SGOTM 04 - Geezers

Hmm, so how do we stand now then?

Minus one city and a tech nearer to Assembly Line. ;)

Seriously though we're in transition. We've given up our best cities to Ghandhi and we're trying to put our economy back together. Despite razing Old Sarai & Tiflis :sniff: Ghandhi has now founded a city N of where Old Sarai used to be. :confused: . Izzy's founded a city NW of Nidaros. :rolleyes: which should flip to Ghandhi in short order.

Now that we've got Communism I think we should start building Scotland Yard so that we can get a spy to look round Ghandhi's cities and see what he's doing before we give up all our old cities. Vienne's probably the best place to do this as I think it has the best production.

I'm not sure that we want to be building too much military in our new lands at present. I think some markets and banks might be a better idea so that we can get our research moving again.

Now that's Ghandhi's gold looks healthier it may be time to start conceding more cities to him.

Jenarie said:
I have a 2 year old birthday party tomorrow so won't be able to play until Sunday.

No problem. We probably need to review where we are and determine our way forward anyway.

EDIT: Having just checked the power graph I can see why we need a few more military to discourage opportunists like Izzy. However I still think we need a few more infrastructure builds rather than just military.
 
Might be better to, instead of building more military, gaining some gold to upgrade our troops to infantry when we get assembly line finished...upgrading will produce a big spike in our power rating.
 
Yeesh, nothing easy about this scenario is there? Don't the mods understand that we have all been trained to WIN at civ? ;)

Seems to me we have two strategic decisions to make:

1) Abandon our original homeland to Ghandi?
2) Focus on science or build military?

Of course, the answer to #1 will impact #2, if we abandon our homeland, then we will take a major science hit because we are generating so much commerce there.

RE: #1. Ghandi appears to need these cities more than us. Abandoning them increases the chances that he gets caught up. At some point, his commerce will be so strong that he catch up in tech even if he is focused on building military. Of course, the catch is he may get so powerful (and we get so backwards) that he wipes us off the face of the planet... i.e. landing MA's on our new homeland to attack our paltry Inf.

I think this decision boils down to risk tolerance, the team needs to decide if we are playing to win the competition (fastest Ghandi launch) or playing to survive and finish (live to see a late Ghandi launch). Abandoning increases the odds of Ghandi launching sooner rather than later, but increases the odds that we aren't around to see it.

As a non-playing member, not sure I should vote on this. I'll leave it up to all of you.

RE: #2. I think it will be imperative that we can wage successful war. First, to defend from Ghandi wupping up on us. Second, in case we need to knock one of the other AI's down. However, we need to remember that this is still a marathon, not a sprint. Key to being able to wage war later will be keeping close on techs. I'm with Sam on this, we need to rebuild our commerce engine in the new world. If we focus on beelining to military techs and make some judicious trades, I think we can keep up on techs. If we keep up on techs, our superior ability to wage war (i.e. the AI's tend to stink at it) will allow us to hold our own.
 
I do not think we should give any more cities to Gandhi now as he is just razing them. Obviously the maintenance is too much for him and it would just slow him down. IIRC he is now no. 1 in territory. If he now gets his pop going he should do quite ok. We should defend best as we can now. New Sarai should be a stop for him.

We should be quite careful as everybody has assembly lines, so infantries are around. We still have a number of cannons, but I would not like them to be spent on defense. :D
 
I do not think we should give any more cities to Gandhi now as he is just razing them. Obviously the maintenance is too much for him and it would just slow him down. IIRC he is now no. 1 in territory.

A counter argument is that both the cities he's razed were down in the SW & near Hanny. In addition he's also now founded a new city N of where Old Sarai used to be, so he presumably thinks he can afford additional cities. I'll be the first to admit that this doesn't prove he wouldn't raze New Sarai and our other cities though. :dunno:

We should be quite careful as everybody has assembly lines, so infantries are around. We still have a number of cannons, but I would not like them to be spent on defense. :D

True. I wasn't advocating a total cessation of military builds but rather a more balanced set of builds. The trick as ever is to get the right balance. ;)

EDIT: Another point to bear in mind is that these southern cities are costing us gold because of distance from the capital. I don't have the game open to check the amount but I assume it's a reasonable amount of gold. Because of the situation the normal option of a FP isn't available.
 
