SGOTM 06 - Misfits

[AlanH]

Welcome to your C_IV Warlords SGOTM 6 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The Game

Gyathaar is playing this one close to his chest. Here's all the intelligence I've been able to wring out of him:

• Prince difficulty
• Epic speed
• You play as the Charismatic, Protective Churchill of the English Empire.
• You start with Fishing and Mining.
• Your unique unit is the Redcoat, replacing the Rifleman.
• Your Unique building is the Stock Exchange, replacing the Bank.
• The map is a highly modified Cylindrical Big And Small map, using the BtS map script. It is Standard, Temperate, Medium sea level.
• Always war. All VCs are enabled. I think the barbs are at default setting.

Here's the start - click the picture for one a bit bigger.

​

Versions
This game will be played in Warlords Version 2.13, on Windows only, with the DLLs as installed with BtS.

It will be played using the current version of the HoF Mod. This is version 2.13.002 for Windows. You will need to ensure that you can run the Asset Checker v2 before you attempt to load this game. Typlically, players who have upgraded to Beyond the Sword will have the right assets. Alternatively, you should be able to make your installation compliant by installing the new .DLLs released for WOTM 15. If you have a Steam installation then you will need to look at this post by ArcadicGamer for inspiration.

If later versions of Warlords or the HoF Mod are released they cannot be used for this game, and you will need to maintain a copy of your installed software at these versions to complete the game.

Timetable
The game will start on December 14th. I recommend you plan for a 4 month deadline for completion.

You will be able to download your start save from the SGOTM Progress and Results Page on December 14th, at midnight local server time.

Notes

• Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• Warlords v.2.13 is supported for this SGOTM. No other versions can be used, and you will have to stick with the same version throughout the game.
  
• Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The number of awards may be reduced, depending on the number of teams who sign up.
  
• Awards will be given to teams who win in the least turns.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Enjoy your mystery tour of the World of Warlords.

 

[marowaker]

First to Check in

Unfortunately, I will not be available to play the game until January the 18th at the earliest.

To try make up for it, here are my ideas for the beginning of the AW game.

Like the last game, WW will be crippling. Unlike the last game, we can prevent it by killing units in our own borders. We should try to minimize WW as best as we can this way. This is more of a long term game plan, only but this is just to my experience.

We can also cripple other civs by chocking them with an early archer. Make sure they have have no improvements built and they are no longer a threat.

I have no idea how kind Gyathaar is with nearby civs, so whether or not he put 2 right next to us, military is important from turn one. Build a warrior while researching Archery while using the starting warrior to scout out a bit. The AI also like to make stacks of units fairly early (1000BC-500BC) so make sure we are reasonable on defence.

I would suggest moving the warrior W or SW to start.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Well, let's not move anything for a bit...

Last time I played a *otm with AW on prince, I was slaughtered. They band together and come after you. We need lots of discussion, and if we don't have an elite player (don't be shy... really), we need to see if we can find someone to give us a hand. My first SGOTM was cool, but reading the other threads was eye-opening!

 

[namliaM]

Reserved for links to sets discusion points and play sets

namliaM's opening turnset 4000 BC thru 2950 BC
Research: Agriculture => Hunting => AH (find horses!)
Build: Worker => Warrior
Kill 2 scouts and a Lion, First blood
2 Dotmaps without BW 2950 BC

ArcadicGamer (short) following set 2950BC thru 2470BC
Research: BW => Wheel
Finds our copper,
Hannibal gets Buddism,
Find MM east of London and find hannibal South of MM.

