SGOTM 04 - Team VQ

GreyFox · Mar 22, 2007

We should stack up some spears as well. Attacking a HA with berserker is not going to yield good results.

At some point, we should probably chop away the coastal jungles as well ... the AI seems to love landing on those spots. Let's take it away from them.

I see I am UP, but I won't have time to play until I return (Sunday). So Maquis or bobrath can take it if he is inclined to.

namliaM · Mar 22, 2007

Yes I understand the Capitol is a nice target, but it puts us right dead smack in the middle of GK's territory. We could expect counters from either side, making for the need to split up our allready not-to-large stack.
Yes by attacking the 2 hill cities first we may well encounter bigger trouble than we bargened for. Otrar imo was the first logical target... but we may well walk around Samarqand and hit that eastern city first, rack up some XPs and come back for it later.
Normaly a capitol is a strong producer, but this Karakorum is a collection of FPs with near no production (to speak of imo). I am surprices he got the mids really!

Tonsberg will pay for itself soon, if we can get 1 or 2 cottages up (preferably riverside) + one Sugar (beeing worked on for a plantation). I had the workers that are now near Haithabu working to clear that riverside when the Kheshik & Chariot landed. I moved the workers before the landing (IIRC) to get them to safety and not risk GK landing some *&%&*%^ lucky on our defending Axe there losing the workers. Also we dont need the happy, really, the happy is way up over health all over... not a real priority in this case.

Bjorgvin didnt/doesnt have a Barracks yet, a shame to build units there imo. With pretty high food and hammers it seemed the logical place to get a settler out. Tho timing may have been off... but like I said it will pay for itself and start contributing to our empire real soon. We should be able to clear out that jungle in no time with all the workers we have now (+3 in my set, thanks Khaaan) and we will probably get more.

Settling near Bjorgvin is but a suggestion, but I think we should at some point in the (near) future. I know we are at war... but we need maybe 2 more Berserkers and 5-6 more Catapults before we are pretty much done with this war. BTW Nadiros can build a catapult in 2 turns

.
Less = more, as we are strapped for support costs (to many units). Tonsberg will help in that aspect as well (again once we can get some jungle out.

Losing the Berserker at 86% odds didnt really help our cause

But I didnt want the Keshik or Chariot to get the chance to pillage our sugars.

I did go for Samarqand, the gold city, but we are not really commited. The reasoning is this:
1) It is closest and will not get attacks from our backs
2) Close = fast reinforcements => Bigger stack sooner
3) With all the hill covered cities out of the way, the rest should be a walk in the park.

Tho I agree, maybe it is smarter to walk around it for now and head east or even go for Karakorum. Karakorum tho will find the need to split our stack to defend on counters from ALL sides, only north is relatively safe but anywhere else we can expect counters.

Edit after spotting Fox' post.
Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST) > Started war on Khaaan
Greyfox -- +8 gmt > Skip till sunday, pick up then
Maquis -- -7 gmt > The quiet man is UP
Bobrath -- -5 gmt > Probably play after fox?
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Still on Auto skip, speak up if you want back in the rotation!
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt

Edit2: @Fox
There are spears in that offensive stack both for cover against Keshiks and attacking against them.
Also we have spears in Uppsala, unfortunatly no spear(s) in Birka. That might be a good idea.

Cosmichail · Mar 22, 2007

Tho I agree, maybe it is smarter to walk around it for now and head east or even go for Karakorum. Karakorum tho will find the need to split our stack to defend on counters from ALL sides, only north is relatively safe but anywhere else we can expect counters.

AI tends to counter until they have nothing. My battle tactic is to sit in a defensive spot and let him attack until he peters out. Then move in on the target and counters will be minimal. If we have the right stack let's say 4 or 5 berserkers/5 cats/2 spears/1 cb and even 1 longbow with cd2 defense so once city is taken the AI has a hard time taking city back. I would too have just one HA in that stack to hit cats that approach since that is their strength.

