SGOTM 06 - Fifth Element

[dutchfire]

Hi guys,

I've been having a bit of a cold lately (damned Dutch climate), but here I am. I've signed up as lurker too.

We're playing version 2.13, but I could only find reference charts for 2.08, have any important things been changed?

I think we should play this game slowly and carefully, Murky Waters have shown that that's the way to go.

On the game:

Churchill of England
+1 happin./city, -25% XP for promotion, +1 happiness from Monument, Broadcast Tower. free Drill 1 + City Garrison 1 archery + gunpowder, 2x prodution speed walls, castle
I personally love Charismatic, it gives 1 free happiness point, and another easy point by building a monument. As we've seen last game, happiness is mightily important.
Protective is less attractive in general, but cheaper walls and a better gunpowder units might come in handy in this AW game.
We start with fishing () and mining )).
The protective redcoats will be very strong, if we make it there.

I think the most important thing to do early in the game is breaking the exponential growth of the AI. Harassing the AI's, either by trying to steal their workers, or by knocking out settlers on the move will be crucial to slow them down. For that, we could use either chariots or axes. Both require resources though.


By the way, a nice read about this game might be: The Immortal Challenge 3

And Lanzelot's post in GOTM 22 Romans GOTM

 

[dutchfire]

Short term:

I think our warrior should move SE, NE, NE and circle around our core a bit. I think we should start building a warrior, we'll need it. Research should probably aim for archery to be save.

 

[BLubmuz]

Welcome back to you too, dutchfire.

BTW i noticed over 5000 posts... wwwwowww

Thanks for resuming some info about our settings and, yes the redcoat is powerful, if we arrive there.
I always forget the monument thing, but i think they obsolete too soon.
Still, if we have happiness problems this can be a good hint.

Remember, we are on prince, the warrior is not a priority. The Rome game was another thing, be sure.

My strong (in terms that if i have the game, i will surely follow that path) opinion is the one in the last post of the previous page, and i motivate it there.

 

[dutchfire]

What do you want to do with the worker?
We only have mining and fishing. We could mine the gold, but we can't build roads, so there's hardly a point in doing so. And besides, being charismatic, we don't need happiness that early. I think we should be working the cows and the plantation in the beginning to stimulate growth. Working the gold mine, while giving lots of commerce and hammers, will halt growth.
I think we should have our worker finished when we've got agriculture, to irrigate the banana's.

So I'd say: Hunting-Archery-Agriculture-Animal Husbandry
Building warriors/archers and then a worker ready in time for agriculture (have him ready a turn earlier, so he can move towards the banana's).

 

[BLubmuz]

What do you want to do with the worker?

Here is the answer:

Resuming the 1st TS goals:
research the wheel, start BW
build a worker
keep the warrior ON our borders (preferably around NE) to intercept some pray.

Please, read all the post quoted above, it's quite long.

 

[Merum]

I don't remember seeing any consensus that we were going to research wheel first. In fact, I'm fairly certain that only one person seems to be in favor of this approach. I'm fine with hunting/archery first, but the wheel is a no-go for me. It makes no sense to put us backwards for techs we don't need when some form of military technology should have such a clear priority.

 

[BLubmuz]

No, my was a proposal, as i clearly posted.

But i see no good arguments against it.
I repeat:
in case we have copper, how do you think to connect it?

Wheel is researched faster, and the worker will have something useful to do.

My "goals for the first turn" are divided in points to be voted, if the majority chooses different goals, let's go that way.

(on your head)

 

[greatbeyond]

Food for thought. Let me know what you think, I'll probably make moves in a couple of hours or in the morning. (9 hrs) I was not convinced to build a worker first. I did two tests comparing building a worker first, then emphasizing growth and Research,
versus
Building a warrior first, emphasizing growth and research until at lest size 3 or 4.

Both methods used the same research path, Wheel, BW, Hunting, AH Warrior first stats are in parentheses

Worker First: (Warrior First
3610 learn WHEEL pop 1 (same, pop 2)
3400 (pop 3)
3340 (complete warrior)
3310 worker produced
3100 (pop 4)
3070 (finish BW, Start Hunting, here is
where we could start a worker (13T) then when it gets to 6 turns left we sacrifice 1 pop for a worker, using this method, worker is created at 2830)
2980 pop 2
2950 Learn BW, worker has mined gold and completed road to London
2860 Warrior built
2830 (Learn HUNTING)
2800 Learn HUNTING
2680 copper and gold both mined and roaded
2590 First axeman
2290 (copper and gold mined and roaded)

It appears there are benefits to both methods.
Faster research appears to take place with the 2nd method while it is a quicker build of infrastructure with the first method
Sorry for the text running together, had it separated in 2 columns but when posted it takes out the spaces.

 

[culdeus]

How do you know where the bronze is?

 

[greatbeyond]

How do you know where the bronze is?

These were test games done with the test save Blubmuz posted.