Settled dotmap for initial cities

ChrisFromLux' first 9 Starting 2470 up to 2170BC
Research: Wheel (for the copper) => Mysticism (for Monument in new city)
- Scout Hannibal, has Bronze and Horses
- Kill another animal, a bear this time.
ChisFromLux' second 10 to lead up to 1900BC
Research: Mysticism => Pottery
- Find Alex
- 2 Axemen on the march for a quick visit on MM
- Alex builds Sparta for us, on the Banana/Elepant/Horses spot SE of London.
- MM goes Hindu on us

Mastiff of Ar's turn log was rather dispersed, due to very unforseen circumstances.
Overall research: Writing => Mathmatics
First two turns Due to a barb warrior showing up South of London.
Also killing a scout
After 10 turns Because of 2 of Alex' Archers showing up south of London to give us a headache.
We lost 2 Axemen at 86% and 69% odds, but eventually killed the Archers.
And the last 5 turns

Due to absence of two teammembers, I am up next (again).
namliaM's turnset 1450BC - 1000BC
Research: Mathmatics still
- TAKE SPARTA! on the Banana/Horse/Elephant spot
- Build Worker
- Lose 1 Axe, 1 Warrior
- Kill 1 Archer, 2 Warriors of Alex' (in sparta obviously)
- Kill 1 Skirmisher (MM obviously)
- MM (probably) founds Judaism

AG was skipped for now, making ChrisFromLux up again, his turnset 1000BC - 850BC
With autologs in the next post
- Pillage Hannibals Copper and Horses
- Kill 1 barb Warrior
- Alexander converts to Buddism (brothers with Hannibal now)

Mastiff of Ar is up next, his report
- Lose 2 axemen trying to raze Hadrumetum, one of Hannibal's cities. Losing one Axe at 59%
but this nets us an extra worker
- 2 skirmishers show up near sparta, but that is for next time.
- 2 barbarian cities spawn north of our lands

A short pauze till new years to wait for AG to be back. Otherwize it would go down to a 3 man rotation.
This gives us time for a bigger dotmap

Arcadic Gamer returned in the new year, giving us this report
Research: Construction
- Lose one spear to a skirmisher in/near sparta
- Alexander compleets the Stonehedge

That finalises again our 4 man rotation making namliaM up again. I played the set in 2 parts because we generated a GG, which I didnt know what to do with.
The report is here
- Raze Alex' new city (Thebes), killing a C2 Axe.
- Spawn a GG, settle him in London

Chris did his bit leading our country from 400bc to 250bc
Losing his first units
The beakers learned us the remainder of Construction and Sailing, now working on Calander
- 1 chariot vs Archer at 73%
- 1 Axe vs Archer at 95%
- 1 Axe vs Archer at 85%
RNG is NOT liking our team.
- Settled Nothingham near the 2 gold up north
- A GP was born in Athens which founded Theocracy in Corinth

 

[namliaM]

I am a bit of a discussion freak on how the game should be run. But discussion is something the entire team must be willing to do...
So here are my thoughts for the game, hoping that everyone is into discussing things. If not... please let me know and I will shut the F... up.

I have even made a starting save with the opening screeny, made a little more civs on a pangea map. I also made sure that all the civs immediatly know us by worldbuildering in a scout per civ just north of our first city. I allready settled in place, I suggest everyone try it...

I offcourse have no clue, but us beeing protective I will hazard a guess that we whill have no Horses or Metals anywhere realisticaly grabable for our first 3 or 4 cities. Therefor I think priority techs are/should be (in no particular order)
- BW (Whipping => Everybody is familiar with whipping right?)
- Agriculture (Farm the Banana and Dye)
- AH (Cows)
- Construction (Catapults are important weapons)

All this is presuming we have neighbours and are not on an isolated island someplace. I think we need to scout a little bit to find out, but straying with the opening warrior to far is not a real option.

There are a couple of things we need to talk about I think.
1) Settling
Do we settle in place or do we want/need to settle on a hill for the added defensive bonus? If on a hill, which one?
Options:
a) 1 SE of the current position
Down sides
- waste 1 turn
- waste 1 forrest
- Pick up 4 jungle tiles in the BFC (2 of which are hills)
Up:
- On a hill
- 2 rivers for added protection on the east and west sides of the city
- Basicaly add 1 (jungle) hill to our production pool
b) 2 East
Down sides
- Wast 2 turns
- Get a semi bad tile (imho) with the resourceless Plains hill
Up side
- Blue circle (tho I dont put to much fath into it)
- Basicaly the same city we have now, but on a hill

2) Build order
a) Worker first (handbuild)
b) Something first, whip worker
Where/when do we insert the barracks? And/or a granary/library/etc?

