SGOTM 04 - Team VQ

namliaM · Mar 31, 2007

OK Scowler, I gots it....

namliaM · Mar 31, 2007

Well I have played some turns (4) and I have taken peace with Khaaan for Banking we now have the option to revolt to Merc if we want.
Merc + Representation is a nice option.... We have happyness to spare (+9 in Nadiros for example) now that the WW is gone.

With our OBs and traderoutes to other civs (appearently possible dispite not having OBs with both Khaaan and Hannibal) we are bringing in a total of 74 raw commerce. If we go to Merc each trade route will drop to 1 gpt (maybe a single 2 in there). Dropping the raw commerce to 26. A difference of 48 raw commerce, we can run 50% science at -6gpt right now. So that translates into 24 beakers.
Now figure in we have 6 libraries and lets assume (I didnt check) they are in the top 6 trade route cities. Our top 6 have 41 commerce from traderoutes, which would drop to 12. 29 difference @ 50% science = 14.5 @ 25% lib bonus = ~3.7 beakers a turn. So that is about 28 beakers (sustainable research rate).

Now dropping to Merc will lose us that, but also lose us some economic support. The other part of the 50% is 24 GPT, this 24 GPT will cause us to drop back to 40% research rate (most likely) as we will be at -30GPT at 50%.
At 50% we are making 210 beakers, 28 of which is from the traderoutes. 182 beakers are from cottages and stuff, local commerce.
182 / 50 = 36.4 beakers, for every 10%. So in total we lose 36.4 + 28 = 64 beakers.

Merc + Representation will gain us 15 free specialists * 3 BPT = 45 BPT
6 of which will be able to be scientists (we have 6 libs) 6*3 = 18 BPT
6 Libs 25% * 6 * 6 = 9 BPT lib bonus on the specialist beakers.
Then we have 2 artists allready in Birka: 2*3 = 6 BPT
TGL scientists in Nadiros: 2*3 = 6BPT
GG do they count as a specialist for Representation?? I dont know but wont count him.
For a total gain of 45 + 18 + 9 + 6 + 6 = 84 beakers.

Is this worth a 3 turn revolt???

We can also throw in Pacifism for without increasing the revolt time. This would double the GPpoints beeing generated -everywhere- but mostly in Nadiros where we are allready at 10, going to 20. Getting faster bulbing and/or other GPs.
How does pacifism work with the +1 GPT upkeep on units??? IIRC it only costs on support right? i.e. only if units are outside of your borders.
If it is OR is not good enough for 3 turns to Merc + Representation, is it good enough maybe to go to Merc + Representation + Pacifism??

Or just revolt to Representation (for 2 turns of revolt IIRC) to gain the 12 beakers from specialists we are running anyway?
Rep + Merc gets us 20BPT more at the moment tho that will change in the future where it will be reverse, but when?
Adding Pacifism... how much is that worth? Or how much does it cost us, i.e. losing OR??
Just revolting to Representation over Monarchy will gain us 12BPT, so also switching to Merc will get us "only" 8BPT.

Oppinions?

Edit: I will make a full report of the first four turns in my total report, but I have uploaded the save just in case anyone wants to look at it....

Spoiler Upload log :

Cosmichail · Mar 31, 2007

GG do they count as a specialist for Representation?? I dont know but wont count him.

Yes they do. Will add 3 beakers like any other specialist.

Personally I am not in favour of Merc and would prefer to go with just Representation. Pacifism is going to be way too expensive as we need to go for Hannibal next and that means a very strong army.

My latest thoughts on this game:
Gandhi is weak and won't win the space race as is.

How do we do that? I think we wipe everybody off the face of the planet and just Gandhi and us remain. Shut down science get Grenadiers/cannon/frigates/galleons and go nuts. First victim Hannibal - second GW. Just like SGOTM02. Since time is of the essence we couldn't effectively do the true Sirian doctrine (need aircraft carriers) but a version of it and just hit the weak cities first. CR3 cannons are great amphibiously and we can produce them off the line in Nidaros. (need to double up on vassalage/theocracy again)

I don't see any other way and PS we should raze mostly so that lands opens up for Gandhi but of course other AI will approach but those we'll have to sink.

If this sounds out there well that would give Gandhi all he needs. Again just ptiching here but lets get into the big picture and set him up.

namliaM · Mar 31, 2007

How are we going to get Amphib CR3 cannons? Isnt that like 26 XP or something?

I think you mean CR3 Grens upgraded from CR3 Zerks. And we have 4xp from the Civics, 3 barracks and 2 instructor. This leaves us 1xp short I think?? for CR3?

