you are a religious junky! You are hereby peanalised and have to play 2 games at Prince without building one Temple or Monastary and you may not addopt a state religion.

2b True nice gold to be had from shrines. But
I) We need to burn GPs to build shrines, I would rather have scientists burn on tech, than Profits on shrines. Let Isabella burn the profits and we will take the shrines from her cold hands.
II) Gold we get (a lot) of from selling techs.
III) From selling techs we also get (temporary?) + modifiers

2c Negative . trade route commerce is a result of a couple of things:
I) Recieving city (our city) size
II) Sending city (AI city) size
III) Distance between the 2 cities.
Not by how long the trade routes have been there.

2d yes + for brothers, but also - for heithens with others. This plan will ONLY work if we can manage to have 1 religion for say >10 civs.
Any civ that founds their own religion, will 75% sure switch to it. So we must hunt atleast 2 of the early 3 (i.e. HinJu) AND be succesfull at it AND be lucky that only one spreads around.
I think this is one game where it can pay of big time if we can manage to stay neutral. i.e. No religion... and pick our opponents and friends carefully once the world has taken shape (i.e. we explored a lot and have OBs with near every AI to fill up those trade routes)

We can still grab atleast 2 religions quite easily: Islam and Taoism. Even Confious maybe if we are lucky!
I think due to the lack of Myst and the need for Fishing and BW we are pretty screwed for any of the 3 early ones...
 
Just happend on skype!

[20:55:40] dot :

"[20:50:54] Scowler : Think about what limitations there may be for both us and the AI"

a) good spots to settle
b) low production
c) hard to defend if your nation stretches out
d) need a decent fleet, else war is difficult
e) only a few cottages >> TGL IS important
 
a) Probably quite a few food rich cities around (i.e. capitols, look at the practice game)
b) Low production, for sure... which is why I am not sure we want to be cutting down those forrests
c) Not sure... (F)
d) True which is why it is archipelago
e) Limitted land = limitted opportunity to cottage... Tho on the other hand it is tropical = Jungle = Grassland = Cottage?!

F) AI suck at landing units. i.e. war should not be to hard (defensively). IMHO.
G) On average, in my games the AI have a (much) bigger fleet than I have.

Getting some good productive cities is going to be important that is for sure.

Re: Drawing board... Not that much to go back to... We simply work a normal Grass forrest instead of the Spice. Offcourse this does cost us 1 commerce/turn, but that doesnt kick in untill turn 40. At which time (if we choose to research, Fishing, BW, Sailing) we can have sailing allready.

Dot, can you post your test game(s) I would like to try another map other than the test game....
 
Gonna reply to your next to last post later namliaM, thanx. The save at 4000BC can be found here. ;) I've only had that one of which I reported here!
 
It seems to me we have to pick up Fishing as the first tech and start getting out those workboats... This pretty much eliminates the early religions for me anyway... You seem to agree...
Fishing did the trick commerce-wise, I think!
Nope. I still think that an early religion is possible. And that it actually NEEDS fishing! But I'm no more for an early religion. :eek:

I too would like the challange of a true diplo game, this can still be true... Cause if we can get one or 2 AI to vote for us, that would really help.
In a normal 7 civ game I find it hard enough to keep folks like Alex from turning on me (either fisicaly or voting) let alone with 18 civs on the map.
At the very least we need to thin the potential way voters and we want/need some more land to control than just 5 cities I think....
Nice to hear read that. I agree and think that taking out another civ early would be nice since we probably won't get as many - for you have attacked our friend.

1 Cause you are a religious junky! You are hereby peanalised and have to play 2 games at Prince without building one Temple or Monastary and you may not addopt a state religion.
Religious Junky reporting for duty. :salute: I promise to play at least two games with the given variants by 01/31/07 and post them. :)

2c Negative . trade route commerce is a result of a couple of things:
I) Recieving city (our city) size
II) Sending city (AI city) size
III) Distance between the 2 cities.
Not by how long the trade routes have been there.
I'm firstly pleased and secondly flattered:
  1. I've learned a lot! Thanx. Do you have a link at hand?
  2. Being adressed as (b).(/b). Thank you very much! :D

...
I think this is one game where it can pay of big time if we can manage to stay neutral. i.e. No religion... and pick our opponents and friends carefully once the world has taken shape (i.e. we explored a lot and have OBs with near every AI to fill up those trade routes)
As I've already replied to the third quote in this post I'd actually like to go the "don't pick up a religion" route. I do that in most of my games. I just like to found them! :p ;) :)

Edit: Maybe use the Oracle for Theology, pick no SR but Theocracy to make sure we pick up noone's religion so noone can ask us?

We can still grab atleast 2 religions quite easily: Islam and Taoism. Even Confious maybe if we are lucky!
I think due to the lack of Myst and the need for Fishing and BW we are pretty screwed for any of the 3 early ones...
Maybe even Theology/Christianity for the Sistine Chapel?

Regards, .
 
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