Yes Karakorum has no defensive terrain other than units coming from the east would attack with -25% river attack. Berserkers do not consider river attack and can even attack across river with no penalty. I think it would have been less costly to our troops going for Karakorum then hill cities with longbows especially fighting with swords.

Either we are at war and build units or we are peaceful and build settlers. We can't do both??? We are running 100% science and losing 69 gold. We barely have any troops as it is so unit cost is hurting us?? I'd rather fight with more than enough than barely enough. There's a lot of Mongolian cities to raze/take and as Greyfox said we only have enough initially to take one city. So let's use the berserkers for what they do best and get them into the stack. (again your argument for Tonsberg is justified but units taking cities don't produce some money???) Why fight with such a "crappy" army. Let's fight with our UU and they too will pay for themselves.

Once Bjorgvin finishes forge I'd suggest barracks and get that city to build longbow to garrison the cities we intend to take so we don't have to tie up offensive troops. As to spices I wasn't worried about the happy as such but more food=more whip. Whip the crap out of Birka to produce what we need. It seems right now we need spears and yep anything less than 99.9% can be a loss so when attacking at even 80's is a risk. Bad RNG god but we should have been prepared in Birka with a few spears which were there.

My idea of a proper army:
7 berserkers/7 cats/2 spears with formation 1 cb or even two to counter other cb's and 1 HA for counter siege. (maybe even two)

Our army now:
3 swords of which two are very wounded
5 cats of which several are very wounded
2 spears with formation
1 chariot medic general

in the distance 1 cb/berserker (almost dead) and something else. Berserker on the way making our army very weak and needs to be improved even more so.

However you want to hold off on units due to cost factor but yet justify adding another city by the same argument which will pay for itself but is costing us now. More units=more cities taken=more plunder money. (sorry to hamper on this but I just don't get it. Settling is ok but building units is too costly??????)

We are at war let's build units that will do the job. Swords don't cut it.....

Ok one last observation:

First you say quantity is better than quality
then you say quality is better than quantity

Would you make up your mind already. I think more is better right now and unit costs isn't an argument imo (then we shouldn't go to war if that is the case). Meanwhile we miss out on 50% increase in production and commerce. Ok buro is a costly civic since they nerfed it but yet increase in commerce = more science. So going to buro might be the way to go in the long term. Short term no it would have hurt not being able to reinforce the stack. However we could have held off a fews turn and berserkers would be available in 3 turns with 33 overflow having second berserker in 2 turns. (i have to check on whether 50% is on base of 25 plus 25% from forge or just base of 25) That's why I built so many cats so when we could get the berserkers online we'd have enough cats to compliment it.

Also we have enough money to upgrade that sword which several other team members mentioned as a good use for plunder money. The swords that I'm thinking is in the battlefield with combat I/CR2 and should be upgraded before we loose him. When that berserker gets to the front I'd remove him and put him on our land so he can be upgraded. (i think it costs 155 gold). Once troops are reinforced enough turn to Karakorum and take that. Try to get a longbow there too for garrisoning.

How many turns are we taking now? I think you did 15 turns namliaM but I took only 10 as well as Scowler and others too. I would have liked to play 15 turns but again there is no input as to how many turns we are taking. I am fine with 10 or 15 but would have liked to have known so I could have played more if I wanted to.

bobrath · Mar 22, 2007

I feel your frustrations. I'll try to look at the save tonight and see if I can provide any feedback and thoughts, but in the meantime - I'll be looking forward to Maquis setting me up for the coup-de-grace.

Cosmichail · Mar 22, 2007

I feel your frustrations. I'll try to look at the save tonight and see if I can provide any feedback and thoughts,

Thank you Bob...look forward to it.

As to unit cost Total including unit supply is 22.

That is also inflated due to having troops in foreign lands.

The factor here is city maintenance so adding another city just adds to that.
City maintenance 28 gold.

