SGOTM 06 - Fifth Element

Good job on the Oracle!
We should probably raze all these smaller cities, since we can't pay for them, and they aren't improved properly yet.
We could probably use another production city.
Would it be worth it sending a single unit due west to check if there's someone there?
 
Very nice, The Oracle is a big step. Having a religion is important, although I see we haven't made it our state religion yet. I suppose there's no need to do so until happiness starts to become an issue. The culture alone will be a big boost. Hopefully we can get lucky with religion spread :)

It seems to me we're at something of an inflection point. We're not quite ready for a full-fledged military offensive yet (we will wait until Construction) but we also want to develop our home front. At the same time we want some military forces to be harrassing our opponents, razing their small cities and pillaging their improvements.

Dutchfire is right in that we could use another production city, and soon. The obvious choice for that is the rice+gold city, which when fully developed will have 6 hills to work, including the gold. The only problem there is that it will take a long time to develop, with most of its tiles covered by jungle. Plus, we don't yet have agriculture.

The library in London is good for now: we can use the boost to our research. We will have to be careful with our micromanagement there, though, as we probably don't want our GPP pool there to be polluted with GS points; first things first, we want a GP for our shrine.

After the Library, I think London should work on another Settler, and then probably another Worker, while York works on cranking out some chariots for harrassment. We have a decent harrassing force heading SE to (hopefully) raze Utica, which is hopefully only guarded by one archer. That will do for harrassment for now, but we also want to send some 2-3 unit forces over to MM to keep him occupied, and try to deny metals. Our single warrior seems to be doing a wonderful job of dissuaging Alexander from his gold :)

I think we should interrupt Masonry for Agriculture so as to get our third city up and running, and I think delaying for Iron Working may be worth it as well. We still have a lot of jungle to clear, and knowing where iron is located will do wonders for our harrassment. Plus, we might always get lucky :) Additionally, we will need it for Calendar (via Compass) so it's not like it's out of our way. I think we can skip pottery for the time being. Most of our commerce in the foreseeable future should come from our gold mines.

In short, I think I'm advocating focusing on our home front for now, with York doing what it can to build us some harrassing forces. Get a 3rd city online, which should start to become useful sometime close to when we research Construction. Then we should be well-poised to take over the world :)

BTW, I do have the save, but I think I'll delay playing for at least 24h, so that we can get everyone's input as to what my plan should be. That's assuming Sweetaschon doesn't pop in ready to play, of course.
 
I disagree on a couple of items. We need to start offensive operations against our competitors now. They're out-expanding us, and two of them are financial. We all know about Hannibal's military aggressiveness, and Mansa and Hanni are both money-making tech nightmares.

We should have had mugging stacks out to intercept those settlers.

If we want a production city, then we should just go take one. We don't have time to screw about building settlers. Stacks need to be prepared, whipped if necessary, to accomplish this as soon as possible.

We don't need to know where iron is. We just need to pillage every mine we see.

CRC's graph tells me they probably built stonehenge, maybe the oracle, too. The mids is another possibility, but the huge spike in culture looks like monuments in all cities. Their concurrent power rise suggests they they likely had a bunch of units queued with 1 turn remaining, and then let them all build. We know what this team is capable of from earlier games, and we're already slipping way, way behind them.

Look at where we are on the in-game power graphs already. There's a bad storm on the horizon if we don't get a functional military up NOW. I don't think we are in good shape, and this is no time for bashful carebear play. Get to construction ASAP, and go kick some ass.
 
Before to read your last comments i prepared this with notepad, so i post it, then after that i'll aswer to your comments.

First of all i wish to try to explain my "overactivity" in this game:
1) i like it, and i have good feelings on it
2) i'm a quattromaster, but i never won a prize, but the infamous wooden spoon
3) i got an experience in team work (and leading) i used for (too many) years at work, and i have an experience also in planning and managing all the budget/forecasts/reporting activities of a decent sized factory
4) putting all the above together, is it possible i can not use them in our team to try to win something?

This time the answer is YES!
_______________________
My ideas for a plan:

I was thinking to whip the library in London, but this will cut our production.
I think is better swhitch from time to time between banana and dyes to have some growth/add some more research.
The fp S of York must be farmed, to allow to work horses and ivory.

Research: perhaps agri before contruction, it needs only 6 turns, and it's a pre-requisite for pottery
Or straight, i have no opinion on this.

Surely, after contruction: Agri-Pottery-IW-Sail-calendar.

We must decide if settle the rice+gold city, and if on coast or where i put it in my dot-map.
I'm in favor of coast, we can hope that Confu spread there.