3) Tech order
a) Agriculture, Hunting, AH, Archery, BW
To improve the resources ASAP this one goes kind of together with 2a
b) BW, Agri

Well those things are the things I am wondering about, so... if we are all up for discussion I hope to find many a reactions... If not, thats OK too...
I hope we have a fun game either way....

Greetings

The Mailman

 

[ChrisFromLux]

Hi Guys, just checking in to my 1st SGOTM.

I'm Chris, from Luxembourg (Europe / GMT +01:00), but unfortunately, I'm definitely no elite player!

I'll be back later this evening, to give my opinions on namliaM's ideas. I've no problems with many discussions, but I'm not sure if I'll be of much help. We'll see ...


But in the mean-time: does anyone own BtS, to generate some maps with the "Cylindrical Big And Small map" option, even if it's 'highly modified'???

Another problem for me: I'll have to play some Test-games with an AW-setting, as I haven't played that option yet ...


Chris

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I'm with you namlia, discussion is a very good thing, and we should do plenty of it before we even start!

Settling:

Aside from moving the warrior SW (That'd be my first move), and seeing something we can't live without, I'd probably vote to settle in place. By the time we're needing the extra 25% hills defense, we'd be already dead meat. Early on we'll see some barbs, but I don't see an AI rush before we found a city or two.

Tech:

Also, finding metal / horses seems like a must. We might want to BW first, then if we don't find copper, get to archery. That would require hunting, so we can get a scout looking around. So...

BW (no copper)--> Hunting --> Archery --> AH

BW (copper) --> Hunting --> Ag --> AH

Build:

How fast will we expand the capital on epic? I'd think we'd want to mine that gold early for the commerce. They will be trading like madmen since they'll have the "mutual struggle" against us, and we'll have no one. If we don't keep up with the military techs, we'll be in trouble.

I know we'll do some mapping once we have more info on what's around us, but I see a tight city spacing doing well for us.

More later!

MF

 

[ChrisFromLux]

For our first moves, I'm with Mastiff_of_Ar: we should move our warrior on the hill SW, and if we don't see an interesting resource, we should settle in place.

If we go for BW first, to whip/chop, we have 3 options to work:

• 
  lake/dye: worker in 30T, BW in 19T

• 
  lake/dye, banana after 8T: worker in 25T, BW in 20T

• 
  cow, banana after 8T: worker in 23T, BW in 21T (my vote)

For our research:

• 
  BW (copper) --> Hunting --> AH for the cows (why do you want to go to Agr first?)

• 
  
  BW (no copper) --> Hunting -->
  • 
    AH (horses) --> HR (for HA)
  • 
    AH (no horses) --> Archers

This way, we'll have some kind of defenses, and can expand and develop our cities ...!?!

Now tell me where I'm wrong

 

[namliaM]

warrior on the hill SW

The blue circles seem to indicate resources to our east... which is why I would move my warrior Nort East, but that will expose 1 tile... not very helpfull. Moving SW will not reveal much intresting if you go by the circles.
Moving the settler 2 south is allmost a non option from the start, losing the Cows and picking up a bunch of Jungle. AND leaving the city without a 3 food tile in the initial 9.

I wouldnt go HBR so early, we atleast need pottery, Agri and writing prior to HBR.

The whole point of going BW first is to grow the city to Size 2, start the worker and whip the worker into completion, isnt it?

We want to have agriculture to farm the Banana for the extra food untill we get Calander. What is more getting both Agri and Hunting prior to AH will get us a discount on researching AH. Less beakers to spend.

On BW/Horses, I am betting on no early resources but for our protective Archers. Either no resources or plenty of them and no neighbours.

I havent a clue how effective such a late scout would be at AW settings, getting killed at the first sight of any warrior.

I am with MoA tho, we need the gold ASAP, but we also need the food to work that darned hill. So we need a 4 food tile (preferably 2) => Cows + Banana's are just that.