Bjorgvin = -4.51
Birka = -5.40 (but paying for iself and then some)
Tonsberg = -3.35 costing us 2 gold per turn also added cities means more main.
Uppsala = -6.13 (also paying for itself)
Roskilde = -2.75 (almost paying for itself)

Although vassalage reduces unit support buro is still better in the long run for added commerce which would add 11 gpt to Nidaros.

Considering we can only run science at 30% with 7 gpt surplus adding another city is the last thing we should have done. Justifying it with oh it will pay for itself etc etc just doesn't cut the cake. (mmmmm cake dutch chocolate cake)

Again I ask namliaM what units???

Nidaros has one warrior guarding it and I bet we are the lowest in power too. Birka/Bjorgvin are adquately garrisoned due to pressures from Gandhi (we're talking only a couple of units) so again I ask "what units". Roskilde one unit/Uppsala a couple so overall how can we have too many units. Extra support cost is definitely due to being on foreign lands but that's to be expected.

The bottom line I think we simply weren't ready financially for war. Too many cities. We have currency but no markets we have COL no courthouses in the cities with high main. Nidaros/Haithabu are prime candidates for market. A wise empire would first secure financial ability to engage in war. Plunder only lasts for so long. Take more cities and we plunge into further negative so perhaps building a market in Nidaros first and then revolt to buro to gain benefit of 50% bonus. That would have kept our economy strong. We got currency during my turn now 25 turns later no markets.

Enough from me as I am frustrated so I hope Bob you will offer some guidance.

namliaM · Mar 22, 2007

Cosmichail said:
Yes Karakorum has no defensive terrain other than units coming from the east would attack with -25% river attack. .......

I didnt even consider that... :crazyeye:

(again your argument for Tonsberg is justified but units taking cities don't produce some money???) Why fight with such a "crappy" army.

Your crappy is my just enough...

As to spices I wasn't worried about the happy as such but more food=more whip.

IIRC Birka is allready at the pop cap with working the tiles it has right now...

My idea of a proper army:
7 berserkers/7 cats/2 spears with formation 1 cb or even two to counter other cb's and 1 HA for counter siege. (maybe even two)

That is (IMO) way overdoing it for taking down Khaaan we dont need 7! Berserkers no way... and no way we should wait to press on untill we have 7!
There is one or 2 "proper" defenders in each city. Taking down culture + 1 cat and 3 (max) Berserkers or swords even should be enough!

in the distance 1 cb/berserker (almost dead) and something else.

Something else IIRC is a spear, and distance is 1 tile away...
Tho healing is needed, I consider it another bad RNG for the Berserker to be damaged that much vs a Catapult... but thats live... *uhm* CIV.
If we do move to Karakorum or another city all (most?) the wounded should be healed by the time we get the culture down

More units=more cities taken=more plunder money. (sorry to hamper on this but I just don't get it. Settling is ok but building units is too costly??????)

I didnt say that... More is good if we are going to use them on the sort/medium term.
IIRC our next "push" was mentioned to be Galleons/Frigate + Grens. Thus... build now what we need now. That is just the semi-mini-stack and get back to improving our infra.... Courthouses are a good example of something we need BADLY!

[/quote]Swords don't cut it.....[/quote]
Considering the cost/benifit... Swords IMO would cut it...

Meanwhile we miss out on 50% increase in production and commerce.

I dont think the commerce is a much of a factor in Nadiros (yet)

So going to buro might be the way to go in the long term.

50% adds to the 25% of the forge. Thus it goes over the base 25 hammers.
Buro is definatly the way to go (soon?), with theo we still get +2xp for a total of 5 = CR2. Basicaly the 2xp from vassalage are "lost" xps and only go towards CR3 faster.

Also we have enough money to upgrade that sword

I try to make it a point to not upgrade something which can be build. Rather risk losing it than to "waste" money. But that is me....
Get them to CR3 and you have "my vote" to upgrade them ASAP

We havent had that much plunder yet tho... only the one and the rest was saved up by running 0% science.

