SGOTM 05 - Gypsy Kings

[hellwitch]

IMO the best sttrategy will be BW. Here are the reasons for that:
- HBR is expensive tech and lead to nothing(BW=mining,chopping and slavery)
- The Keshik is exensive unit with very cheep counter(spearmen)
- The exemple OCC game show that the only real chance for the barb to destroy some of our rival is fast barb axes.
- As we got BW the barb will get it too
- Later in the game we will get HBR for free and then we can use the keshiks for their best purpose - pillage.
- On arhipelago maps like this the movement bonus of the keshiks will be less efective
- As we start with aggressive leader our axes will start with combat I promotion
- From my experience and lots of other games posted on here the axe rush is sure thing on monarch while the use of HA(keshiks)
has very suspicious result.

And here are my other points:
- we will need to make peace not for the trade but for the WW. Because all dead barbs will cost WW for us.(WW will be big problem)
- This game is monarch on epic speed the trade will play very little role somewhere near Astronomy.
- Military tech must go first and leave the other to take them free from the barbs.
- as the game go in AD the barb will get less role because there will be no free space on enemy islands for barb spawn. I hope at least they will keep some islands clear for AIs.
- We must go for early conquest to be competitive(even without Asro if possible).
- Most of our cities must be production powerhorses and preferable on coast(arhipelago map)
- After BW we must beline for cats(as they must be our main unit: 1 of every 2 units is good ratio). if we don't have enemy by land sailing must go first.
- As this is arhipelago map if we control the seas we will control the whole game so this could be good strategy.
- We can try to prevent the AI to meet each other if it is possible.

I thing that we must give more attention to the global strategy in our discussion. From what i've read in SGOTM 4 thread the micromanagement is widely discused while the whole strategy is taken too fast. Maybe i'm wrong if you have discuss it by PM.
This is only my personal feeling.
Please fill free to criticize my opinion as this is the way to make good decisions.

 

[Lehm]

I totally agree with the war fare techs. Axes and cats. If we are lucky we will have war elephants (but I don´t think so) and then maces.

But the barbs won´t get axes before a certain time even if we already have bronzeworking. So still enough time to tech for animal husbandry. Not for the keshiks ( I don´t like them neither) but for the production of our cities.



Is the grammar right? Is it "I don´t like them neither or either"

 

[hellwitch]

If there isn't Agricultural food resource in the capital's fat cross - AH first will not worth. Without any production(if build on place) we will need chopping and slavary ASAP. IMO the scout must go SW SW to see the west side of our possible fat cross.

 

[g_storrow]

The only think I noticed that hasnt been discussed is that Mutual military struggle we coudl do with getting peace asap with the people we want to be peace with. but the 3 who we want will surely be at least freindly with the others who will only hate us more and the 3 who we cant get peace with will surely pact up to hate us. I think we try and get peace with everyoen asap apart from the closest person or teh person who we want to attack first.
but then eth warrios cant pillage/attack others who we dont want to attack straight away but will in the end run.
Can we give cities to the babariians?

Sorry for the rambling and the spelling. I think I am jsut concerned regarding mutual struggle poitns accumulating on our enemies so they get matey and kil us.

I must agree with hellwitch is point where a lot of the discussion was for MM and that turn /next turn. I think when we post what we are planning to do in our turn we also mention what long term strat is and how our turn helps this? if it doesn't it is fine occasionally but we shoudl keep an eye in the future.

 

[da_Vinci]

Also, dV, how's WOTM11 going? I really wouldn't mind scrapping it entirely and moving on to the next XOTMs...I'm picking up BtS tomorrow before I go to work.

I finished it this weekend ... let's just say I am satisfied with the result. You'll want to finish it if you don't want to lose ground in our little contest.

dV

 

[Conquistador 63]

@ R1, dV, Thrallia: I've finished WOTM11 yesterday, and I enjoyed playing it too.

Now I'm really pleased with the level of discussion going on, especially from new teammates, I think we've done a good job on recruiting.

In my solo games I usually go on the builder side and would love to try a diplo approach as suggested by Thrallia, but this being a team game I agree 100% with Lehm and hellwitch, conquest is the way to go here.

I also agree we shouldn't be in a hurry to start the game. We need to discuss strategy further and if possible some playtesting would help.