In the real game we may not have Copper anywhere close. Which is one of the concerns with researching BW. There are no guarantees. The only Military tech that doesn't require a resource is Archery.
The same holds true for The Wheel. if there aren't any horses nearby, I wouldn't say the Tech is wasted but it certainly isn't a must do right away. On top of this, horses won't be revealed until we research AH.
One positive aspect of building roads would be that connecting the gold gives us 1 happiness. This isn't quite so important right away, as in this game, we don't get a happiness problem until size 7.

I'll wait until Sunday morning and see what the consensus is before conducting any moves. Blubmuz, if you want to post a vote or survey to see which to research first?

My vote is for Hunting first as we can then do AH, to see if we have horses, or BW to see if we have Copper. Either of these would then make building a worker an immediate priority. Which if we have been growing all along we could sacrifice 1 or 2 pop to rush the worker if we wanted to once we have BW.

I am sure we'll do alright any way we choose. It just may require adjustments to tactics a little later.

 

[BLubmuz]

GB, your post is very interesting
I made a quick test:
warrior first, while researching BW
turn 1-7 work cows 3f
turn 8, borders expand, work banana 3f+1g
turn 10 grow 2, continue with warrior and BW, work banana and cow 6f+1g
then is enough to work a grassland forest for 1 turn (2f+1h)to:
turn 21: size 3, warrior completed, BW learned,
revolt to slavery, start worker, start the wheel
in my test game we have grassland copper, and working this gives another +1g, worker due in 15, wheel in 10.

Perhaps this one is the way to go, my previous proposal delayed too much growth, and we can know if we have copper (or, at least see it).
Then i prosecute this: the worker can be whipped at 7 turns to go, for 1 pop.
If we do so, the worker is ready at turn 31 (3070 BC) and, working cows and banana, we can grow back in 9 turns, while producing barracks.

Thus, since worker/wheel first was not a good idea i propose:
let's follow this, and close your TS after BW is in (t21), so we can decide what to do, also if we want to whip or not the worker in my TS.
Why i reversed to BW? the whip, man, the whip, copper or not.
good luck

 

[dutchfire]

We will need some kind of military soon. There are basically three options, archers, chariots and axemen.

Chariots require horses, the wheel and animal husbandry, and are in my opinion the biggest gamble.
Axemen are a gamble too, but I think we can take that gamble, since bronze working will allow slavery, which will be important too.
Archers are the back up in case we don't have copper.

So I'd say:
Bronze Working
if Copper-> the wheel
if no Copper->hunting+archery

So I basically agree with BLubmuz' latest plan (post #51)

 

[Sweetacshon]

There is another part of BW we are forgetting... the chop! We have so many resources, I'd like to see 2 workers asap.Let's not forget what level we're on here, the AI doesn't have all that much to throw at us.

I'd prefer worker>worker(chop)>warrior etc
with BW>[hunting/arch]/[wheel]/[agriculture] depending on where resources lie. A caveat is that I am away from civ, and can't test it, so I suppose I can be as cavalier as I want.

 

[dutchfire]

I just did some testing on BtS, Big & Small, standard, Churchill.

Of course, I popped hunting from a hut immediately
The Prince AI didn't give me many problems early on, it didn't attack at all.
I researched Bronze Working (no copper)->Hunting (popped)->Archery->Animal Husbandry (no horses)-> Agriculture

Getting an archer into someones land early can really destroy them. I pillaged Bismarck's corn and a plains hill, and his empire wasn't much of a problem after that. It's good to bring archers in pairs later on though, as the AI is likely to take a single archer out. Then again, that's the BtS AI, I don't know about Warlords.


edit: Another random thought, what if we're alone on an island?

 

[dutchfire]

Graph gazing:

CRC did NOT build a warrior first, so they probably did a worker first.

Their power:
After TC 1: 3 (mining + 1 warrior)
After TC 2: 5 (mining + 2 warriors + 2/3 pop city)
After TC 3: 16 (!) (mining + 2/3 pop city + bronze working + 5 warriors?)


Geezers: Looks like they didn't settle immediately, less than 26 culture after 14 turns.

 

[Merum]

Blubmuz, it looked to me like your proposal was more like "This is what the team agreed on, so let's do this". This is my mistake so I apologize for sounding harsh.

Yesterday, I played another test, on a random map, since I already know too much about the test game, and I had great success with the following:

Tech order: Hunting/Archery/AH/BW/Wheel/Mysticism/Agriculture/Meditation/Priesthood/Pottery
Build Order: Warrior/Worker/Archer/Barracks/Archer(W)/Archer/Archer/etc

In this game, I found myself with NO metal and NO horses after both the enabliing techs were researched! However, because I was able to raise an archer force, I sent them out pillaging, and was able to take a horse city. After grabbing the horses, I made a run a HBR and was able to absolutely raise hell with horse archers, taking cities and going on pillaging runs almost at will.

I built stonehenge in this game, but missed the oracle. The prophet was parked until I finished monotheism, so I could spend him on theology and get the upgrade bonuses. If I had varied my tech path a bit, I probably could have gotten the oracle as well and used it for a MC slingshot. However, with the money problems a CoL slingshot might be preferable. Alternately, the prophet could be spent on CoL rather than theology, but the promotions from theocracy are nice. Stonehenge also helps a lot in popping cities after the capitol without having to spend hammers on a monument.