Now that's Ghandhi's gold looks healthier it may be time to start conceding more cities to him.

Does he really need lots of cities? I am reasonably experienced at suffering space race losses (not intentionally) and often, the one who launches their space ship first at these levels does not have a huge empire.

I still think we need survival and power first. Plenty of time to boost Gandhi's race later.
 
Does he really need lots of cities?

Possibly not. However at the moment it looks like his production is geared to military with his science in the doldrums. Letting him take our cities, as long as we can be sure he won't raze them :mad: , might get him on the right path (crosses fingers).

I think we want him to take those cities eventually. The real question is the timing. I've put my point of view on that but I'm not going to die in a ditch over it as I may be wrong. :crazyeye:
 
Nobody will know what the right path will be in such a game. When we played this scenario in civ 3 it was only one or two teams that got Gandhi to build Apollo.

Sam is right that the maintenance costs of our southern cities are quite high. My concerns are that if Gandhi keeps razing our cities other AIs build new cities there. I think Gandhi has enough land and cities. He has to get them going now.
 
Jenarie, play when you can. We are the most advanced team anyway,so we can take our time. BTW I like the pace and discussion we have here.
 
Well, I know I made my possition clear for a while but let me vote that I am not for giving G man any more cities untill we are strong in the new continent. As for the builds, why should we take one path, we can designate a few cities as production cities and use them to build military and others continue along infrastructure. One or 2 cities should continue building units at all times since we all know that we need to expand.

When we have better mil unit build capacity, I agree we should definately promote units we have but for the interim, we need to build more. Let us not forget we are on a permanent war condition in this game. Also Izzy is not sharing with Gandhi, our next outting should get us more land to southeast.:evil:
 
Looking at the team comments it looks as though the consenus is to deny Ghandhi additional cities until he can demonstrate that he's making good use of the ones weve already given him. The consensus also seems to be for a continuation of some military builds along with infrastructure builds. On the subject of builds I would like to push for a start on Scotland Yard, in a decent production city, so that we will be able to build spies.
 
I'm looking this over now will play a little later.

Questions:

Can we cancel some of the gifts to Isabela? We are gifting her horses, silk and marble atm. She has rice to trade and 1 gpt and we have silver or pigs still that she would want.

I'd like to cancel at least the horses - oddly... she has horses in the middle of her territory so she must be trading them away to someone else... found it she and Mehmed are trading a lot... more now then she's trading with Gandhi. Hannibal is the only one trading with Gandhi besides Isabela - and that is only one trade.

Anyway I'd like to cancel a couple of our gifts and if that is ok? Not sure if we get bonus for them for continuing them or if it was giving them to her in the first place? I thought I read somewhere that only the oldest trade counts to the "years supplying us with resources" bonus but not sure how that works.


Just noticed we can't rush anything anymore. I saw the civic changes but didn't really sink in at the time what that meant. :)


The little fort (above Birka) is cute I've never seen one before.


Doesn't look like research will change during my turnset. 13 turns to assebly line - which everyone else except for Gandhi has... lol we've worked too hard to be this far behind! :lol:


I guess my plan is to build buildings where needed and build troops everywhere else? From what I see building, it looks like cannon is the preferred troop build of the moment.
 
Can we cancel some of the gifts to Isabela? We are gifting her horses, silk and marble atm. She has rice to trade and 1 gpt and we have silver or pigs still that she would want.

I suppose the question is whether cancelling is likely to affect our relations. Marble can't be cancelled for another 8 turns anyway. Mind you I notice that the marble was given in response to a demand from Izzy. Personally I have no objections if we cancel the horses and silk.

Anyway I'd like to cancel a couple of our gifts and if that is ok? Not sure if we get bonus for them for continuing them or if it was giving them to her in the first place? I thought I read somewhere that only the oldest trade counts to the "years supplying us with resources" bonus but not sure how that works.