About tech remember we start with no techs (in a normal game we'd have hunting/wheel). So I'd be inclined to go AH via hunting (if this gives spearmen to the barbs) or agriculture (if it doesn't), mainly for the pigs, not the keshiks. But mining+bw is also to be considered. I like the axe rush idea, but I doubt there is another AI in our landmass (archipelago). The discussion is still open.

Scout should go W-NW or NW-NW if we want him to show fat cross for starting settler position.

What got me confused from hellwitch post is whether he thinks we should pursue early peace or not. I think early on WW is irrelevant, and we need to harrass the rivals, but I might be wrong.

 

[da_Vinci]

How soon into the game will the first animals spawn? When that happens, I think suddenly the map will be revealed, and a lot of our questions will be answered. Which of the various decisions can be postponed until we get this intelligence? Maybe we play the first turnset until animals, then pause for some well informed discussion?

I've used back door diplo as away to end a crawling domination game that has gotten bogged down ... but that tends to be a late win.

Do we really think that any kind of diplo is going to beat those 1000 AD conquests that we know some individuals in this contest are capable of? If the civs that are hostile by nature are near enough at the start, then maybe the early part of the game is the same for either conquest, dom or diplo ... kill the hostile civs?

dV

 

[Scout214]

Just checking in. Played on a previous Gypsy Kings team but not the most recent one. I'm sure that I am one of the lesser experienced team members, since I don't play Civ 4 that much like some of its true aficionados. Will do my best to hold up my end, though, and abide by the consensus on strategy.

To Ronnie, daVinci & Conquistador - nice to be playing with you guys again! Let's do better than Bronze this time!!

 

[Thrallia]

I totally agree with the war fare techs. Axes and cats. If we are lucky we will have war elephants (but I don´t think so) and then maces.

But the barbs won´t get axes before a certain time even if we already have bronzeworking. So still enough time to tech for animal husbandry. Not for the keshiks ( I don´t like them neither) but for the production of our cities.

Is that true? I would assume that if the barb team KNOWS bronze working, then it can USE axes.

I think the reason it takes so long for the barbs normally to have them is that it has to wait until everyone else already has the tech, in order for it to get enough beakers to learn it.

The only think I noticed that hasnt been discussed is that Mutual military struggle we coudl do with getting peace asap with the people we want to be peace with. but the 3 who we want will surely be at least freindly with the others who will only hate us more and the 3 who we cant get peace with will surely pact up to hate us. I think we try and get peace with everyoen asap apart from the closest person or teh person who we want to attack first.
but then eth warrios cant pillage/attack others who we dont want to attack straight away but will in the end run.
Can we give cities to the babariians?

Sorry for the rambling and the spelling. I think I am jsut concerned regarding mutual struggle poitns accumulating on our enemies so they get matey and kil us.

I must agree with hellwitch is point where a lot of the discussion was for MM and that turn /next turn. I think when we post what we are planning to do in our turn we also mention what long term strat is and how our turn helps this? if it doesn't it is fine occasionally but we shoudl keep an eye in the future.

No one else will know each other yet, so no mutual war points. Additionally, if we are planning on a conquest(and on leveraging our barbarian allies as much as possible), then it doesn't matter what they think about us anyway.

How soon into the game will the first animals spawn? When that happens, I think suddenly the map will be revealed, and a lot of our questions will be answered. Which of the various decisions can be postponed until we get this intelligence? Maybe we play the first turnset until animals, then pause for some well informed discussion?

Do we really think that any kind of diplo is going to beat those 1000 AD conquests that we know some individuals in this contest are capable of? If the civs that are hostile by nature are near enough at the start, then maybe the early part of the game is the same for either conquest, dom or diplo ... kill the hostile civs?

dV

I think animals spawn on turn 7 or turn 8. Not sure if that is modified by RAGING barbs(just noticed this...we can almost definitely take out at least 1 civ early with raging barbs, especially with no Great Wall available).

As far as diplo/domination/conquest...the early game will be the same in any of those cases...we want pre-1AD Maces so that the barbs get pre-1AD maces...raging barb maces could be very dangerous for our enemies.