IMO our forces are strong enough/big enough to start taking cities now, yes we are not as "over prepared" as usual but.... I think it is enough with just 2 LBs in (nearly) each city

From what I get we are on "10 to 15" depending on the circumstances.
So play 15 if things are going as planned or stop at 10 if you feel you need to... Or 6 like I did... maybe I played 2 sets?? :confused:

I see your frustration as well and share it at the sight of our underdeveloped economy and building 10 Berserkers is not going to help that...
Tonsberg IMO will help us get out of trouble sooner as it WILL pay for itself soon and contributes in unit support and GPT after that. -I think-
Where will we insert both units and infra? You cannot... 1 thing at a time.
Get that stack up to "spec" (what ever that is) but at a MINIMUM spec I think. The less units we build, the more infra we can get up faster.
But no units = No crushing GK = why did we/I go to war? I think all those cities of Khaaan, yes they cost maintenance but have nice Hammlet allready in place at 3 gpt each working 4 of them will allready make us money compared to the maintenance hit we take. Add courthouses.... and we are doing good. Get the FP up and we are set... -I think-

bobrath · Mar 22, 2007

If you can move a war along at a reasonable clip, then you can indeed support your economy with plunder profits. That does require however that you start with a reasonable size stack OR have a good train of reinforcing defenders coming afterwards. Once you start depleting your stack (beyond the normal death attrition), then your ability to continue warring at a good pace is much reduced.

I appreciate the thinking of "this city doesn't have a barracks so don't have it build units" and thus deciding to pop out a settler instead. Sure... I guess.... but we're in Theo + Vass for a reason - surely the missing barracks 2xp isn't that big of a deal especially if we're talking about follow on defenders and such. OR perhaps we could have spent those settler turns building the needed barracks? Bygones - building the settler was a valid choice, I'm just not sure that founding the city was a good one. Founding the city hurts in two ways (regardless of it paying for itself later): 1) takes units off the front since we need defenders, 2) bumps the upkeep for *every* other city up a notch. That's a dual hit to our ability to continue the war.

I'm partially trying to understand the logic so that I can improve my game, so please don't feel like I'm jumping down your throat. We all (workshop anyone?) make bad choices (Nara?). Lets look forward to see how we can remove the taint of Khaaaan from our borders. We do have one upside in this war - as we make the tour of his lands, we're not getting further and further from our core which means reinforcements can reach the front (and defenses) that much faster.

We jumped into war to get some workers and that's great. Now we need to make sure we come out of it even more ahead of the point we entered it.

Maquis · Mar 22, 2007

I got the save, here's my thoughts/plan:

1) Revolt to b'cracy. That will give us 42 :hammers:

in the capital. We then crank out 2 Berserker in 5 turns.

2) Do a little :whipped:

in cities that are not producing military, and start military production.

3) Turn off research: Why race to Optics? We've met the other AI, and someone else already circumnavigated. We need to use the money to upgrade our troops. As others mentioned, upgrade Swords to our UU.

I'll be playing in a couple hours, expect the report tonight.

bobrath · Mar 22, 2007

My desire for optics is to be able to explore that huge gapping black void to the north. (have we met everyone?) I do think its important to have some clue about what's out there.

namliaM · Mar 22, 2007

bobrath said:
I appreciate the thinking of "this city doesn't have a barracks so don't have it build units" and thus deciding to pop out a settler instead.

Well Tonsberg is a HUGE drain on our economy at 3.35 cost vs 3 income.
I checked back and the increase on city maintenance is from 23 to 28, 1 of which may be due to other cities growin..... But lets assign all 5 GPT to the cost of Tonsberg... Add the 4 food 3 coin Sugar in a few turns... and now Tonsberg is bringing in 6 coins vs our 5GPT cost.
Add a river Cottage of 3 coins (soon to be four) now its adding 9 coins
Add another river Cottage of 3 coins, now its adding 12 coins...
At +4 food the city will grow like a weed and the 12 coins will be reached pretty soon IF our worker force can keep up! Offcourse due to city growth upkeep in/for Tonsberg will have risen a full GPT (I am guessing here), still that is 6 cost for 12 income...

