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SGOTM 04 - Geezers

Htadus, you were the one who first suggested the 1 east of iron. I can't believe we can have so many options of where to build one city!

I like the idea of unpillagable iron (that is just one less thing to worry about), but I will leave it to others to work out the maths of tile usage, but I will be playing my last few turns in 14 hours so you'd better have something concrete by then otherwise I'll be settling wherever I feel like (because clearly nobody has a really strong preference one way or the other).

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of unpillagable iron that also does not require worker time to mine. This is very short-term thinking, I know, but it does meet our immediate needs (and in Civ IV - short term thinking is often the best because the game is shorter than you think and we're in a race here), and given that 1E of iron was also considered to be a compromise solution, settling on iron can surely be no worse. Unless someone comes up with a strong objection, that is what I plan to do. We will then still need to get rid of the barbarian city as soon as possible because once we start improvements around that city we don't want to have muck around contiually defending them against pillaging loin cloth wearing savages.

I am fully at fault. But another reason is that the two additional totally cottageable (3gpt to bigin) (4 total) river tiles are going to be in the fat cross and the indian culture is limiting our westward migration. This will give us a very powerful and high commerce city like ElDO and Cap.

BTW. I would use the Barb city svages to get our first swords and others promoted to CR1 by building that farm and waiting on the tile next to it. They will want to pillage it often and our units can get the promotions. We use swords against non axes, and axes and chariots against the axes. So when we go Keshik hunting we should have very capable units. we get rid or take over that town just before that.
 
Yes, I am wondering when and where we are going to start building cottages.

I think the first thing we need to build here is a farm to get the city to grow fast. The next I would build a cottage on the adjacent river tile. Once the pasture is done, I would change the river farm to a cottage.

But the first thing we need is a chop to build the monument or a library for culture. Library takes 3 times more hammers but has a good long term return. How many hammers do we get now per chop? We may want to do that and rush a grainary. Rax is a luxury compared to growth and culture in this city.

My build order for the new City would be. Culture building of choice, Grainary and Rax. Some may want Rax first or second. But that problem is Thrallia to solve.;)
 
I would not mind settling on the iron although I do not understand your fears on the barbs. I had barb cities that near to my cities and they did not get anything done as they will not send out a worker to improve tiles if you place a unit at the border. The occasional archer they will send is nothing we should fear about. The city will be razed as soon as we have two swords.
The only objection coming to my mind is that we would waste a 5 or 6 hammer tile. Nevertheless I don't really mind whether we settle on or beside the iron. I would say it is up to you, Harbourboy.;)
 
I'm hopeless at working out efficient city placement. Maybe I will toss a coin to decide where to settle.

I think we get about 66 hammers for a chopped forest now, because I think we used to get 44 before mathematics.
 
OK, I am done. Here is the log of my turnset:

IBT: Nothing
685 BC: Open Borders with Khan, Moved Chariot to Uppsala, El Dorado Settler Chop completed – sent worker to mine gems at Uppsala, moved Work Boat west

IBT: Nothing
670 BC: Sent worker to pre chop pyramids, work boat kept moving but found nothing interesting

IBT: Nothing
655 BC: Worker started mining gems, work boat kept moving but found nothing of interest, chariot found Khan cultural border 4 squares south of Uppsala

IBT: Nothing
640 BC: Moved Work Boat west. Found Old Sarai guarded by 2 archers, plus another land mass with an intact goody hut. Moved Chariot south and found New Sara guarded by 1 archer. Moved Nidaros citizen from corn to hill to slow down growth and get more hammers for Pyramids.

IBT: Nothing
625 BC: Settler completed in El Dorado Sala. Started Spearman (10 turns). Moved Settler north with Axeman from Nidaros. Moved Work Boat north and found some stone in Khan’s land. Moved Warrior south, found Chehalis guarded by 2 archers.

