SGOTM 04 - Geezers

[The-Hawk]

Izzy... Izzy... whatcha doing? We wanted to keep you alive as a Ghandi trading partner.

This is not a terrible situation. I think Izzy is in trouble. She didn't get her stack to Bagacum soon enough. Our reinforcements will arrive before she can attack. If we survive the initial onslaught of arty suicides, she is going to struggle with our inf.

I agree 100% with markh's suggestions. Just be careful when you move the rifles/grens to Bagacum that you don't leave them next to the arty after turn 1. No reason to let her suicide it against the stack.

I was contemplating killing the two isolated arty with grens from Birka. Better to off them now then have them suicide against our city. However, as it might take three grens per arty, the price seems high. I think I'd wait until I had some inf available to take them out.

Strategic: We will need to be thinking about which Izzy cities to keep. I would leave her alive in Visigoth (as a Ghandi trade partner), raze Barcelona (already under culture pressure as an Izzy city), keep the rest.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Civics : I am not sure what will be better nationhood or slavery, but we should change to one of the two.

Providing we meet the pre-requisites for drafting (Barracks & min size of 5 pop IIRC) in enough cities in our new lands I vote we switch to Nationhood. I don't think our cities really have enough pop and production to sustain repeated whipping in the timescale we need.

An exception may be in our southern cities in the motherland. We need to decide what we want to do there. Pillaging by Ghandhi is the last thing we want. Should we start giving up cities or do we actively attack Ghandhi's pillagers?

EDIT: Best of luck Harbourboy.

 

[Harbourboy]

1813 AD: Revolted to Nationhood. Moved some reinforcements to Bagacum.

IBT: Frigate near Ning Hsia destroyed by Spanish Destroyer. Infantry in Bagacum loses to Spanish Artillery. Infantry in Bagcum defeats Spanish Artillery. Infantry loses to Spanish Cavalry. Lots of pillaging takes place by Spain and India. Stack 2 squares from Bagacum has 15 units in it.

1814 AD: Moved rest of reinforcements to Bagacum. Upgraded a knight to a cavalry. Moved Ning Hsia navy into city out of range of Spanish destroyers/

IBT: Rifleman in Bagacum loses to Spanish Artillery. Grenadier in Bagacum loses to Spanish Artillery. Rifleman in Bagacum defeats Spanish Cavalry. Rifleman in Bagacum loses to Spanish Cavalry. More pillaging in both war zones. Hannibal builds Apollo Program. 15 Spanish units now outside Bagacum and another 9 more than 1 square out from Bagacum.

1815 AD: Anarchy ends. Draft 3 infantry in Bagacum, Verlamalion and Vienne. Use 2 cannon on 15 stack outside Bagacum. Unfortunately, this does nothing to all the mighty artillery there. Use a cavalry to take out a wounded isolated Spanish cavalry then return to Bagacum.

View attachment Geezers AD-1815.CivWarlordsSave

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Hannibal builds Apollo Program.

It seems clear who we will have to deal with at some point.

Use 2 cannon on 15 stack outside Bagacum. Unfortunately, this does nothing to all the mighty artillery there.

IIRC arty have +50% against other siege units. However the cannon seem to have weakened the other units. One way or another at least a couple of Izzy's arty look pretty poorly.

I think Vienne should be building military rather than a bank.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

If we intend to keep denying our southern cities to Ghandhi then I think we need to draft some infantry over there to kill off those cavalry before they pillage everything in sight. Of course we still need more infantry in our new lands.

Alternatively if we are going to let Ghandhi have those cities then we need to start getting him to take them before all the improvements have been pillaged.

Frigate near Ning Hsia destroyed by Spanish Destroyer.

So Izzy now has combustion.

 

[Harbourboy]

This is the point in time when my offline games start to go off the rails and I give up. It will be interesting to see how we get out of this because I will certainly learn something.

