SGOTM 05 - Murky Waters

[Erkon]

klarius, great play

Yeah, let loose the dogs of war on the evil Cyrus!

Judaism is rather late. Does that mean Saladin has poor land?

Mîtiu Ioan, you're up next for a ~15 turn session. You wanna play?

 

[klarius]

Judaism is rather late. Does that mean Saladin has poor land?

Well, and what is Isa doing . Ok evil Gyathaar has taken away her mysticism probably, but she should be a religion nutcase anyway.

 

[LowtherCastle]

This is one of those games where teams that don't hesitate will finish light years ahead of others. For the time being, only Qin, Isa and Sal are growing. We need to accelerate everything.

Overall Strategy
All we really need for Conquest is Pottery>Sailing>Mysticism(>IW). Finito. After that we can shut down research.

City Settlement Sequence
1. Gold City E of Gold (FC includes stone and rice)
2. Gateway to Qin (!?!?!) Better, closer than Drojf! Needs 5t w/chop to build obelisk.
3. Gateway to Isa (N of W rice). Finito.

4. Maybe Drojf for although not sure.
5. After IW we settle 1 more prod in our heartland, or not.

Attack Schedule
Our biggest threats are Qin (finiancial) and Isabella (copper IN capital!!!)

1. Saladin: for gold and experience. Need axe down here asap to pillage copper, etc.
2. Qin: Qin will build Stonehange for us and we need to kill him off early or else.
3. Isa. She'll expand rapidly toward us and we need to beat her down also asap.
4. CLean the the remaining garbage plus Alex. Gameover.

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

Mîtiu Ioan, you're up next for a ~15 turn session. You wanna play?

Of course - just to arrive home in the evening to download the last save !

 

[klarius]

I agree that gold and Qin city are our next goals. I'm just not sure where to put gold city.
I know, I said we want immediately productive cities, but still E of stone looks also pretty nice after expansion. We could still cut a forest for 20h, so an obelisk doesn't take that long. But the wait for expansion .......

 

[klarius]

Now that it's morning here and I'm not as bloodthirsty anymore , I get second thoughts about redeclaring on Cyrus.
There will be only 2 axes coming in at the same time, the third is probably already on the way to the Delhi suicide.
I saw 2 archers in Pasargadae and they will probably still be there until he finishes a settler. So our chances to take the city are pretty slim and WW from Cyrus has probably not completely vanished by now.
So maybe wait for a better chance, though it may never come.

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

One question : is any religion-grab definately out of our purpose ?

Regards

 

[klarius]

One question : is any religion-grab definately out of our purpose ?

What do you mean by grab.
Research? - no dice
Capturing a city from Saladin? - sure possible

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

I hoped that was a chance to get it by ourself by researching Priesthood, build Oracle ... or something like this.

But I see that here only warmongering solution are taken in account for a ( faster ) victory.

Regards

 

[klarius]

But I see that here only warmongering solution are taken in account for a ( faster ) victory.

Regards

That's not the (only ) point. I pretty much doubt that we could research to priesthood and build the Oracle, before some AI does it.
Our research capacity is still very low and we don't even have mysticism by now.

 

[Erkon]

Both Saladin and Qin are isolated on poor islands. They will not trade tech with anyone else, so they will not get advanced.

The other AI on the continent is a bigger threat since a) the have better land and b) they can trade tech with each others.

Look at it from this way: if we attack Saladin first, how hard will it be to take out the AI on the continent, compared to how hard it will be to take out Saladin last?

I have analysed the quick finishers in GOTM and tried to emulate their strategy. They always tech to construction. And that is for domination. Conquest is even worse...

So, has anyone of you managed to win a domination or conquest without construction? (with similar settings as this map?) I haven't (and I've tried).

EDIT: Well, not entirely true: the jaguar rush on small island was done without cats.

 

[klarius]

Again, this game is different than a standard setting, as the AI does ignore the war with us. If they don't have other wars, you can expect 1-2 units in cities + what they can build while our units are near.
Hey, even the barbs working against the 40% AI bonus could take an AI capital with 40% cultural defense at that time. Up to now I haven't seen more than 2 archers in any AI city and frequently it's only 1.
So I don't think cats are necessary.

The Qin gate island is a top city location, with high whip production potential. The western link requires a completely useless town before IW.

 

[Erkon]

Again, this game is different than a standard setting, as the AI does ignore the war with us. If they don't have other wars, you can expect 1-2 units in cities + what they can build while our units are near.
Hey, even the barbs working against the 40% AI bonus could take an AI capital with 40% cultural defense at that time. Up to now I haven't seen more than 2 archers in any AI city and frequently it's only 1.
So I don't think cats are necessary.

The Qin gate island is a top city location, with high whip production potential. The western link requires a completely useless town before IW.

You may be right, perhaps we don't need cats. We're then back to whom to attack. Assume we can reach Alex without a cultural bridge, why should we start with Saladin?

 

[Erkon]

This is one of those games where teams that don't hesitate will finish light years ahead of others. For the time being, only Qin, Isa and Sal are growing. We need to accelerate everything.

Overall Strategy
All we really need for Conquest is Pottery>Sailing>Mysticism(>IW). Finito. After that we can shut down research. - Masonry if Stonehenge. Animal Husbandry for better tiles. Not necessary, but maybe better?

City Settlement Sequence
1. Gold City E of Gold (FC includes stone and rice) - Hey, give us the chart for Gold City E compared to Gold City SE + Drojf aka Klarius Klams!
2. Gateway to Qin (!?!?!) Better, closer than Drojf! Needs 5t w/chop to build obelisk. - Agree, good for as well.
3. Gateway to Isa (N of W rice). Finito. - No, go east over Alex.