IBT: Advisor suggests Library in El Dorado Sala
610 BC: Moved Settler/Archer north. Moved Chariot south, found Karakorum on river hill guarded by three archers with horses connected. Moved Work Boat north, found Khan’s trireme. Sorry – worker finished chopping forests for Nidaros! I forgot to turn it off last turn.

IBT: Nothing
595 BC: Spotted Barbarian Axe sitting on iron to North. Sent our axe ahead without settler, just in case. Hmmm, we need our Chariot back. Chariot and Work Boat found nothing this turn.

IBT: Uppsala grows to size 4.
580 BC: Work Boat completed navigation of Mongolia. Decided to send back south to new land rather than risk destruction at hands of misunderstanding Indians.

IBT: The Oracle has been built in a far away land
565 BC: Moved Work Boat south and Chariot back north. Moved El Dorado Sala warrior to Nidaros and Nidaros warrior (still unpromoted) to Settler in case Barbarian axe comes pillaging. Moved Nidaros citizen back to corn. Nidaros now to grow in 7 turns and Pyramids to come in 21.

IBT: Nothing
550 BC: Barbarian axe and archer in north move toward our axe on a hill. Gem mine completed, started road to link it to empire.

IBT: Our axeman survived attack from Barbarian Axe and Archer. We discovered Mathematics.
535 BC: Started research of construction (17 turns). Alphabet was 14 turns.

IBT: Nothing
520 BC: Uppsala completes library. Started production of barracks (5 turns). Workers sent to chop forests north of Nidaros. Spotted a Barbarian city 3 squares north of proposed city site.

IBT: Nothing
505 BC: Spearman completed in El Dorado Sala (left unpromoted). Started work on another one. Forest chopped by Nidaros. Pyramids now 14 turns away.

IBT: Nothing
490 BC: Warrior found fish in sea but too far from any iron city sites. Founded Iron Sheep on iron hill. Set to build Library (45 turns) Fortified axe in Iron Sheep.

IBT: Nothing
475 BC: Clearing forest gave 44 hammers to Nidaros.

IBT: Nothing
460 BC: Work Boat discovers new civilisation to the west, but don’t seem to be able to make contact. Nidaros grows to size 7.

IBT: Nothing
445 BC: Barracks completed in Uppsala. Started Axeman. Western warrior sights an Indian swordsman.

IBT: Nothing
430 BC: El Dorado Sala grows to size 6. Western warrior sees Bombay, guarded by one archer and one spearman. Worker starts chopping a forest for Iron Sheep.

IBT: James Cook is born in a far away land
415 BC: Clearing forest created 36 hammers for Nidaros. Worker build road to Iron Sheep. Exploring units find nothing interesting.

IBT: Nothing
400 BC: Uppsala grows to size 5 and borders expand. Worker started farm for Iron Sheep. 6 turns to Construction. 2 turns to Pyramids.

Summary of key points to take forward:
1) We explored Mongolia looking for Khan's Weapons of Mass Destruction. We didn't find anything (other than Archers and a Trireme), but we know he has them so, godammit, we are morally bound to bomb him to the Abyss before he uses them.
2) We found the traces of an orange or red civilisation to the west but could not make contact.
3) We are 6 turns away from Construction, running at 80% science for +1 gold
4) Pyramids are 2 turns away. Hope my illtimed chopping does not cause us to miss by 1 turn.
5) We now have 4 cities to Khan's 7. Khan has no copper hooked up, but he does have lots of sheep.
6) There is plenty of work for our 3 workers as our cities have grown to be working some unimproved tiles.
7) The issue of the Barbarian city to the North to be dealt with.
8) We need to decide what to do with our work boat next.
9) We built a barracks and a spearman in that turnset and lost no units. Another spearman and an axeman are on their way.

This game is loads of fun and is at a fascinating stage. The floor is now yours, Thrallia.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Geezers_SG004_BC0400_01.CivWarlordsSave
 
thanks. I'll wait until Thursday to play it, but it looks like things are set up nicely.