Size 1: 20 + 3 / 2 = 11.5 turns (assuming only +2 food before developing the Sugar)
Size 2: 20 + 6 / 4 = 6.5 turns
Size 3: 20 + 9 / 4 = 7.25 turns
It will take approx 25 turns for Tonsberg to grow to size 4 and start getting us 12GPT and more all the time. At the cost of 5 gpt, not counting the unit support it is providing....
Yes lets say we are now running at 5GPT cost and will only get 3GPT in return for the next 11.5 (12) turns. That is a cost of 2GPT * 12 = 24 GPT investment.
At which point (size 2 still, but working Sugar but no cottage yet) it will pay for itself.
At size 4 working the 3 cottages.... we are at +6GPT for Tonsberg (and growing!) I would say Tonsberg is a good investment (for the economy) at 4 turns return on investment (coin wize) even if it does cost us an Archer from Nadiros which wasnt using the Happy anyway and de archer for defence... well doesnt really help does it?

I am not to worried about the warrior in Nadiros... tho at some point we do need to reinforce that -a little- (understatement).

The same goes for the new city between Nadiros and Bjorgvin. Lets assume it costs not 5 but 8 gpt all over. Working 3 cottages at 3coins each will cover the cost and start earning us money.....

I can understand the (opportunity) cost of the settler and in retrospect beeing in Vassalage + Theo and building a Settler is not "good synergy" to say the least. :wallbash:

But settling Tonsberg IMO is better than keeping the settler sleeping. Building the settler .... meh... maybe a lesser choice.... tho it will help getting our economic feed back under us.

Upgrading the swords... Well... i guess it does save us building a couple more Berserkers, if we do upgrade the 3 swords (of which only 1 is wounded, not 2) and the 2 Axemen (1 of which is slightly wounded and has only 4 xp) we will have 7 Berserkers on the front lines allready. Adding 2 more that are in production, making 9. But we will have to 1) Withdraw to our territory or 2) capture samarqand first.
Sarmatian (Khaaan's most eastern city with the fish) is definatly a keeper. It has 4 grass tiles nearly Villages (16GPT) and is big enough to whip a courthouse from 0 when it comes out of revolt. Yes it may well cost 10GPT in upkeep... but still bring in 6GPT ... OR???
Hopefully a granary and/or a lighthouse will survive the capture....

Also remember (if the team agrees or even just you Maquis) to disband that sleeping trireme that is only costing us money and doing NADA for us in Isabella land.....

Edit: Yes Bob we met everyone...

bobrath · Mar 22, 2007

Gift it to Izzy? Why is the trireme stuck - OBs not there any more?

Wish I could pull up the save here at work (course then you could argue I would get no "work" done!), so all I have to go off of is the words here in the forums.

Cosmichail · Mar 22, 2007

Well Tonsberg is a HUGE drain on our economy at 3.35 cost vs 3 income.

Why do you say that? It is producing no income whatsoever Here's proof. Even at 40% towards gold can only produce just over 1 gpt. (1.20 gpt to be exact)

So I don't get the sarcasm here as 3gpt loss plus the penalty overall for city maintenance doesn't make it worth it.

Buro too you say not worth it but Nidaros base commerce is 23 so an extra 11 gpt. We can't even run science at 40%

YOU did say the following:

Less = more, as we are strapped for support costs (to many units).

(nonsense)

I didnt say that... More is good if we are going to use them on the sort/medium term.

Would you make up your mind already.

You contradict yourself in this and it's confusing at best. When someone states a "so called fact" (3 gold income) and it's not the case that individual looses credibility with me. When the team leader can't even deduce fact from fiction well that's enough for me to say asta la vista. Take me off the roster. I will find something better to do with my time.

EDIT: giving you benefit of the doubt mistaking science for gold but still am frustrated by your contradictions and sarcasm. Swords against lbm mmmm wait till GK get the necessary techs for maces and we'll see how well the swords do. Not how I like to fight but at some point you concur to upgrade and add more berserkers. Even Greyfox stated that army was barely enough to take one city.