I think for our research, we head to BW, then CoL(by which point we should have most of the techs we normally have to backfill learned thanks to passive barb teching)...basically, despite not starting with any techs, we should be able to beeline to a CS Slingshot if we ignore worker techs(which we'd learn automatically in around 30-45 turns) since CS doesn't require Math in vanilla

By doing that, then either teching directly to Machinery, or going the opposite direction, and using Oracle for Metal Casting, get a GE and lightbulb Machinery and teching CS we should(theoretically) be able to get early enough Maces that the AI won't be able to handle it

@dV, Ronnie1, C63: My WOTM11 hasn't gone quite as well as I'd have expected, so I think I'll lose ground to you this month dV

 

[Lehm]

Is that true? I would assume that if the barb team KNOWS bronze working, then it can USE axes.

I think the reason it takes so long for the barbs normally to have them is that it has to wait until everyone else already has the tech, in order for it to get enough beakers to learn it.

Well, I don´t know. I just thought that the barb team has several points in time when they get the tech for new units. But okay, if they really can use the axes by the moment they get bronze it´s best to go mining then bronze first. ... pigs have to wait.

@hellwitch: If you try to let the scout move SW SW it´s going to be a hard fight against this unpassable mountain. NW NW is okay to see everything of the starting spot fat cross. Agree to do that

 

[Thrallia]

I think we definitely need to get a test game set up and we all play at least 50-100 turns of it before we do something stupid to open up this game lol

I should finish up WOTM11 soon, so once I do I'll install BtS and try to get a test map set up and posted in here.
Among the things we need to check are the following:

• Whether barbs can use the techs we research when we research them(axes/Maces)
• Whether barb pop and land counts towards our domination/diplo limits
• How fast we get techs from barb passive research
• How well the AI copes with human-tech infused raging barbs
• Whether a CS/MC slingshot is possible with no starting techs

Did I miss anything?

 

[Ronnie1]

The test game I posted in the sign-up thread (or discussion thread, can't remember) has the right opponents and the correct starting position. It does NOT use the current Mod of course, but that should not make much of a difference in how it plays. I have played with it a couple times to get a feel for how it will go. My first impression is that teching is very slow, somehow being teamed with the barbs, appeared to slow the tech I was working on, even as I was gaining points on techs that I had no interest in at the moment. I was going for the early Astronomy route, and got there first, but was lagging in some of the other basic military techs. Basically, I was missing the top half of the tech tree when I got to Astronomy.

Also, I'm still trying to find a copy of BTS, and haven't had a chance to download the new patches, so I'm still at least a day or two from being able to work on a test game. But I agree with Thrallia that we should all play a number of turns of testing for our own benefit. And as someone else said, we don't have to start just because we have the save file. Careful planning at the beginning can shave lots of turns at the end.

As far as the roster goes. The last 2 games I set the roster by random order. I put the names of the old guys in 1 hat and the names of the new guys in a different hat, and alternated drawing names to try and balance it out. I think I would like to do something similar this time also. My only issue right now is that I'm going to be out of town for a convention for 5 days starting on the 28th of July. I will be out of touch until at least the 1st and probably the 2nd of August. I'm not sure what kind of internet access I'll have at my disposal. If anyone has any thoughts on the roster idea, please let me know.

 

[da_Vinci]

I'd be happy to hold off on starting the game until R1 gets back, gives us time to get our computers up and running with the new patches (I know they are giving Lehm fits!). Or as an alternative, if we have a clear plan for the first 10 turns, we could play those, see what the animals reveal, then pause to plan in more detail.

While I agree with hellwitch that the long range strategy must be considered at all times, I also think that it can be useful to speed decison-making to understand which decisions have to be made now, and which can actually be made later when there is more information to base it on. So if we focus on what needs to be decided for the first 10 turns (where to settle, first build or two, first tech or two), we can get to the animal spawn and then pause to think out the grander strategy, with more info and less speculation.

One idea that we used in SGOTM 03 was to move the settler, then upload to discuss where to settle, after having more info. If we want our cities to be coastal, as hellwitch suggests, then settling in place looks reasonable. Going south looks like jungle, too hard to develop early before IW.

2W 1N of settler looks like water, so settling 2W might be an option, but what would justify the one turn delay?

Settling SE adds sea tiles and mountain to FC, but does bring a second hill into play (after IW) and city tile is now dry grass instead of wet grass (adds a commerce). Or maybe it is a first hill into play, as pig hill won't be mined (or will it?). In place gives a good cottage city, SE adds only a few extra hammers. Maybe a later city is production city?