4. Maybe Drojf for although not sure. - Assume size 4 => ~8 - maintenance
5. After IW we settle 1 more prod in our heartland, or not.

Attack Schedule
Our biggest threats are Qin (finiancial) and Isabella (copper IN capital!!!) - No, our biggest threats are those on the continent, not Qin.
1. Saladin: for gold and experience. Need axe down here asap to pillage copper, etc. - Sending two axes to Saladin and two to Qin on pillage mission may be enough to choke them?
2. Qin: Qin will build Stonehange for us and we need to kill him off early or else. - I thought Gnejs was our Prophet. Do claim that title?
3. Isa. She'll expand rapidly toward us and we need to beat her down also asap.
4. CLean the the remaining garbage plus Alex. Gameover.

Excellent strategy, LC! Wrong, but still excellent

BTW, Gnejs will probably show up tonight and bring some of his wisdom into this thread. Imagine the chaos... Welcome to the team Gnejs!

 

[klarius]

Assume we can reach Alex without a cultural bridge, why should we start with Saladin?

Assume, we will know better by the time we have sailing .
Then we can still decide whom to attack.
But that's independent of settling Qin gate.

 

[LowtherCastle]

@Erkon: ...(sigh)... First you were "right" about Erkopper, which turned out to be a fiasco, and now you blame me for needing catapults...go figure.

So much my feeble attempts at brevity. Let me spell this out for the President of the Peanut Gallery...

Qin is financial so he'll research faster, in general. He has no competition (maybe Sal on Oracle or Alex, the Big Unknown) for wonders so he'll get SH and Oracle. The barbs aren't touching his mega-prod center (check the graphs). He's already got horses, copper is close by...

I reserve judgment on Alex, because we have no idea what he's got but his graphs aren't stellar.

Isabella has in-house copper and food galore despite barb pillaging.

Cyrus is almost dead and Asoka is barb-locked.

Why Sal first? Basically it depends on when we finally have an attack force, (now that Erdumkopfer has to build an obelisk and wait 15turns before it can build axes in any timely manner). (consider that gentle trash-talking ).

But my idea is that we have two considerations for our warring: 1) Kill off the biggest threats, 2) Kill off whoever's available at the time.

Biggest threats Biggest threats are: 1) Anyone who might get to LBMs, 2) Anyone with copper so we're attacking fortified axes on 40% city hillls. 3) AI REX.

Thank God, Gnejs is coming. I know he would have voted for CTSouth.

 

[klarius]

Basically it depends on when we finally have an attack force, (now that Erdumkopfer has to build an obelisk and wait 15turns before it can build axes in any timely manner). (consider that gentle trash-talking ).

Why the hell would you need an obelisk to build axes. Working a mined hill is inferior to irrigated grass, if you use pop-rushing with a granary.
41 food (pop 2-4) = 90 hammers.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm just not sure where to put gold city.
..E of stone looks also pretty nice after expansion.

Tough choice.

Stone E has +2 and is 2 tiles closer (less maint?), but the port is facing away from Sal and this site leaves the Rice useless.

Gold Drojf is a drojf, expands a bit faster (StoneE actually has 2 chops available) has Gold online 20+turns sooner, and leaves Clams Drojf open as a commerce center. Considering we might be attacking both Alex and Sal from here, that's an important consideration.

Now that it's morning here and I'm not as bloodthirsty anymore , I get second thoughts about redeclaring on Cyrus.
There will be only 2 axes coming in at the same time, the third is probably already on the way to the Delhi suicide.
I saw 2 archers in Pasargadae and they will probably still be there until he finishes a settler. So our chances to take the city are pretty slim and WW from Cyrus has probably not completely vanished by now.
So maybe wait for a better chance, though it may never come.

Two issues: Barb attacks and WW.

Barb Attacks Critical to early conquest strategy--this is how we hope wo conquer without cats, right? Ideally, we maximize barb attacks until they subside. Barb attacks: 1) Impede AI REX by holing up settlers and decreasing production, 2) Impede AI tech research by pillaging resources and slowing AI REX, 3) Kill of AIs, this is the ultimate, dream benefit: speeds up our conquest, zeros out WW points from that AI.

Comments:
1. We opted for a BW bee-line to maximize our axes and barb-attack impact. Some other teams went pottery first and have a "commerce: juggernaut w/less WW in the offing. Let's stick with our strategy. Too late to turn back.
2. DoW Cyrus NOW. It's worth the try. It keeps his settler at home. It keeps some barbs from going toward Asoka which is much worse for WW (the chances of taking down that 3-CP foritifed 40% city-hill archer are remote).

WW
1. Connect Gold asap.
2. Maybe capture Sal's (or Alex's) holy city and spread his religion.
3. Search for more happies (does Sal have minks? I forget)
4. REX-- a few more cities with low population can be pretty effective for units and gold.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Why the hell would you need an obelisk to build axes. Working a mined hill is inferior to irrigated grass, if you use pop-rushing with a granary.
41 food (pop 2-4) = 90 hammers.

hmmm...(back to the excel drawing board to figure out if klarius is right again... )

EDIT: Of course, both sites can have a granary and poprush, so, assuming we can have pop3 with our WW, then your solution is okay (-3 for the 15th turn if the hill were available, but + for the lower maintenance.) If we can only maintain pop2 (possible until we connect Gold, right?), then your site is -24 for the 8 turns after growing from pop2>pop3.

So I guess that argues strongly for Gold Drojf and connecting Gold asap.

Oh yeah, and my humble apologies. From now on, I promise to think of it as Erkpper.

 

[klarius]

hmmm...(back to the excel drawing board to figure out if klarius is right again... )

Well to come out really better you have to have enough base food. That means working bananas at size2. And this obviously leads to the need to pasture the pigs for the capital.