LAST POST....

Maquis · Mar 22, 2007

hmmm... so, with a war in the thread?!?! There's a war in the game... I guess I'll start by making this short and sweet.

Things are not as bad at the end of my turns. We've got much more military now, and our homeland is being developed more...

I revolted to Bureaucracy right away.

After a bit of good luck (3 cats out of four withdrawn!) we take Samqarland. (Hopefully Bob doesn't consider it another Nara!)

After healing, sent east to Sarmatian. It too fell to the Berserker rage!

The stack that took Sarmatian is healing up there. My thought is to send them Southwest next, to Old Sarai.

I took care of lots of Gk's units, Keshiks, Crossbows, longbows... he tried sending pillaging units several times, but I dispatched of them, not allowing them to pillage.

I turned off research for most of my turnset, and have upgraded most of our units, all swords and axes are now 'zerkers. Have also built several units, and they are converging on Turfan (city to the east of Karoakum, which was hidden in the fog) I believe there will be enough units soon to take on the city. I have begin to bombard defenses there.

Right now we have enough gold to run 100% and get optics in 5 turns. I know that we fall a little behind on research this way, but I felt it needed to be done. No way we would get very far with obsolete units.

Here are the units at the city, and en route:

I think I have set bob up well to take Turfan and Old Sarai. Then we can march on Karaokum... :hammer:

Naidros birthed a Great Scientist, and I moved it to the gold city. Not sure if we want an Academy there? Otherwise, right now we can burn him on Philo... I left him... up for discussion.

Also popped a Great General on my last turn. Should also discuss what to with him? We could build a military academy in the capital?

Here's the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm4/VQ_SG004_AD1136_01.CivWarlordsSave

CFC TurnLog:

Spoiler :

namliaM · Mar 23, 2007

Buro too you say not worth it but Nidaros base commerce is 23 so an extra 11 gpt. We can't even run science at 40%

In relative to our current state of affairs I think the big bonus on Buro is the hammers not the commerce. Nadiros is not a great commerce city (unfortunatly) that some bureaucratic capitols can be.
No trade routes -to speak off- and no defelopped cottages -to speak off-, no river to make for +Coins... I am not sniffing at the 11gpt, just (meaning to) saying that it is relatively low.... not meaningless.
The biggest bonus from Buro is getting out 2 Berserkers in 5 turns... Or 1 catapult in 2 turns.

Would you make up your mind already.

Uhm... Maybe I should have said: I didnt mean to say that?? :confused:

You contradict yourself in this and it's confusing at best. When someone states a "so called fact" (3 gold income)

Income is more than just GPT, it is beakers and hammers as well... but we are (understandably so) most conserned about GPT

My Previous post said:
But lets assign all 5 GPT to the cost of Tonsberg... Add the 4 food 3 coin Sugar in a few turns... and now Tonsberg is bringing in 6 coins vs our 5GPT cost.
.....now its adding 9 coins
.....now its adding 12 coins...

Later I do switch to GPT which is a mistake on my part. But IMO a city is more than its GPT, beakers do count.... I would rather run 50% out of a 100 commerce vs 70% out of 70 commerce. While both yield ~50 beakers the first has much more potential than the second.

So yes Cosmic you are right at 40% towards gold it gets 1.2 GPT, while costing 5GPT a drain of 3.8GPT but is at that point also contributing 1.8 beakers.
At size 4 earning 12 coins it will be earning 4.8 GPT at the same 40% (towards gold) and contributing 7.2 beakers.
Once the 3 cottages become hammlets: 3 More coins. 1.2 GPT + 1.8 beakers, making 6 + 9 respectively.
Work another riverside cottage, 3 more coins. Now 7.2 + 10.8 repectively.
That is at size 5 working 3 hammlets and 1 cottage and ONLY getting better.

that's enough for me to say asta la vista. Take me off the roster. I will find something better to do with my time.