We can also switch to Caste, hire an artist gives quick border expansion, then switch again to Slavery when we need to whip.
I know those are turns of anarchy, but we can try to compare the costs/benefits of this.
In addition, our present cities don't let us use the whip extensively.

I wish explain my reasons when i started the library in London: we have enough units yet to protect, explore and pillage, but cut the 25% of time needed for the cats online seemed a good deal.
We need some 10 turns before horses come on line, and some 6 or so, moving the worker now roading the hill near London to York before ivory.
The library is due in 4, so another archer/axe and start with chariots.

Construction is:
- 39 turns away working banana at 80% with +1gpt
- 31 working dyes at 90% with -1gpt
but after the library, and moving the slider between 80-90% we can have it in some 25.

We must MM well: 80% for 5 turns, while working banana and building the library, then 90% while working dyes for some 10 turns, and this way for the rest.

I've tried to put those calculations on a spreadsheet, but there should be something fishy: i started with exactly the same beakers as you can see in the F6 screen, but it gives me 45 turns instead of the 39 (35+4) i can see in F6. I suppose we have some kind of discount for some tech we have of some other mechanic. Anyway the library net us some 4 to 5 bpt.

We are currently on turn 113, we can have construction on turn 143, roughly compensating the best we can have now with the benefits of the library.

London have 14H/t production, that means 1archer/axe every (37+52=89) 6 turns, with overflow of 5H.
For turn 143 we can have: 2 archers, 3 axes and 5 chariots.
Now the barracks in York are due in 18, after horses we'll gain 2H (we must remember to work that tile) pasture before road so barracks will be roughly ready in 13, say turn 125. In the meantime it will grow at 3 (13 turns), and it can work ivory that should be improved, adding 3h+2g, for 8H total: this means an axe every 6.5 turns, or 3 more axes ready at turn 143.

The above can be plan A

PLan B can insert a settler (10 turns) after the first pair: this guy can settle in turn 134 and start working gold while building a library: this way the city will pay for its maintenance, and give a small contribution to the research.
The counterside it that we renounce to 3 archers, or the equivalent, plus one to garrison the city.

fast comment: Merum seems in favor of plan A :lol:
 
@dutchfire
i agree about razing the small and undeveloped cities

@civicide and Merum
with 6 units added to to ones we have, we can surely have done better on the harass/scout front.
This is roughly the cost for the Oracle, a free tech, a religion and possibly a GP in 50 turns.
But we chose a mid/long-term benefit, hoping it pays off.
What if Astro is needed? and consequentially more advanced techs?

@team
I think I agree with Merum: Athens is a good production city, a worker is already there, what we need is a good stack of axes and cats (not much, the right measure) to take it, then Alex will be crippled and his death will be a matter of time.

In the meantime we must:
- pillage everything Hanni has in sight, until a new stack will be ready for him, that will be our second target,
- keep a mini-stack to pillage Mali, if MM has no cottages or gold, he can throw his financial trait in the bog,
- scout north, we must know our continent, who cares the sea? (short term).

Resuming from my previous:
If plan A will be adopted, and if we can keep all our present units alive, this can be our army in turn 143:
- London: 1 archer to garrison, 1 axe along the borders
- York: same, better add a chariot and the unpromoted warrior
- Mali: 1 chariot/axe/archer combo can be enough to keep MM at bay
- Cartago: we need more, better add another axe to the Mali stack
- Athens: once the archer/axe will be ready in London, let's move the medic1 warrior in York, to add him to the SoD
- the first chariot can be sent north in scouting duties, it should be back in time to join the stack, or join the axe/archer mini-stack in Mali.

now (turn 113) our army counts:
2 warriors
4 archers
2 axes

in turn 143 it can be:
2 warriors
6 archers (do we need all those?)
8 axes
5 chariots

in my garrison/commando plan i listed (forget the warriors):
4 archers
5 axes
2 chariots

this left the following ready for Athens:
2 archers
3 axes
3 chariots
... pitiful

a catapult costs 60h, London can produce 1 in 4 turns (only 2h left, we can have them by switching for 1 turn to the mine) and York 1 in 7.5 turns
a WE costs 90h, i'm afraid it's too much for our present production

a cat needs 4 turns to arrive from London to York, then 2 more to arrive on the present Corinth borders (we must road to there) the road will be: ivory SE, ivory 2S, grassland 3S1W to York, in case even on the desert 4S1W to York

If we assume that a stack of 6 cats (4 from London+2 from York) added to the pitiful one listed above is enough we can be on greek borders with that stack in turn 161, sparing an archer to escort the 6th cat to the front, or we have to wait turn 165.