I by the way am from Amsterdam, so just a few hours away from Luxemburg

 

[cnwjr]

Just a quick check-in.

One comment comes to mind about AW. No tech trades. Period. We will have to do everything ourself.

The WW from AW will keep us from getting very large cities, so we might not want to bother with a lot of development unless we spam a few cities to take advantage of it.

I think we need to consider what our goals are going to be before we spend a lot of time developing.

We should seriously consider archery very early (before the barbs come a-calling). As protective, we get the free city defense promotion.

Before we lose the ability to build warriors (mining a metal), we might want to build a number of MPs for happiness.

Basically, though, I suspect we might want to see what's around us, find problematic nearby enemies, and prepare to wipe them off the planet.

For namliaM, we did a little discussion in our last game, but then often ignored it when we played. Some of us were good at talking, but thought we needed 100% agreement or would do their own thing.

I have BtS and will spend some time looking at typical maps this weekend. I won't have much time before Sunday to do so.

 

[ArcadicGamer]

Big and Small is esssentialy Continents with sparatic islands around the coast. Depending on the Islands setting, they can be from 1-3 tiles to as much as 25 tiles. Resources are generaly on them, but with the map being modded, nothing is for sure. Continents can range from 2-8 per settings, with islands around each. I can dig through some of my old BTS mp games to provide some examples. We can assume that there will be 2-3 conts., and since there are 7 total civs, we can expect to meet 2-3 for sure. Land is usualy plenty for 6 good cities with backfill for later.

I would HIGHLY advise downloading the WOTM12 which was always war and playing it once. Read the corresponding spoiler threads also. Many players tried to scout and expand like a normal game, and ended up with a loss. Many got copper/iron and couldnt keep it connected to their cities due to the constant steam of attackers. Which brings me to a point, We need archery ASAP. While we may get copper in the first BFC, unless its next the the capitol it will be hard to defend if we get swarmed. With archery we can use that protective ASAP and have something to fall back on.

Summary: Scouting our lands can backfire, since the second we see anyone they DOW. If we can keep the farthest civs from seeing us, we can pick off the closest first, while building up infastructure. (infastructure=more military) If we see stone somewhere 2nd city usable, i'd highly suggest the great wall. The ability to keep barbs at bay is priceless when your going to have other wars to deal with.

I need to get back to work, but i got more thoughts on how to play our first turns after that.

 

[namliaM]

As protective, we get the free city defense promotion.

Who cares about the city promotion when your improved lands are beeing pillaged?? I love protective for the free -first strike thing- (I forget the name sorry)

warriors (mining a metal), we might want to build a number of MPs for happiness.

I agree, tho if we bypass Feudalism we can build cheap archers for a long time.... Getting to many units to early will cost our costly GPT => Beakers.

I have BtS and will spend some time looking at typical maps this weekend. I won't have much time before Sunday to do so.

Dont know how much good it will do us... but go ahead

Planning and discussing should be all about general concensus, in past SGOTM I played with VQ... where I have played sets (even complete parts of the game) completely contrary to how I wanted to play them, as that is what the team wanted to do. SGOTM is all about team, if not we might as well just play it as a GOTM or just SP.

This is a must, the good teams ALL are teams, no team = no chance.
No team = less fun
No team = less learning from eachother
We all lose out, so lets get this together ASAP.

Summary: Scouting our lands can backfire, since the second we see anyone they DOW. If we can keep the farthest civs from seeing us, we can pick off the closest first, while building up infastructure. (infastructure=more military) If we see stone somewhere 2nd city usable, i'd highly suggest the great wall. The ability to keep barbs at bay is priceless when your going to have other wars to deal with.

Scouting and getting contacts is ineffitable, tho if we scout I agree if we can avoid contact... do so... it would be great if we can determain the time of contact, when we are ready for it.