I agree that Gandhi is in some deep whole if he is going to win this space race.... Tho I dont know about whiping out everyone now... To early I think...
But they do need some slowing down atleast and hannibal in particular.

Setting up a secondary core on the mainland will help a lot in our favour and Gandhi's... IF we can take over AND kill Hannibal take get the FP into some central city there. Add maybe GW's lands... We can start starting over for when Gandhi desides to land new units against us... IF he does. Once he has like 3 or 4 cities up and running on our side, he should come a running.

On the other hand it IS a gamble... and a big one at that. Razing everything (maybe not killing but razing a lot) will slow down the other AI and allow Gandhi to settle Abroad...
BUT HOW will he do that??? I mean the AI is likely to build the FP in its capitol if it could, giving it no use at all.... If we can get Gandhi to take over our lands he would get good developed lands with low upkeep, shooting him straight up there.... I think... But... *peacefull* gandhi... when is he going to come?

I liked Merc a lot when thinking we didnt have the trade routes... Then I spotted the GPT raze when I made peace... and went calculator and wasnt so sure anymore......
Remember tho, once we do go back to war with Khaaan or Hannibal... we lose the trade routes again unless we have astronomy by then. Astro IS up there on prorities for Frigates and Galleons, but it is a 21 turn research goal. 5 Turns left on Chemistry...
Any GS we MAY get will burn on PP if we research PP (13 turns) it will burn on Astronomy.

Cosmichail · Mar 31, 2007

I do mean CR3 cannon without amphibious promotion. Sirian's doctrine does it with artillery but works with cannons too. It is a method to weaken the units if odds are too high against CR3 gren. But if we have a few with CR3/combat/pinch they will take out defender without use of cannons.

I have played Sirian's doctrine ad nauseam. Normally you use aircraft to weaken defenders but too far away cannons will weaken with not bad odds.
Very much depends on defender too and CD3drill are brutal but CD1 and CD2 can be dealt with. Amphibious attack is very fast and can go from city to city razing away.

Just open up some lands Gandhi is bound to show up. I do concur that it's better he have our lands but we'll need them for a bit. I find the Viking raider method does not allow much for garrison ergo cities need to be razed. We need to blitz from one to another to maximize output.

I sometimes take out every defender except one. Then let AI scramble to reinforce. Do it several times and move on to another city and repeat. That really weakens them and makes the landing all that much easier once you decide to go for the inner cities. This method I have found also confuses the AI as to where to send troops. Less likely they will try to make a landing on our land when they have trouble ascertaining where to fight.

namliaM · Apr 1, 2007

I start my set with some good old MM work...
Science rate is set to 0% we are running at a negative and cannot hold this research rate. We will run at a loss of 191 gpt at 100% and Chem is then due in 4. Also we will the extra uni in Nadiros by then

, at 0% we are at +84 GPT

needing some 800 to run 100% for 4 turns. So I will be running 0% for a while.
After MM-ing the 84 goes to 92 GPT, not to spectacular.

Nadiros has plenty of

left over, work the lake over a Plains mine. Also Start a galley as we are running 0% anyway. We need the galley for Transporting troops a little later on.
Haithabu works a mill instead of the plains mine. Here to Way many

left over, grow, grow, GROW.
Roskilde, Mine to a cottage
Birka Hire a second artist.
Tonsberg whips the courthouse and starts on a Forge
Karakorum is at (or near to) the happy cap due swap the Corn to Horses
Old Saria, use the Karakorum Corn and some cottages, start forge

Those are the bigger things anyway....

Brennus finishes the Taj Mahal in 1352 AD, that same year I try to clean up the Trireme that is blockin our galley(s) from Nadiros. Our Caravel fails at 76% but a galley cleans up the remains. Oh I forget about a deal I made with Isa, Copper for Fish Dye and 4 GPT...

Khaan had been kind enough to start causing colatorol damage by attacking with a few Trebs from Ning-Hsia, but once the super healer Knight got there the damage was repaired quickly. The culture was bombed and Ning Hsia finaly taken in 1364, where I signed peace with Khaaan and stopped.
We got banking, WM and 10 gold out of Khaaan and offcourse he wanted to capitulate, but I didnt accept that.

I think it is best to not revolt to Merc. And the talk of preparing for Hannibal and revolting to Vass + Theo caused me to not revolt at all. We need to plan a little I think to get the best out of revolting, while getting the most out of it. So I didnt revolt.

I did a little song and dance with Gandhi too, as he showed up with some units on our lands again.