 

[markh]

Had a short look. Why aren't all the cannons from the other cities on the way to Bagacum ? Maybe I haven't stressed this enough, but that will be the key to hold Bagacum. If you constantly suicide the cannons on the stack all of Izzy's units are wounded and she delays attacks. That gives you time to get reinforcements into the city. Izzy already has reinforcements near and we have almost none.

My suggestions now : move all cannons from other cities to Bagacum. Draft infantries in all cities where you can still draft. Manage Bagacum for food, so it grows in 1 and you can draft again next turn.

Use the healthy cannon in Bagacum on the stack

Birka : Move the cannons and a gren on a safe route towards Bagacum to reach it in two

Camulodunum : Move the two cannons and 2 grens to meet with the cannons and gren from Birka on the hill right next to the iron where there is still one gren to reach Bagacum in two. The gren on the iron can also go to Bagacum. We do not need him hanging around there.

Bibactre : move the cannon towards Bagacum

Vienne : two grens can leave

Verlamion : send the infantry and all cannons towards Bagacum

Izzy can suicide 3 arties this turn. I hope the remaining cannon we can suicide on the stack this turn damages enough that she does not attack with all her almost healthy arties. This could be ugly and we might lose the city. Next turn she will have another arty and cannon there, so we have to have the reinforcements from Birka and Camulodunum in Bagacum.

That is my view on the situation. Maybe others can add something I forgot.

Good Luck HB.

 

[The-Hawk]

If we intend to keep denying our southern cities to Ghandhi then I think we need to draft some infantry over there to kill off those cavalry before they pillage everything in sight. Of course we still need more infantry in our new lands.

Alternatively if we are going to let Ghandhi have those cities then we need to start getting him to take them before all the improvements have been pillaged.

As Sam keeps reminding us, we can't ignore the situation at New Karakorum. We need to either abandon the city or spend some money to upgrade and kill those cavs asap. Having those towns pillaged makes the city useless to us (and Ghandi). The worst thing we can do is nothing. At the moment, I would think money for upgrades is better spent in the new lands fighting Izzy...

I still agree with markh 100%. All cities in the new world should be producing military, all spare unit moving to the point of conflict. Only city that needs to keep more than 1-2 defenders is Birka, so as markh suggested pull the cannons and gren only.

PS. It looks like we have a gren defending a mine west of Bagacum. I would think he would be more useful defending the city itself...

 

[Sam_Yeager]

As Sam keeps reminding us, we can't ignore the situation at New Karakorum. We need to either abandon the city or spend some money to upgrade and kill those cavs asap. Having those towns pillaged makes the city useless to us (and Ghandi). The worst thing we can do is nothing. At the moment, I would think money for upgrades is better spent in the new lands fighting Izzy...

I don't disagree with both mark and your view that the new lands should be top priority. I fully agree that 'doing nothing' in our southern lands is not an option. Personally I feel that we need to start giving up our southern cities. However we also need to resist Ghandhi as well, otherwise we will lose all our southern cities too quickly with the strong possibility that Ghandhi will raze some of them because he can't afford their cost in the short term. Another reason for not losing them too quickly is the impact on our finances.

 

[markh]

I totally forgot to write about our southern cities. I think we should defend them best as we can for the time being, so get rid of the cavs. After the situation in our new lands calmed down we might give more cities to Gandhi, but at the moment we cannot afford to lose more cities on both sides of the ocean.

 

[Harbourboy]

1815 AD: Anarchy ends. Draft 3 infantry in Bagacum, Verlamalion and Vienne. Use 3 cannon on 15 stack outside Bagacum. Unfortunately, this does nothing to all the mighty artillery there. Use a cavalry to take out a wounded isolated Spanish cavalry then return to Bagacum.

Rifleman in New Sarai kills Indian Cavalry. Rifleman in New Karakorum kills Indian Cavalry. So Gandhi either attacks now poorly defended city and dies or takes city. Either way, he does less pillaging now.

IBT: New Karakorum finishes: University => Infantry. Infantry loses to: Spanish Artillery. Grenadier loses to: Spanish Artillery. Grenadier loses to: Spanish Artillery. Spanish do more pillaging. Spain now have 24 units in vicinity of Bagacum.