You and me both. :lol: Perhaps I'll have a hunt round and see if the details are documented anywhere.
 
We have a Great Engineer asleep in our capital (I moved him from Camulodunum). I couldn't find any mention of what to do with him since Mark commented right before my last turnset. I'm thinking maybe Statue of Liberty is tempting but there is still the thought of leaving him around to build the spaceship thingie for Gandhi later. Anyway leaving him but we need to discuss this - saving him is fine as long as that is the plan and not that we all forgot about him. :)

0) Turn 410 - 1790 AD

- Trade Isabela pigs for rice.
- Cancel Horse gift to Isabela. This will leave her without horses until she cancels her deal with Mehmed.
- Cancel silk gift to Isabela and sell them back to her for 1gpt to keep up the number of trades in case that matters. We'll probably want to renegotiate this one again in 10.
- Cancel Sheep to Mehmed for 3gpt which gives us sheep and sell one of our extra silver for 4gpt.

Trades in this game are odd. Isabela is gifting Mehmed coal and... he is gifting it right back to her???

IBT: Gandhi lands between Napa Valley and New Karakorum (two cannons and a musketman).

1) Turn 411 - 1792 AD

Vienne: Library --> Granary (4)
Bibracte: Market --> Forge (10)

Upgrade one troop in New Karakorum as it looks like Gandhi's troops are headed there but not sure if we can hold either city. We have only a spearman guarding Napa Valley.

IBT: Gandhi pillages corn by New Karakorum and bombards defenses to 48% He moves the musketman to pillage the spices next turn.

2) Turn 412 - 1794 AD

New Sarai: Cannon --> Cannon

Using newly upgraded rifleman in New Karakorum, attack the musketman on the spices (99.1% odds). Win and move back into the city to heal (12/14).

Verlamion: Theatre --> que'd Rifleman

IBT: Gandhi frigate pillages whaling boats above Bibracte.
Gandhi's cannon continues to bombard New Karakorum.

3) Turn 413 - 1796 AD

I accidentally (finger slipped when I was checking odds) attack a frigate at 27.2% odds and WIN.

IBT: Great Prophet is born in Bibracte. He's now having a tea party with the engineer awaiting orders.
Gandhi moves one of his two cannons over to pillage the Spices.

Gandhi frigate pillages fishing boats on clams outside of Verlamion.

4) Turn 414 - 1798 AD

Rifleman attacks Cannon on spices (71.5% odds).
Rifleman wins and moves back into Bibracte to heal (1.4/14).

Verlamion: Start workboat (6) for clams since city is starving.

IBT: Isabela adopts police state.
Gandhi sends cavalry and cannon south to pillage.

5) Turn 415 - 1800 AD

Vienne: Granary --> Frigate (3)

Send 2 Rifleman out to kill pillagers and win (cavalry @ 63.5% odds then cannon @ 76.5% odds)
Grenadier in New Karakorum attacks last cannon and wins (73%)

IBT: Isabela asks for Open Borders! Yes! She stays cautious but she's smiling! :)

6) Turn 416 - 1802 AD

Napa Valley: Cannon --> Granary (7) - city is unhealthy
Gergovia: Cavalry --> Barracks (4) - we have the military academy here so we should have barracks. We also have an academy here so we need an observatory as well.

Gandhi has been steadily moving up in score and is now second place to Hanibal. His power graph is still way higher then anyone else.

7) Turn 417 - 1804 AD

Nothing happened.

8) Turn 418 - 1806 AD

Vienne: Frigate --> Bank (14) - we have the Church of the Nativity here... if we ever have time to build missionaries we could make a lot of gold.

Camulodunum: Cannon --> Cannon (15)

9) Turn 419 - 1808 AD

Bagacum: Cannon --> Library (7)

Renegotiate:
Hannibal - cancel 5 gpt for corn and get 9 gpt for corn.
Washington - cancel 6 gpt for wine and get 8 gpt for wine.