I built the stonehenge and lots of other building susing whip overflows, so that I could keep producing archers in the early game. This allowed me to keep the military coming while still building infrastructure.

Money is still a problem as the game goes on. Pillaging helps, but the tech rate still drops. Razing is the key.

A stack of 2-3 Drill 2 archers makes for a formidable pillaging stack, and can harass the AIs while more military can be built.

As I've said before, construction is a must, as catapults in warlords are absolutely murder, especially when promoted combat 1/drill 1.

This is a much better start than I'd previously been able to manage with a BW/Worker first start, and so, my current proposal and vote is for the Hunting/Archery/AH path.

EDIT: If we happen to find ivory, it is a MUST HAVE. A stack of War Elephants and Cats is simply overwhelming.

 

[BLubmuz]

Not a problem, Merum, sometimes are my language limits, or my hurry in posting.

But i'm VERY convinced of what i proposed in my previous post:
too perfect, in 21 turns we'll know if we have metal, we can chop, whip and have the worker ready 10 turns later.

Then, if we got copper, wheel, otherwise your path is OK.
But we'll can discuss after we'll have knowledge.

Graph gazing:

After TC 3: 16 (!) (mining + 2/3 pop city + bronze working + 5 warriors?)

or 2 axes?

 

[greatbeyond]

The Heralds are shouting the news from the towers of London, We have Copper! See attached screen shot. Uploading save next. Nothing to report, we haven't met anyone else. I have attached my own narrative log (Wordpad text format) and the Autolog.

 

[greatbeyond]

Save has been uploaded to the progress page.

Next person in line should note that I temporarily set research to Wheel, and production to worker, in addition, we are working the cows, bananas, and a forest. Both warriors are ready to move

 

[Merum]

The copper is wonderful news! It's on the river, so it will auto-hook, I think. This will make the wheel unnecessary for now.

Just as a note, Greatbeyond, it's better to paste the autolog into the post with spoiler tags around it, as the color tags and formatting make it a lot easier to read, like this:

Spoiler :

London founded
London begins: Warrior (22 turns)
Research begun: Hunting (9 Turns)
Research begun: Bronze Working (22 Turns)

IBT:

Turn 1/660 (3970 BC) [16-Dec-2007 10:58:06]

IBT:

Turn 2/660 (3940 BC) [16-Dec-2007 11:07:44]

IBT:

Turn 3/660 (3910 BC) [16-Dec-2007 11:19:22]

IBT:

Turn 4/660 (3880 BC) [16-Dec-2007 11:24:50]

IBT:

Turn 5/660 (3850 BC) [16-Dec-2007 11:28:01]

IBT:

Turn 6/660 (3820 BC) [16-Dec-2007 11:30:19]

IBT:

Turn 7/660 (3790 BC) [16-Dec-2007 11:32:10]
London's borders expand

IBT:

Turn 8/660 (3760 BC) [16-Dec-2007 11:34:48]

IBT:

Turn 9/660 (3730 BC) [16-Dec-2007 12:31:42]

IBT:

Turn 10/660 (3700 BC) [16-Dec-2007 12:33:00]
London grows: 2

IBT:

Turn 11/660 (3670 BC) [16-Dec-2007 12:41:46]

IBT:

Turn 12/660 (3640 BC) [16-Dec-2007 12:45:27]

IBT:

Turn 13/660 (3610 BC) [16-Dec-2007 12:49:33]

IBT:

Turn 14/660 (3580 BC) [16-Dec-2007 12:53:35]

IBT:

Turn 15/660 (3550 BC) [16-Dec-2007 12:55:41]

IBT:

Turn 16/660 (3520 BC) [16-Dec-2007 13:02:29]

IBT:

Turn 17/660 (3490 BC) [16-Dec-2007 13:03:45]

IBT:

Turn 18/660 (3460 BC) [16-Dec-2007 13:06:51]

IBT:
While defending in the wild near London, Warrior defeats (1.74/2): Barbarian Lion (Prob Victory: 99.3%)

Turn 19/660 (3430 BC) [16-Dec-2007 13:09:34]
London grows: 3

IBT:

Turn 20/660 (3400 BC) [16-Dec-2007 13:14:09]
Tech learned: Bronze Working
London finishes: Warrior

IBT:

Turn 21/660 (3370 BC) [16-Dec-2007 13:19:31]
Research begun: The Wheel (11 Turns)
London begins: Worker (15 turns)

It's also customary to provide a link to the save like this:

Here is the save

And finally, we like to post the roster, so there's no confusion as to who's up, like this:

Roster

Civicide - UP
Blubmuz - On Deck
Merum
Sweetacshon - roaming the wilds
Greatbeyond - Resting

Strauss - MIA

I just made this turn order up, but it seems as good as any. Anybody who cares to comment on the order is welcome.

Next player: If the worker build is continued, move from the forest to the copper. We pick up an extra gold for research.

Tech: I think Ag should be next now, so we can grow faster for whipping. If not Ag, then hunting/AH.