I assume we are playing 10 turns each now?

I think we have the ability to take on Khan now, although I think we want to just build up our forces, research Alpha, and then see what we can get from him prior to declaring on him.

I'm cautious to actually conquer his cities. They'd lead to a massive amount of maint. costs thanks to the distance and # of cities we would then have. When we do declare on him, I think I'd prefer we just raze his cities and expand into them on our own time...but that will be a different turnset.

Cities
After the Pyramids are finished, I think Nidaros should build a worker or two, so that we can get started on our cottages. While it does that, El Dorado can either build more military or build that library we most likely want(after all, we'll need a library somewhere for when we get Literature so that we can build the Great Library)

Tech
I assume we are confirmed on Alphabet after Construction finishes?

Miscellaneous
I think we should keep exploring with the WB, and try to take out that barb city. Additionally, we need to start cottaging our cities. I think that's about all that could be covered in the next 10 turns.
 
Looks good. :goodjob:

Do we want to rush the pyramids ? Costs us 2 pop, but we are on the safe side. Would be a shame to be short by one turn.

I agree to alpha and building up our forces. Now that Nidaros comes back into play a lib in El Do might be affordable.

These are my first thoughts. Will have a closer look later.
 
I would be comfortable with a Pyramid rush given that we haven't whipped anything for ages so our population is not exactly running thin. We should be able to spare a pop point here and there now.
 
Yes. Whip them citz to get them Mids done on turn zero Please. Let the shields from the chop go for another worker.

Alpha is the way to go and then we need to focus on Optics. I tested out few maps with the game setting. Other continents are far away. We need the contact to speed up techs and to get the extra extra movement from Circumnavigation.

Is it too early to setup another city in the south as a GL farm? Or even the barb City using both food sources.
 
460 BC: Work Boat discovers new civilisation to the west, but don’t seem to be able to make contact.

This is probably because of the ocean between that civ and us.
 
Cities
After the Pyramids are finished, I think Nidaros should build a worker or two, so that we can get started on our cottages. While it does that, El Dorado can either build more military or build that library we most likely want(after all, we'll need a library somewhere for when we get Literature so that we can build the Great Library)

It might be worth Nidaros building a couple of military first. We don't really have that much military at present and we want some to take out that barb city. Uppsala already has a library and IronSheep is building one. I think there's a lot to be said for making IronSheep our GP farm city.

Miscellaneous
I think we should keep exploring with the WB, and try to take out that barb city. Additionally, we need to start cottaging our cities. I think that's about all that could be covered in the next 10 turns.

Certainly agree that we should send the WB to investigate Ghandhi's lands.

Do we want to rush the pyramids ? Costs us 2 pop, but we are on the safe side. Would be a shame to be short by one turn.

No major objection to rushing the 'mids although it'll be a shame to lose that production capacity. Should we switch to HR after the 'mids is complete?

Let the shields from the chop go for another worker.

That chop is destined for IronSheep's library.

Alpha is the way to go and then we need to focus on Optics. I tested out few maps with the game setting. Other continents are far away. We need the contact to speed up techs and to get the extra extra movement from Circumnavigation.

Optics is certainly important. It's quite possible that Gyathaar has deliberately put the rest of the AI on another continent or two. CoL is also important, not just for the courthouses but also for the Caste civic.

Is it too early to setup another city in the south as a GL farm? Or even the barb City using both food sources.

As mentioned above I believe that IronSheep would be a good candidate once those barbs have gone.
 
I agree that is important to have a pathway planned for meeting the other civilisations now that we have written off Khan as a major tech player.

I would also like to carry on the discussion on how we plan to make best use of our Vikingness and leverage our strengths:

Financial – I assume this means cottages, but what exactly do we need to do that is different from what any other civilisation would do? Just about all civs should build a lot of cottages.

Aggressive – again, how do we make the most of our Aggressive bonuses in a way that is different from other civilisations?

Beserker – when playing as Vikings, should we do more amphibious attacks?