1816 AD: Move units around to reinforce Bagacum. The one healthy infantry in Bagacum kills the one healthy artillery in the 14 stack. This may save the others from collateral damage next turn so maybe they will be able to heal.

IBT: Or not. Millions healthy Spanish cavalry appear out of nowhere up the Spanish railway. One healthy Infantry defeats Spanish Artillery. Infantry loses to: Spanish Artillery. Infantry defeats: Spanish Artillery. Infantry loses to: Spanish Cavalry. Cannon loses to: Spanish Cavalry. Cannon loses to: Spanish Cavalry. Cannon loses to: Spanish Cavalry. Cannon defeats: Spanish Cavalry. Infantry loses to: Spanish Cavalry. Infantry loses to: Spanish Grenadier. Cavalry loses to: Spanish Grenadier. Now 8 units in Bagacum versus 21 Spanish units in general area.

I think I might end my turnset here. If there is anything positive to be salvaged from this position, I think one of you others might be better equipped to deal with it. Let me know if I should upload save to official page for the handover.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I think I might end my turnset here. If there is anything positive to be salvaged from this position, I think one of you others might be better equipped to deal with it. Let me know if I should upload save to official page for the handover.

Please upload to official page. Don't feel that bad about how things have gone. S**t happens at times.

 

[Harbourboy]

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/Geezers_SG004_AD1817_01.CivWarlordsSave

Good luck to whoever's turn it is now. I am blown away at how much could change in just 7 turns.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I think this is how the roster looks:

Roster :

Sam - UP
Htadus - on deck
Mark
Jenarie
Harbourboy - just played
Thrallia - self skipped until June 11

 

[Htadus]

This is all my fault. I gifted Issy several resources including horses. That was an extreamly poor decision and I appologize to the team.

On to the current problem. We have a few drafts available and some of the injured units can be killed off with good planing. If we were to loose the city, we can take it back easily with our CR2 and 3 units. May be that is an option. But that will require her not razing the city. Too risky. I am willing to take the turn if Sam want me to. Again, I am sorry about all those cavs.

BTW Harbourboy, good job holding the cities.

 

[Thrallia]

We are not in Slavery. We also don't have artillery. It's Izzy who has the artillery even though the tech screen still says that she can research artillery.

The reason is because if we can't research Artillery ourselves, the HOF mod won't tell us that Izzy has it, because we can't trade for it. Obviously, she has it, but since we can't see it in trade screens, the HOF mod will claim she doesn't have it. Apparently, on review, we should have gone for Physics/Artillery before Communism/Assembly Line.

We can definitely get through this, and we may even be better off, since we'll hopefully add Izzy's land to ours.

I think we should give up cities in the Southern Lands to Gandhi whenever he threatens them. We cannot afford to focus on both him and Izzy, and since the goal is for Gandhi to win, not us, I think we should sacrifice any of the cities there to Gandhi rather than him pillage everything.

As for taking out Izzy's troops...if we can take out her stack, we'll probably be in good shape in our war against her, since that's likely all her available troops other than her defenders. She probably does not have any more artillery that are built right now, so any other stacks should be handleable by mass amounts of cannons

Sorry for going away at such a critical time! I wish we'd either finished, or been earlier in the game when I had to leave.

I believe in everyone though! We're a great team, and we can win(lose) this SGOTM!

 

[Sam_Yeager]

This is all my fault. I gifted Issy several resources including horses. That was an extreamly poor decision and I appologize to the team.

Well Izzy does have horses of her own anyway although she was trading them to another civ earlier IIRC.

On to the current problem. We have a few drafts available and some of the injured units can be killed off with good planing. If we were to loose the city, we can take it back easily with our CR2 and 3 units. May be that is an option. But that will require her not razing the city. Too risky. I am willing to take the turn if Sam want me to. Again, I am sorry about all those cavs.