10) Turn 420 - 1810 AD

Gergovia: Barracks --> Observatory (20) - may need to be changed

Renegotiate with Isabel:
Cancel - free marble & silk for 1gpt
Trade - silk for 2 gpt
Her standing with us is exactly the same as when I started 10 turns ago.

Gandhi has a lot of frigates running around. We probably need to increase our navy a little.

Assembly line finishes next turn.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Geezers_SG004_AD1810_01.CivWarlordsSave

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1790 AD to 1810 AD:
Spoiler :
Turn 412, 1794 AD: Geezers's Rifleman (15.40) vs Gandhi's Musketman (7.82)
Turn 412, 1794 AD: Combat Odds: 99.1%
Turn 412, 1794 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 412, 1794 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 412, 1794 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 412, 1794 AD: Geezers's Rifleman is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 412, 1794 AD: Gandhi's Musketman is hit for 27 (73/100HP)
Turn 412, 1794 AD: Gandhi's Musketman is hit for 27 (46/100HP)
Turn 412, 1794 AD: Gandhi's Musketman is hit for 27 (19/100HP)
Turn 412, 1794 AD: Gandhi's Musketman is hit for 27 (0/100HP)
Turn 412, 1794 AD: Geezers's Rifleman has defeated Gandhi's Musketman!
Turn 412, 1794 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Verlamion. Work has now begun on a Rifleman.

Turn 413, 1796 AD: Geezers's Frigate (8.00) vs Gandhi's Frigate (9.60)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Combat Odds: 27.2%
Turn 413, 1796 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Geezers's Frigate is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Geezers's Frigate is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Geezers's Frigate is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Geezers's Frigate is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Gandhi's Frigate is hit for 18 (0/100HP)
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Geezers's Frigate has defeated Gandhi's Frigate!
Turn 413, 1796 AD: You have constructed a Theatre in Bagacum. Work has now begun on a Cannon.
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Mahavira (Great Prophet) has been born in Bibracte (Geezers)!
Turn 413, 1796 AD: Mo Tzu (Great Prophet) has been born in Utica (Hannibal)!

Turn 414, 1798 AD: Geezers's Rifleman (16.80) vs Gandhi's Cannon (14.40)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Combat Odds: 71.5%
Turn 414, 1798 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: (Extra Combat: +20%)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Geezers's Rifleman is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Geezers's Rifleman is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Geezers's Rifleman is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Geezers's Rifleman is hit for 18 (28/100HP)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Geezers's Rifleman is hit for 18 (10/100HP)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Geezers's Rifleman has defeated Gandhi's Cannon!
Turn 414, 1798 AD: Isabella adopts Police State!

Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Rifleman (16.80) vs Gandhi's Cavalry (16.50)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Combat Odds: 63.5%
Turn 415, 1800 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: (Combat: -25%)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: (Combat: +25%)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Rifleman is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Rifleman is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cavalry is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cavalry is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Rifleman is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cavalry is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cavalry is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cavalry is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Rifleman has defeated Gandhi's Cavalry!
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Rifleman (15.40) vs Gandhi's Cannon (12.00)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Combat Odds: 76.5%
Turn 415, 1800 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 22 (78/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 22 (56/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 22 (34/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 22 (12/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Rifleman is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Rifleman has defeated Gandhi's Cannon!
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Grenadier (14.40) vs Gandhi's Cannon (12.00)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Combat Odds: 73.0%
Turn 415, 1800 AD: (Extra Combat: -20%)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 21 (79/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 21 (58/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Grenadier is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 21 (37/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 21 (16/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Gandhi's Cannon is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 415, 1800 AD: Geezers's Grenadier has defeated Gandhi's Cannon!
Turn 415, 1800 AD: The borders of Verlamion have expanded!

Turn 416, 1802 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Durocortorum!
Turn 416, 1802 AD: Gandhi has reduced your defenses in Verlamion to 16%!

Turn 417, 1804 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ning-hsia!
Turn 417, 1804 AD: Gandhi has reduced your defenses in Durnovaria to 20%!
Turn 417, 1804 AD: Gandhi has reduced your defenses in Verlamion to 8%!
Turn 417, 1804 AD: Gandhi has reduced your defenses in Durocortorum to 0%!