Trading Post – do you use this to try and get circumnavigation first and develop a strong navy to cause havoc all over the world? Does the timing of techs allow for a strong navy + beserkers combo?
 
It might be worth Nidaros building a couple of military first.

No major objection to rushing the 'mids although it'll be a shame to lose that production capacity. Should we switch to HR after the 'mids is complete?

That chop is destined for IronSheep's library.

Optics is certainly important. It's quite possible that Gyathaar has deliberately put the rest of the AI on another continent or two. CoL is also important, not just for the courthouses but also for the Caste civic.

As mentioned above I believe that IronSheep would be a good candidate once those barbs have gone.

I suppose, we give Nidaros a chance to regrow after the rush by building some units.

I have no idea where the chop goes since I have not seen the save. But that is jsut as well.

I hope Gyathaar did not put the rest on a single continent. If so either they are going to be so advanced or some one is heading toward domination.

The IronSheep (is that what it is called :) ) has only one bonus food source but have the potential to be a production-commerce combo city. Would it not better serve at that function. Nidaros can be our production city for either navel or ground units with El Do and IronSheep being commerce (hence Science) cities. Iron city can either work cottages most of the time when not growing and when the need comes switch to high food and shields. The Barb city on the other hand probably can run upto 4 or 5 specialist with all that food. GL farm do not have to do anything else. But some cottages would be nice.
 
Which one is going to be our Science city? Do we have a Science city yet?

Also, I have been looking at the graphs of the other teams' performance. There seem to be some interesting graphs there that look different to ours. Is anything we can conclude from those graphs at this stage?
 
BTW Harbourboy, that was a text book (if there is one) execution of a crisis turn set even with the runaway chop. The patience you showed was very appreciated. :clap: Good Job. I just need to go look at it now.:D

Which one is going to be our Science city? Do we have a Science city yet?

At the moment, El Dorado-sala is our primary science city. It is contributing nearly 3 times as much as the Cap. To me a good science city makes alot of money, and has a Library and a monestary untill we can get more research buildings built. The differance between the commerce city and a science city is basically one has science multiplier building and other commerce. I have not made these type of cities. I always build the combination of the two and most of the times had good production capacity.

Financial – I assume this means cottages, but what exactly do we need to do that is different from what any other civilisation would do? Just about all civs should build a lot of cottages.


As a financial civ, we get an additional coin for each tile that has 2 or more coins. Lets look at a city with 10 river tiles with a cottage (built the same time and worked) and 15 turns to become a hamlet. By the time these become hamlets, the city will have made 10x15x3=450 coins for a financial civ while another civ will get 10x15x3=300 coins. This can be a major boon over other civs. This is why we want to build them cottages soon. If the cottages are not located on river tile, then we wont get the bonus untill it become a hamlet.

There is a major financial city site to the south near the old barb city Kahn liberated. We need to establish it the moment we kick him out of that land.
 
Are we sure we are moving? It has been mentioned several times but wouldn't it be easier to just take out whoever is next to Gandhi and let him expand on his side of the water? I'd hate to plan less then optimal cities because we are going to move and then end up stuck with them the whole game.

Sorry for the delayed response. But the wait helped. As you can see Gandhi's culture is already intruding upon our land and from the score, it look like he is doing well on his own already. Once he get bold, he is going to send units across the divide. This will only leads to war weariness for us mostly but also him. The sooner we can establish ourselves in a place far away from him the better. At the moment, Kahns land will give us what we need for the mid game. But I definately see problems with game progres if we actually start attacking each other. The only way I have seen fake wars cause problems is when we are at war with another civ.

This is the reason for us to get to Astro as soon as possible. This can be done fastest by using Great Leader or using the Liberalism sling.
 
Yes, whilst Khan is the immediate objective, naval power has got to be on the horizon pretty soon. Looking forward to how Thrallia handles things. I'm sure there will be more crises in that turnset as well. :)
 
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