Plan B will delay too much this: before being able to reach good production, too much time is needed, and we'll end with 4 less units: 3 not produced + 1 to garrison the city.

We can also use the whip for a cat in London even if i don't like much since we lack food.

Comments and suggstions appreciated
 
I'd have to agree with Merum, our position isn't all that strong... well, it's ok, but if we're trying to get close to a laurel, we need to play tightly.

Firstly, i don't understand our push for CoL. Courts? OK, will be useful, but not for another 30-50 turns; Religion? Tell me we're not going to waste hammers on missionaries when they could be cats?!! The +1 gold for each city will not be that great, considering we're thinking about conquest, which requires razing alot so we don't go bankrupt. The :happy: will be useful, but we're on prince, and there are resources around which would do better. Culturally, an obelisk costs less than a missionary. Remember, Hindu Carthge is right next door. I really would've preferred MC, but that's all in the past, now. Perhaps someone can explain exactly what the plan is for confucianism?

The army plan sound good, Blubmuz, however, I think we can damage Alex and Hanni without cats if we want to. I will get info on them during my TS, unless you know what's in Corinth and Utica from your TS??

TS Plan (10-12 hrs):
0% science until library completes, then to 100% on masonary>agri>construction - nets the 125% science on the remaining 4 turns of the lib.
London - lib>worker>axe
York - barracks (zzzz - chop) > axe
Workers to complete horse pasture, farm floodplain, camp ivory, road to enemy, etc

Yes I know the production of a worker means 1 less axe/archer combo or a couple of chariots (possibly useless in the SoD stack anyway) but we are woefully low on workers, and chopping york outside the BFC will make up for it.
 
Nooooooo! Not a worker!

Once we start taking cities, we're going to be awash in them. Stack up and go take a city before Alex hooks those horses! :D
Agreed!
I don't want add much, i already spammed this page.

Sweeta, your idea to go at 0% science 'til library is good, we'll avoid a lot of MM; also, you'll want to work banana 'til there.
Utica is defended by an archer and a 0XP axe.
Sparta and Corinth should have 2 archers each.

I'd like to take one of those cities, but i wish prioritize the pillaging of Carthage (the city).

There's a pair (axe+archer) NW of Utica, i'd like to use them to try to find Carthage and pillage the copper, along with any other improvement we can see.
This means no more axes or spears from any AI, thus less trouble.

We can't farm the fp, we lack agri, and we do not research it 'til after construction. But the chop can surely help, and you can use it after the road/pasture/camp plan will be done.

Don't underestimate the chariots: with 4 of them you can easily conquer a city guarded by 2 archers in plain.

Your critics about CoL were debated, but we chose CoL: if you were here things can have been different, but that's it.

Until we'll know how our "world" is made, we can't know if this will be a conquest or a domination game, and even if we raze all the minor and undeveloped cities and keep the AI capitals, CH will help.

In any case, we need some production, and we can't afford any victory which implies a navy (galleys or galleons) without a good economy and a good production.

Tell us if you have more variations to add, then, after it will be approved, stay on it.

edit
- i'd like to send a unit to protect our warrior close to Athens, and to further explore and retreat.
- there's a worker on a hill close to London, road it, then send him to York
- as soon as horses will be on line, build a chariot and send it North in scouting duties.
 
Agreed!
I don't want add much, i already spammed this page.

:lol: Priceless :D

Agreed, the axe/archer will search for Carthage, pillaging on the way (oh, for some chariots!)

The thing about the workers from the enemy is that we won't get any until we take the capital(s), and that won't happen until cats, which is tech/build/travel time of 40 turnsish. Just too long. A built worker is merely 7 turns.

I really think that agri should be before const - York just wont function well without it. If you really don't want either of these choices to happen, you'd better convince me before I play.

edit
OK, noone is here, I'll make a judgement call on these 2 issues ingame, depending on what the scouts turn up. yep, an archer will be sent to relieve the warrior in Greece. Actually, considering the polarity of the discussion, I'll play in the morning... 8-10 hrs.
 
Okay, we've got Confucianism in London and York, we should probably make it our state religion asap.

The religion has also given York the much needed border, so that's another benefit of the religion. I think our conquering stack should take Utica and the two Greek cities first, so it can get some experience, and so it has something to do while it's waiting for catapult reinforcements.

Is there any room in the plans to send out a single unit west?
 