Any other one turn settle is not coastal, so perhaps less desireable? So if the only settle options are in place, 1SE or 2W, then the scout move is 1W, 1NW.

So if we agree on a leadoff hitter, agree that 1W 1 NW is the scout move, then we could make that move and upload, then discuss where to settle. Then maybe we get to the animal spawn before R1 leaves, then pause until he gets back (while we play some test games etc.)

I'm not sure if we want to delay worker techs too much ... do we want to wait 40 turns to build cottages, roads, or pasture the pigs? Mining the pig hill (we can pasture over it later) might be an intersting idea ... would allow us to wait on AH if the consensus is to go that way. But if we have a civ that we can reach by land, that we want to kill, we might want to be able to reinforce the raging barbs so might want horse for that. We will know more after the animals start to roam.

dV

 

[hellwitch]

I have some troubles with 1.74 patch. I know from what they are and i hope to fix the problem soon.

 

[hellwitch]

And for the start i think that settling in place will give us very poor in production terms capital. If we go that way BW first is a must (chopping and slavery). But as this is arhipelago and the good city point will be only few i vote for 1 turn delay of the capital. if the settler go on the pigs hill we can see lots of the south coast and can get better options(a sea food will be very desirable i think - that will make fishing top priority). For the scout i think 2NW could open view to the west coast which will happen if 2w 1n is a sea tile.

 

[Conquistador 63]

As for the similar SG...it was a Civ3 SG, and because of that, I haven't gone there...I'm not sure it would hold much bearing for a Civ4 game because of the innate differences in the combat systems.

The thread is about a Civ4 game, its main difference is that is an OCC and prince level. Even then, I'll have a look at it to search for answers to some of your questions.

So if we agree on a leadoff hitter, agree that 1W 1 NW is the scout move, then we could make that move and upload, then discuss where to settle. Then maybe we get to the animal spawn before R1 leaves, then pause until he gets back (while we play some test games etc.)

We can't upload a save after moving only the scout (it is still 4000BC), but we surely can post a screenshot for a more informed discussion. And the scout move would be 2NW as hellwitch says. If his patch problems are sorted out I propose he starts the game and reports after moving the scout.

 

[da_Vinci]

The thread is about a Civ4 game, its main difference is that is an OCC and prince level. Even then, I'll have a look at it to search for answers to some of your questions.
We can't upload a save after moving only the scout (it is still 4000BC), but we surely can post a screenshot for a more informed discussion. And the scout move would be 2NW as hellwitch says. If his patch problems are sorted out I propose he starts the game and reports after moving the scout.

That would be fine with me. To keep order, I think we won't execute that until we get the OK from R1 ... as we should keep the roster decisions in our capable captain's hands. "It is best to have one ruler, one King ..."

If we move a small distance and settle, will we have wasted a good city spot? In particular, if we lose the pigs in the FC, no other city will get it unless we have moved pretty far away. If our island has only a few city spots, maybe we need to take this one now? Just something to consider. We will know more after the initial moves.

If we move the settler to explore, is going up the pig hill better than going NW to the forest? I guess he can see the sea tile past the coast, looking for seafood. But the scout is seeing two tiles out to sea, so maybe NW for settler sees more new tiles? Then scout can start W, to confirm if the south is all jungle (which we would not settle to start, right?). Maybe finish with a second west scout move.

@ hellwitch: If not settling in place, do you have other thoughts in mind? Like settle NW if that finds seafood? I assume not settling on the pigs. South looks like too much jungle. I am pretty sure 2W 1N is coast, as the terminal river delta is in its SE corner, right? So as much as in place is hammer poor, maybe no better options?

If there is seafood 3E 1N of settler, that might make settling 1E useful ... how best to see that? Scout 1N or Setter 1 E? Or will settler see that from the pig hill? If we don't want to go inland, and want to keep the pigs, then options are rather limited. R1, who could see what from where in your test game right at the start?

dV

 

[hellwitch]

sorry, but i still have problems with 1.74 . I prefer not to be first because of that.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I read somewhere that Lehm is done with upgrading, maybe he would take the honors, if R1 agrees.

 

[Ronnie1]

Here is the worldbuilder save of the practice game I made earlier. I think it should load with any mod if I undestand things correctly, but my knowledge may be the only thing lacking.