The Musket succeeded in pillaging the Northern most Gems and killing a XBow in the mean time, I didnt dare attack it as odds were very low. After it killed the Xbow it was badly damaged and the Zerker cleaned up. This same Zerker killed the Longbow, eventually the Maceman and Treb went back inside and are still hiding there. 2 Workers are in place to remine it.
The % ownership on those tiles is increasing (slowly) with 2 artists in place. Maybe we should get a Missionary (Judaist?) from down south Khaaan lands to Birka so we can add another Monastary?

We popped another GS, just as we were about to get Chemistry. I didnt quite know what to do about him, so I desided to freeze research (0%). Buying me just enough time to get to the end my turnset.

We can make an Acadamy in Nadiros for a boost of 16 (sustainable) bpt or 32 bpt at 100% which we can run for a bit... as we now have 916 gold in the bank.

Or an Acadamy in Haithabu for a mear 9 bpt (sustainable). Haithabu needs to groooooow folks all these cottages not beeing worked

Or he can bulb PP at this time (dont do this I think)...
Or we can research PP next (get a nice research bonus on that) and burn the GS on Astronomy which is only known to GW at this time and we dont get any bonus for researching it. While the GS will give the same # beakers 2500+ IIRC.

Do we want to settle a city there? and/or do we want to allow Hyderabad to excists there???

Handover notes:
- There are some Caravels of Gandhi on our (northern) east coast look out for them.
- There is a missionary on its way to Nara.
- Do we want to start the FP in Karakorum next? Or keep that for a city in Hannibals lands?
- We want to get some galleys to Khaaan's neighbourhoud so we can take him out. Maybe build some in Khaaan former cities?? As they are not yet "blocked" by the Caravels of Gandhi.

Good Luck

Roster
namliaM -- +1 gmt > Banked us
Greyfox -- +8 gmt > UP / On deck
Maquis -- -7 gmt > Get ready cause here it comes

Bobrath -- -5 gmt
Healium -- +1 gmt -- Still on Auto skip, speak up if you want back in the rotation!
Scowler -- gmt > UP / On Deck
Frankcor-- -5 gmt <Lurker>
Cosmichail -- -5gmt

I think it is going to be a while before Scowler can take it inside the rotation, but he mentioned beeing able to take it during the week someplace. So I put both Fox and Scowler UP. Who ever wants it, takes it.

namliaM · Apr 1, 2007

I forget to upload the save

Spoiler Upload log :

Cosmichail · Apr 1, 2007

Wow where is everybody???

I'm glad you didn't go into merc as I hate seeing trade routes go for a crap. Although I like merc under the right circumstances and that when an empire's cashflow is good.

I'm glad you agree on Hannibal or are considering it (although you brought it up some time ago). We need to get rid of him like now otherwise we are facing infantry soon. He's teching alarmingly fast and needs to be stopped. I could say the same for GW but Hannibal has steel and who knows what else.

How about some input guys as to what the team should do from this point.

GreyFox · Apr 1, 2007

Don't worry, I am here, I am here. I don't any reason why we should go and raze that Indian city Hyderabad (again). Eventually, we are going to concede most of our northern cities to Gandhi anyway.

Yes, we should try to hamper Hannibal and GW ... whoever that can threaten our dear baldy's road to Alpha Centuri. But that's better done after we clean up GK, and have astronomy, me think.

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namliaM · Apr 2, 2007

I agree on the Astro part, tho we should be able to get to Khaaan before then.
But how do we go about it?
Get PP and Bulb (part of) Astro?
Go straight for Astro? And do what with the GS? Bulbing PP is a waste I think. Keep him for Physics?

I think long term we should be trying to look towards infantry ourselfs, skip the upper part of the tree where possible.

Oh and I do so totaly agree.... We need to do something about Hannibal very soon.

Cosmichail · Apr 2, 2007

Again we need to research Astro manually. I too find lightbulbing him for PP is a waste and maybe save him for Physics. Something tells me though we won't be the first there.

We should get Astro next so we'll have the frigates and galleons. It would be nice to get steel before we go for Hannibal as I'm sure when we attack him he'll hit hard with cannons. That to some degree rules out a landing but more an amphibious approach. I don't think we should wait until steel is discovered as Hannibal will be too far ahead of us. I say we get ready once we get Astro. Khan only has 1 city left right. So finish him and keep those troops moving towards Hannibal. I think once Hannibal is neutralized the overall teching will slow a bit and Gandhi certainly will manage well enough on his own with that capitol.

Perhaps buiding a few more galleys may help to get the instant galleon with upgrade. We don't need rifling for a bit and should keep the ability to build berserkers for a while. When we do go to war mode getting CR3 berserkers would be a big help in battle. Considering going back to vassalage/theocracy for the XP points. I don't like vassalage personally and westpoint would offer a nice solution but again we don't have the tech. Adding another GG to Nidaros may solve that problem without having to go to vassalage. Personally I hate to loose the buro bonus and Nidaros is the prime producer anyways. Remember if we get to fascism first we can get a free GG.