@Sweeta
Thanks for the appreciation :D still, i continue;)

A worker costs us 2 units, but perhaps he can pay this be chopping around York... if u like, go ahead.
I agree about the need to farm the fp (but we'll need to protect it, too), it depends on how many turns we have 'til construction, and you can know it once the library, together with the 0-100 thing will be completed.

If we lost only a couple turns it can be worth, and the worker you want produce in London can farm the dyes. Perhaps can be worth whip him for 1 pop? but start an axe first, not complete, we can be in need.

And build a chariot after the worker, we must scout.

@Dutch
i don't see benefits in switching to a SR: the culture is the same from a religion in a city if you got no religion or if you're running the city's religion.
Since we have no happiness problems (for now) we can delay it.

Scouting: there's nothing in west, perhaps you would mean north?
 
@BLubmuz: there's a landbridge W of London that's looking rather suspicious. Since this map is Gyathaar-made, chances are that there is something there.
 
Here are some of my thoughts (I can probably spare a few) to add to the mix:
Units:
I'm not against the plan to do a worker, but like Blubmuz states, let's get an Axeman started first and then switch so it can be rushed in 1 turn if needed.
Then:
Military expansions should happen now and quickly. This is not to capture cities...yet, but to camp out side the cities in enough force to capture any Settlers/escorts the AI sends out. We need to ensure their expansion stops now, we don't know what land Hannibal or Mansa have available that we can't see yet. They may be expanding, just not in a direction we can see. Alex appears to have the least room for expansion, and the most easily contained IF he doesn't have Copper or Iron.
They will also start sending out a couple of units at a time to threaten our cities. To our benefit, the AI usually doesn't send out enough units that can overpower us.

Research - to figure out when we need Construction..., if Ivory will be hooked up and worked about the same time (or before) Construction is complete, then we need to do Construction first, then Agri, Pottery

Pilliaging - Figure out which of the AI cities we can keep, even capturing and waiting for a marginal city to improve is preferable to razing them all then waiting on a Settler, moving it into position, settling, and then waiting for growth

Lastly - I'm off for the next week so continuing play doesn't bother me, If we can make sure that some discussion takes place between TS, and play slows or stops if necessary until sufficient discussion takes place.
 
@Dutch
I'm not sure, and i cannot open the save, but that jungle W of London seems more a "tongue" than land-bridge. Of course there can be a canal, but since we lack sail, and a coastal city, we must wait.

@GB
there's a sort of plan in my #145
Let's say that, if with agri we can be in the same situation at turn 161, can be OK.
 
OK, sorry people, I've run out of time, and won't be back with Civ until the 27th or so (skip). As I've said, I'm busy this week with family, I'll probably be able to view the forums, though.
 
To let you know, i'll be busy tomorrow and maybe the day after (here is holyday, and it's my b.day :banana: , too).

So, :xmassign: to you all.

Though i'll can be online, not much to do, we got a sort of plan, with some room for variations.
Sweeta's idea about worker can be not bad, if we can have a couple more cats from chopping in York.

Don't forget the rule: number of workers = number of cities +1 (or 2 if lot of jungle to clear).

I think Civ is up, if he can post a TS plan to - in case - refine.
 
Merry Christmas :xmascheers:

By the way, I'll be on holiday from the 1st until the 6th of January (skiing :)). I don't really care if we play on during the holidays, as I can't play anyway.

Graph gazing:
CRC's culture! I'd say it's about 23 culture/turn over the last 35 turns.
 
Okay, if I'm up, I can post something of a plan. However it may take some time, it being the holidays and all. I'm visiting family but still have a little "down time" and I have my computer with me.

I'll go with the team consensus to focus on military for the time being, with the possible option of squeezing in a worker. I'll take another look at the save to see exactly how much the extra worker is likely to benefit us prior to the likely time frame in which we're going to start taking AI capitals. As a guess I'd say I'm against it, and that if we're focusing on military we should focus on military.

I'll take another look later today and try to post something resembling a plan.
 
The main difficulty to draw a plan now is that we don't know if this one can be a domination or a conquest game.
Can we affirm that:
- it will be a domination if Astro will be necessary or
- it will be conquest if we can do with galleys?

For now i can surely affirm that we need no less than 60 turns to know the answer, probably more since we lack a coastal city, and until the fall of Athens this will continue.

About next TS: as i already said at Sweeta, do what you can to stay on the plan that *should* bring enough units to the greek borders on turn 161.
His idea to run 0 research until library, to maximize after is good.
For the worker, i don't know: with all those enemy units around York, i don't wanna waste units protecting farms, we can go with 2.

edit
not a post in over 2 days!
i'm glad you've found something better to do than play or post battleplans! sincerely...
 
Back
Top Bottom