Whilst it would be nice to take back my original spot I might as well carry on. Wish me luck.

 

[Harbourboy]

All the best, Sam. We'll be rooting for you from the comfort of our armchairs at home while you are fighting it out in the trenches.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Turn 427 - 1817 AD
See if Hanny or Mehmed might be interested in helping us and get the brush off. Hanny says he has cavs whilst Mehmed is keen to tell me he has tanks. Attack cav by New Karakorum (NK) with cannon from Napa. Cannon withdraws. Kill wounded cav by NK with rifle. Move cannons and grens from Verlamion and Vienne towards Bagacum.Lose cannon attacking cav by Birka. Kill the wounded cav by Birka with pike. Kill wounded cav by Bagacum with gren. Draft infantry from Bibracte, Camulodunum and Vienne. Upgrade 2 grens in Bagacum to infantry.

Spoiler Izzy stack - 1817 AD :

IBT:
Izzy attacks Bagacum and we lose 3 infantry, 2 grens, 2 cannons and a cav. Kill cav and arty.

Turn 428 - 1818 AD

Upgrade gen to inf. Attack cav by NK with cannon which withdraws. Kill NK cav with inf.Kill 2 wounded cavs by Bagacum with gren and inf respectively. Draft inf from Bagacum, Bibracte and Vienne. Kill another cav by Bagacum.

IBT:
Izzy loses 2 arty, cannon and gren attacking Bagacum. Lose 2 inf and a cannon (Patton killer) in defence. Ghandhi sends a pillaging cav from Sanchu & Uppsala. Lose village and workshop.

Turn 429 - 1819 AD

Upgrade 2 gren to inf. Attack Izzy stack with two cannons. Lose both but stack is weakened. Kill wounded cav by Bagacum with inf. Kill cab NE of Bagacum with inf. Draft inf from Isca and New Sarai. An Izzy destroyer appears by Isca. Hide frigate in Bibracte before it gets killed.

IBT:
Izzy's two arty by Birka attack our manned fort by Birka. One art dies and the other withdraws. Lose inf to arty in Bagacum. Lose fish by Isca as expected.

Turn 430 - 1820 AD

Kill final arty by Birka with inf. Attack Izzy stack with cannon. Cannon withdraws. Lose inf attacking cav N of New Sarai. Kill wounded cav with rifle. Kill wounded gren on coal hill SW of Bagacum with inf. Upgrade Bagacum gren to inf. Upgrade New Sarai rifle to inf.

Spoiler Izzy stack - 1820 AD :

IBT:
Lose 3 inf and 3 cannons in Bagacum. Kill arty and inf.

Turn 431 - 1821 AD
Kill cav by Bagacum with inf. Pillage Izzy's coal. Draft inf from Bibracte and NK. Trade silver to Hanny.

Spoiler Izzy stack - 1821 AD :

IBT:
The Bagacum defence kills two arty for the loss of 2 inf and 1 axe.

Turn 432 - 1822 AD
Kill 2 wounded cavs with inf. Kill wounded arty with inf. Upgrade axe to gren. Ghandhi sends two cav and a cannon towards New Sarai. Upgrade 2 rifles to inf. Spy a Ghandhi naval force (2 frigates, 3 galleons) near Verlamion. Hope those galleons are empty. :cross fingers:

IBT:
The crossed fingers didn't work. Ghandhi lands 2 cav, 5 cannons and 2 grens next to Verlamion. Ghandhi pillages quarry by New Sarai. Having just about wiped out Izzy's attack force three fresh arty appear by Bagacum. :arghh: Will nobody rid me of that woman?


I'm taking a breather from the action for a while. Verlamion is obviously going to fall, possibly to be razed. Whilst I could have coped with Izzy's arty reinforcement, I think I'm going to have problems trying to deal with Ghandhi's landing force as well. Any helpful thoughts would be appreciated. I'll continue the turnset tomorrow.

1823 Save

 

[Htadus]

Should we pull the granadir from Verlamion? Good luck Sam.