Infra tho is not about military, but rather about buildings and timing of them. The capitol is going to be in dire need of a library ASAP with that gold + Dye = good early commerce if we get it up ASAP.
Great wall was something I was thinking about actually, more GG points for when we are fighting in our own borders Tho can we spare the (early) hammers???

 

[ArcadicGamer]

Starting off...

I was thinking moving the settler 1W would be a decent option for settling. Primary reason is that it frees up the 2nd gold and banana for use of a decent 2nd/3rd city, pending metals/resources. Also the circles seem to think there is something NW by showing us to settle on the gold. While we cant be for sure whats 1W 1 SW, it seems to be a hills/plain which would be decent, and free up the starting tile for a river cottage/farm. It also puts all 3 resources in the 9 starting tiles. 1SE is also attractive, but the jungle hinders it. The upside is while growing while researching BW, we'd have a 3 food 1 gold tile to work, both boosting research and growth and worker building. The defence bonus has already been mentioned also, but if that becomes a factor we are in worse trouble than we thought.

About the GW, If we can get an archer into a stone city by 2000BC and start it, it should only take ~30 turns. Mind you, that involves actualy getting masonry by that time, which will be a dilly of a pickle to do. I say if the land is favorable to attempt it, get it. I've built it with a pop 2 stone city, usualy my third, by 1500bc on prince. However, the scouting we do should reveal if barbs are going to be around past 1ad, due to lack of land or other scenarios. The worst thing that can happen is if a neighboor gets it and there is still a bunch of fog. Attempting it in a 3rd city and failing also gives ~150-200 gold to keep the silder @100 for a few more turns. In the end, we'll see if the land supports it.

 

[namliaM]

I went and downloaded the save, foggazing learned me:

PT = Plains tile (not a hill)
PH = Plains hill

@AG the tile W-SW of the setller is DEFININATLY not a hill, if it were we would be able to see it.
There are 3 plains hills, two of them are gold (no way I would like to settle on top of gold!) and the one 2 NE of the settler, leaving most the goodies behind.

There is more jungle to our south and east, this would guestimate us at the equatar. Jungle guarantees grass, farmed grass will give food to work that gold mine...

I could see a city on the question mark in the (near) future (once we have IW, probably)

 

[ChrisFromLux]

If we trust the blue circles, then they tell us there are resources to the NW and to the SE, because the starting circle and the one 2W each have 4 resources (we see) in their FC, whereas the NW-Gold-circle has only 2 visible resources, and the SE-Gold-Circle has 3 resources in his BFC

To settle 1W and liberate banana & gold for another city is a good idea, in my opinion. To be sure about what new tiles we'll get in the FC, we should still start by moving the Warrior 1SW!

But I've got another idea: what about settling 1SW. This would still free up the banana and gold for another city, we would get the health-bonus for being on fresh water, and maybe we could connect to a copper/iron city using the river, which can't be pillaged!?!
Of course, the cow and the gold wouldn't be in the 9 starting tiles, which makes it harder to defend them ...

 

[namliaM]

1 west we lose the fresh water bonus and pick up useless water in our capitols BFC (just west of the western gold).

I would either settle in place or (losing 1 turn) go 1SE, opening the western gold to a coastal city there someplace (presuming there is sea + seafood there) and picking up the eastern gold in our BFC.

The rest of the land would be a good trade off too, basicaly trading 2 plains and a grassland hill for 1 grassland (jungle!) and 2 grass hill (Jungle too!) Also as an added bonus we have more river tiles = more commerce in the future in our burocratic capitol.

Downsides:
- Atleast 4 jungle tiles in the BFC (probably 5)
- Lose 1 turn for moving
- Lose 1 forrest for a chop (30 hammers pre-math)
Possible ups:
- The gold hill (which we will probably be working all game) gets +1 commerce
- More commerce, overall
- open up the west for coastal cities?
- Defence bonus (hopefully not need it tho)
- No need for a road to get the gold to the city (once mined)

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

With regards to scouting, I suggest we work the warrior in a fairly tight circle around the capitol. Even if a resource is way out there, we'd have trouble holding it if it's too distant. Might be smart to just settle on a metal, particularly if there's a water connection... just random thoughts.