Turn 418, 1806 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Durocortorum!
Turn 418, 1806 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ning-hsia!
Turn 418, 1806 AD: Isca has grown to size 9
Turn 418, 1806 AD: Gandhi has reduced your defenses in Durnovaria to 16%!

Turn 419, 1808 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Durocortorum!
Turn 419, 1808 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ning-hsia!
Turn 419, 1808 AD: Deal Canceled: Corn to Hannibal for Gold Per Turn (5)
Turn 419, 1808 AD: Deal Canceled: Wine to Washington for Gold Per Turn (6)
Turn 419, 1808 AD: You have trained a Work Boat in Verlamion. Work has now begun on a Rifleman.
Turn 419, 1808 AD: Gandhi has reduced your defenses in Durnovaria to 12%!
Turn 419, 1808 AD: Gandhi has reduced your defenses in Ning-hsia to 0%!
Turn 419, 1808 AD: Gandhi has reduced your defenses in Durocortorum to 0%!

Turn 420, 1810 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Durocortorum!
Turn 420, 1810 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Ning-hsia!
Turn 420, 1810 AD: Deal Canceled: Marble to Isabella
Turn 420, 1810 AD: Deal Canceled: Silk to Isabella for Gold Per Turn (1)
 
Good set. :goodjob:

I am feeling more relaxed now getting infantries next turn. After that arties would be nice to have. :shifty:
 
I am feeling more relaxed now getting infantries next turn. After that arties would be nice to have. :shifty:

Physics is a pre-requisite for Arties. :p

Jenarie said:
We have a Great Engineer asleep in our capital (I moved him from Camulodunum). I couldn't find any mention of what to do with him since Mark commented right before my last turnset. I'm thinking maybe Statue of Liberty is tempting but there is still the thought of leaving him around to build the spaceship thingie for Gandhi later.

If we want to go for SoL then we should build it in our southern lands for Ghandhi to capture. Choosing that course means sending the GE back across the Ghandhi infested waters. :eek: However it might remind Ghandhi that he's supposed to teching and not making war. :rolleyes:

Not quite sure what we should do with the Great Prophet. We're not really interested in Divine Right. I think our next GP will be a GS from New Karakorum so we could save him for a golden age. Alternatively we could just settle him in Vienne.

I'll reiterate my call for Scotland Yard. Vienne might be a good spot to build it.

EDIT: Given the starvation in Verlamion I suggest changing the build to something more achievable like a barracks. Given our frigates by Verlamion are outnumbered 4 to 2 I suggest the next person moves them out of harms way on the pre-turn.

I'm a bit concerned that Izzy has switched to Police State and is scouting out our land. :eek:
 
Infantries will sort a lot of problems out. They can handle the heat all the way to the end of the game (well, if you have enough of them).
 
Good turnset Jenarie! :goodjob:

Good to see we'll have infantry soon, I agree with mark that physics>Artillery should be our next direction...Infantry and Artillery can handle modern warfare till the end of the game, as long as you grab Gunships to counter tanks.

I think we should use the GE either to build SoL or use him with our GP for a golden age. I think the GS is more worthwhile for lightbulbing, but I could be wrong...we may not have a city large enough anymore for it to be more worthwhile than a Golden Age.

I ditto Sam also on Scotland Yard in Vienne. We need to get it going so we can build some spies to check on Gandhi's builds. If we need, we can use them to disconnect any oil or coal he is using for building troops...that might discourage him from building modern troops and go for his space ship.

As for Izzy changing to Police State, I don't think it is for us, or she wouldn't have asked for an OB. I think she's looking for revenge on Hannibal...it might give us a chance to sneak attack her though, since Hannibal is willing to talk to Gandhi now that he is in FR.

Note to team: We should try to get Mehmed into FR as well, so he'll be willing to trade with Gandhi...doing that should turn Mehmed and Hannibal into worst enemies, slowing them down and allowing Gandhi to catch up.
 
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