I sure hope you will reconsider??

Swords against lbm mmmm wait till GK get the necessary techs for maces

Swords vs Maces = no fun and you know it...

Looking at the save....
- Probably a governer desiding it, but we are running an engineer in Bjorgvin?
I think we want to work a cottage or even a 1food/2 hammer hill? Over the engineer....
Also an Engineer in Uppsala...
- Why grow Tonsberg at +7 food (taking the Corn from Haithabu) with nothing to work while Haithabu is on stagnate not beeing able to work the Cottages?
- We have a visiting Xbow near Birka! from Gandhi that need dispatching...
- Now 8 berserkers + 8 Cats... that makes our army :goodjob:

- Starting some Courthouses :goodjob:

- Nadiros is working an unimproved grass... :sad:

But that is due to Gandhi's visiting Trireme...
- HE in Nadiros, wowsers... 2 Zerks in 3 turns anyone? Good call I think
Maybe a market in this situation would have been another option?

All in all a job well done Maquis... :goodjob:

Burning the scientist on Philo will net us 1794 beakers.
At 100% Haithabu will generate 28 (raw) beakers = 14 beakers for the Acadamy.
Nadiros is doing 36 (raw) beakers = 19 from the acadamy.
Or ... Not burning him will take roughly 100 turns (at 100%) to earn back. Seeing as Taoism is allready taken and we dont really need Pacifism anytime soon I dont see a need to burn him on Philo.
If we wait to research paper we can bulb him on Education getting something like (IIRC) 2500+ beakers towards that. But we would want to get it ASAP so we (still?) have a shot at Liberalism or has that ship sailed???

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST) > Started war on Khaaan
Greyfox -- +8 gmt > Skip till sunday, pick up then > On deck
Maquis -- -7 gmt > Solid set

Bobrath -- -5 gmt > UP
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Still on Auto skip, speak up if you want back in the rotation!
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt

Edit:
GG I think goes as an Instructor in Nadiros, we could then revolt (back) to OR and still have Nadiros provide us with units at a comfertable rate and at 5xp.
Acadamy, we dont have Education => Not an option.

Edit2:
We could (if we delay paper and research/trade Philo) bulb chemistry with the GS... This would allow for an early Chemistry => Grens ... => Major war time to cut down Hannibal and some others?
Offcourse we would still be miles from Astronomy for them Frigates.

Maquis · Mar 23, 2007

Probably a governor deciding it, but we are running an engineer in Bjorgvin?

Yes it was the governor. I tend to get a little :smoke:

watching the cities when my main focus is war. (Call me a thick-headed warmonger!)

Why grow Tonsberg at +7 food (taking the Corn from Haithabu) with nothing to work

There are several workers there, and yes, Tonsberg needs a little management. I was getting it growing - the sooner it grows, the sooner it pays for itself! Since so much has been pointed out how much of a drain it is on our economy :gripe:

HE in Naidros - Under the Beurocrats, we can just churn out units here, and put other cities on other builds (couthouses! markets!)

I do admit, I was thinking we could build the Academy in Naidros as well, I guess I should have payed attn to the education requirement :mischief:

Hopefully we are set up well enough to take Khhaaaaannn out now. Long term, I think Forbidden Palace should go in Karaokum?

Not that I feel I need to defend myself, but I turned off research to make this war viable. Had I not done this, I would have been lucky to even take Samaq. No way would have had the firepower to fend off GK's counterattacks and take both cities.

Also, sorry to leave on an "uneven" year. I had to play that 11th turn so that I could take Sarmatin. :devil:

namliaM · Mar 23, 2007

Maquis said:
and put other cities on other builds (couthouses! markets!)

Henca also my suggestion to revolt to OR, Nadiros should be able to pause building units at some point to get a bit of infra going there as well.

much of a drain it is on our economy

Hopefully we are set up well enough to take Khhaaaaannn out now. Long term, I think Forbidden Palace should go in Karaokum?