EDIT: I'm going to fiddle around with the test map tonight. Also, if we can select a batting order, the first player can move the warrior and give us all a screenshot with the new info...

 

[ChrisFromLux]

I don't see your problems with scouting .

For the 1st warrior, OK, he has to defend the capital; so he can only scout around a bit.

But we can scout wherever we want with a 2nd warrior/scout. No matter how many civs we find, it won't hurt our WW unless we fight.

I've started a test game on a continent-map with the same settings, and my 3 neighbors all found me in the first ~20 turns ...

 

[namliaM]

The faster they find us or we find them, the faster we get "visits". Postponing the visits even 1 turn can be crutial...

I have done some math using a spreadsheet. Presuming we settle someplace (on the spot?) with a 3 food in the initial 9 and another in the BFC (Cows and Banana)....

1. Whipping worker
Research BW => Agriculture => Hunting => AH => Archery => The Wheel => Fishing => Pottery
Build something (barracks?) to grow to size 2 in 11 turns, start the worker, revolt to slavery, whip the worker for 1 pop.
Build 3 warriors for defence and scouting, while growing to size 4. When Archery is allmost done, restart the barracks and whip it for 2 pop.
Build 2 archers.
Meanwhile, assuming the worker keeps on working:
- Chop the forrest hill SE of the city
- Start a mine on the forrest hill, waiting for Agri to come in
- Stop the mine, Farm the banana
- Hop over to the Dye, farm that
- Cows Pasture it
- Gold hill mine it

Leaving us at turn 75 with
- 3 warriors
- Barracks in the city
- 2 (promoted) archers
- The techs
- Resources improved (time for a settler?)
A city at size 5, 20 food, 80 hammers and 108 commerce to spare.

2. Building worker
Skipping BW for now, researching Agriculture => Hunting => AH => BW => Archery => Wheel => Fishing => Pottery
- Build worker
- 4 Warriors
- Barracks (whipped for 2 pop)
- 2 archers

Meanwhile, assuming the worker keeps on working:
- Farm the Banana
- Pasture the Cows
- Mine the gold
- Farm the dye
- Mine the forrest hill
(for the added chop! or mine the hill south of london to stop the jungle from potentially spreading.)

Leaving us at turn 75 with
- 4 Warriors
- Barracks
- 2 Archers (promoted)
- The techs
- Resources improved
Size 4 city, 35 food, 90 hammers and 214 beakers.

Option 2 seems to be ahead by 106 beakers, 10 hammers and a Warrior.

A big difference tho is the finish times of the warriors
The first warrior in option 2 is done by turn 41, in Option 1 by turn 28,
and warrior 2, in turns 48 and 32.
Offcourse Option 1 is helped in this by the early(er) chop of the forrest and option 2 catches up real fast ending up ahead of option 1 considerably.

Both options, I think, are due for a settler build at this point.

Can someone please confirm or find errors in this?
What alternate scenario's are there? Besides taking the 4 last techs (Archery => The Wheel => Fishing => Pottery) and replacing them by other techs... I just used this tech route cause they contain the techs we are going to need soon....

Researching all optional techs before the target tech (like Agri => Hunting => AH or Wheel => Fishing => Pottery) is much cheaper...
For each additional tech you know over the techs you need to know (i.e. In order to research AH, you need to know Hunting OR Agriculture) you get a 20% bonus on research (accoording to the war academy).
Seeing as we are going to need all techs anyway, lets get them as cheap as possible??

Edit: The worker turns are about even and both options have 8 worker turns to spare to... for example start a road to the gold or the new city, chop a forrest, start cottages, etc...

Edit2: I would also like to do a quick calculation as to AH first... get the cows up ASAP and see what happens. Probably lose commerce gain hammers... but how much?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I don't see your problems with scouting .

In addition to what namlia said, the quicker they meet us and declare war, the faster they pile up the "mutual struggle" points. I wish I were one of those code monkeys who understands all the game mechanics, but don't those points just keep accumulating?