So who's playing now???

GreyFox · Apr 2, 2007

I will most probably get it this evening. Didn't want to post a got it before then in case Scowler happens to be able to play. And Cosmic, you are awfully early (or late).

GreyFox · Apr 2, 2007

Got it ........

GreyFox · Apr 2, 2007

Played 1 turn, I don't understand something: Why do people say Printing Press is not worth lghtbulbing? It gives a decent +1 commerce to villages, and the GS will cut printing press to at most 3 turns (from 10 turns). Unless we want to build the Academy in Nidaros, else the scientists will refuse to lightbulb anything other than PP. Astronomy is 17 turns away, I don't see how an extra 3 turns to gain us printing press is going to cost us anything significance.

So, question is whether to build academy or lightbulb PP. I don't see any other alternative. lightbulb gave us 2700+ beakers, Nidaros is currently producing 59 beakers (with 50% lib+uni boost, I think). So academy will gain us 30 more beakers, whch take 100 turns to break even.

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namliaM · Apr 2, 2007

My Log said:
We can make an Acadamy in Nadiros for a boost of 16 (sustainable) bpt or 32 bpt at 100% which we can run for a bit... as we now have 916 gold in the bank.

Or an Acadamy in Haithabu for a mear 9 bpt (sustainable). Haithabu needs to groooooow folks all these cottages not beeing worked
Or he can bulb PP at this time (dont do this I think)...
Or we can research PP next (get a nice research bonus on that) and burn the GS on Astronomy which is only known to GW at this time and we dont get any bonus for researching it. While the GS will give the same # beakers 2500+ IIRC.

Well PP is all around and wouldnt give us much to trade for, while if we can bulb something else a little later on (Sci Meth/Physics?), it may be trait bait (or that is my reasoning anyway)

I know PP gives coins to villages and towns, how many of those do we have right now? Not to many I think.... or ??

bobrath · Apr 2, 2007

We have some villages and towns down in Khaaaan's lands. (iirc)

If PP is known by the world (ie we can't get any techs in trade), then perhaps the Academy is the better solution if it will help us get another trade eligible tech sooner. Now while Sci Meth and Physics are ahead of PP on the GS's chart (if I read your sig graphic correctly Namliam), Sci Meth requires PP so its not like he will ever bulb anything different than PP unless we know it.

A 100 turn payoff... Well it will probably be a bit shorter given that the city will grow and (dunno) we might build more beaker producing citizens or buildings.

Cosmichail · Apr 2, 2007

Well PP is all around and wouldnt give us much to trade for, while if we can bulb something else a little later on (Sci Meth/Physics?), it may be trait bait (or that is my reasoning anyway)

My thoughts too.

We have some villages and towns down in Khaaaan's lands. (iirc)

We sure do a bunch near Karakorum.

We do need science so going for the academy sounds like a good idea now. By the time we get to Physics likely have another. (remember too sci meth looses us those scientists.)

And Cosmic, you are awfully early (or late).

Late I'd say I think I posted that at 2am my time. A bit late for Sunday night but couldn't sleep.

GreyFox · Apr 2, 2007

We didn't originally have a lot of villages, but GK has quite a few. I seriously don't see the logic behind hanging on with the scientist to lightbulb something else. That means we would have to clear PP ourselves (since GS won't lightbulb anything else with PP still not learnt) and waste turns putting into that 2700+ beakers anyway. So, that's why, to me, there is only 2 alternatives: (a) lightbulb PP, or (b) build academy.

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Cosmichail · Apr 2, 2007

Fox I think whatever you feel best to do right now is fine with me. We do need the tech and your point about manually researching is true just more added to having research. OTOH having those extra beakers may long term offer more. Some how I think we might see the 21st century in this game.

If I were to choose without looking closely what we stand to gain from PP with those villages/towns at Karakorum and others in Vikingland that are starting to develop, I'd choose academy. If the base commerce increase offers more then PP it is since base commerce does have a direct effect on science.

bobrath · Apr 2, 2007

Given the above and the eventual loss of our city to Baldy... my vote is for PP to be bulbed to get the coins flowing in to support a higher rate of research.

SGOTM 04 - Team VQ

Deity

Deity

Dark Lord of The Sith

Deity

Dark Lord of The Sith

Deity

Deity

Dark Lord of The Sith

Make it so ...

Deity

Dark Lord of The Sith

Make it so ...

Make it so ...

Make it so ...

Deity

Emperor

Dark Lord of The Sith

Make it so ...

Dark Lord of The Sith

Emperor

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