I think a couple more Cats and the Zerk(s?) in production now should cover the war.
Just make sure to get some units (LBs/Xbox?) for City Garison.

Not that I feel I need to defend myself,

And you shouldnt we are all (I presume) trying to get the best out eachother and the game, while trying to learn.

I had to play that 11th turn so that I could take Sarmatin.

10-15 turns... 11 is just fine

namliaM · Mar 24, 2007

Roster Update
namliaM -- +1 gmt (Actually 0 atm due to DST) > Started war on Khaaan
Greyfox -- +8 gmt > allmost sunday, if bob doesnt get it will you?
Maquis -- -7 gmt > Solid set
Bobrath -- -5 gmt > UP
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Still on Auto skip, speak up if you want back in the rotation!
Scowler -- gmt
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt

bobrath · Mar 24, 2007

Got it - should have report and such up later tonight (in time for GreyFox to pick it up)

bobrath · Mar 24, 2007

Where to start... I did as requested and captured Turfan and New (not old) Sarai. I got rid of any engineers that showed up and managed to get some defenders to relieve our offense. Oh yeah, and kicked Ghandi's but out of a new city he settled with a single sword defender!

Discovered paper (and now 6 turns left on optics). Our GS will give us 2511 beakers (of 4036) towards education, but Hannibal got liberalism in the middle of my turns. Not all the civs have education (heck 4 don't even have paper - tho two are Ghandi and Khaaan). I would suggest the next player trade paper to Mehmed for his best offer which should get us Drama (tho everyone has that already). We won't get much better offers. Picking up his world map in trade might make ours worth enough to other civs to make some cash off map trading. GW is a cheapskate and won't give much of anything for Paper, so screw him.

Khaaaan will give us optics, gold, gpt and his world map for peace. Either we take that offer now and rest up for the last push (tho he now has CS I think) OR we take out his capital and see if we can get anything better from him - remember his capital has the pyramids.

I kept New Sarai (grudgingly), but I raized Turfan.

Yes, I know there are towns and villages around there, but frankly the culture of the capital was stifling, we had no defenders even remotely close AND it was 1 tile off the coast. After clicking the burn baby burn button I realized I should have done a quick check for wonders. Ah well. We can resettle a better site later when our economy isn't limping along.

Currently we're at 50% with a slight loss of ~15gpt. Courthouses are still in progress. Note that the Trading Post in New Sarai should be whipped the moment it comes out of revolt to put those angry citizens to use.

Oh! At the start of my turns, I did some pretty hefty resource trading. corn and sugar were traded to mehmed and brennus for clam, cow, crab, and rice. A few turns later I got a total of 17 gpt from the two of them for gems and gold (one to each). We've picked up some +1s for the ten turns of trade, but more importantly (to me) is our health problems are much less. WW is showing up now so the sooner we can end the war with Khaaan the better.

Ghandi controls all our seas and I didn't really see reason to contest that - negative proposition for WW and income. Better to apply builds to land units.

The Great Gen was taught to be an instructor in Nadiros and along with the HE its a military beast now.

One pop up of note during my turns was size based:

This was prior to my capture of the two mongolian cities btw.

Here's the front with Khaaaan:

There are 2 spears of ours in loner positions and Khaaaan has a crossbow on the horses (we disconnected his northern iron with the dual city caps.

Khaaan Smashing??

The CfC Autolog

Spoiler :

GreyFox · Mar 25, 2007

Looking good, wonderful turns, bob. I will get to it tonight, or tomorrow, depending on whether there is controversial discussions

I wouldn't burn the scientists ... I would build academy in Nidaros (now, this is the one I expect some arguments).

I wouldn't get peace with Khan, no until we capture Karakorum (maybe + old Sarai and Beshbalik as well :cooool:

). We do need to get our super medic to the front as soon as possible though.

There are a few city and worker management glitch that I will correct (eg worker chopping jungle not in our BFC, Tonsberg stealing corn from Haithabu, Nidaros having angry citizen, etc).

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