SGOTM 06 - Trash Team

Work has been hectic, but I had a look at the save for the first time in several turnsets.

All in all things are looking good. Something worth considering:

Leave Alex for what he is and move in on Hadremetum. Hanny is getting too strong and Hadrementum gives us jumbo's plus a holy city.

[edit]Bringing the fish and gold mines online with defenses will help our commerce rate a lot. Tricky to protect the fish though..[/edit]
 
Question : do we still have troops next to athens?
If we remove them, and close our perimeter with them while building troops, alex will send a settler stack out , making athens easier to capture.
I don't think we should change targets yet. Maybe go out pillaging whatever we can (metals mostly), but no massive attack.
 
I've kind of been avoiding this because I feel we've not been doing as well as I had anticipated after the clever feudalism slingshot. I'll play this evening and probably focus on building up at least one decent city-busting stack.
 
Palyed four turns; first two were fine; second two (545 and 560) both CTD. This game and I don't seem to be friends at the moment.
I'd better skip after all (a la stuge) and let Cam play from 500ad save without further comment from me.
I'll pm AlanH to advise him of situation.
 
OK ...

  • Greek SoD roaming around - kill it.
  • We want more Catapults, Spears, Swords, pillaging Chariots, and presumably Longbows.
  • Our Athens intimidation battalion should be moved so Athens will suddenly become an easy target, which I'm guessing I'm going to capture with three units.
  • Oh yeah, and I'm supposed to take Hadrumetum but not take units from our perimeter.
I might feign 'computer problems' too so I can pass this poisoned chalice over to the next player. ;)

(Got it ... for what it's going to be worth :shifty:)
 
Well, in light of the previous post ...

In summary I didn't do us great favours in the Power stakes - used a lot of units up, but did make some progress:
  • Captured and razed the Barbarian city of Khoisan.
  • Captured the Carthaginian city of Hadrumetum.
  • Picked up a Great General; Charlemagne, who's sleeping in London.
  • Alex's wandering SoD found its way into our lands, but was able to kill it off, albeit hardly 'flawlessly'.
  • The Athens intimidation team got beaten up once it withdrew from the Gold Hill. Both the Longbows are gone, and the Archer is down behind enemy lines.
  • Spotted the Barbarian city of Illinois which is north of Nottingham - a nice mix of resources if we're prepared to take it.
  • Our Work Boat lives despite being vulnerable to a Malinese craft at one point. New islands spotted but no continental bridge.

I have a turn log saved, but perhaps rather than a blow-by-blow, Alex's SoD came a wandering. I didn't feel that our 1XP Archer would survive a direct conflict, and so they were able to cross into our borders.

sgotm6_600AD_alex_sod.jpg


I compiled a small force of units comprised of city defenders and newly produced, and eventually took this stack out, but lost a Spear (against the odds), Catapult, and Sword in doing so. Those that survived however did get some good promotions.

I also took one of the Barbarian cities in the north;

sgotm6_600AD_khoisan.jpg


... but as noted above, there's another; Illinois, with a nice resource split. It's currently got two unpromoted Archers protecting it.

The real focus of my turnset however was on the Carthaginian city of Hadrumetum. The first half of the turnset was compiling the SoD, getting it to the city, and knocking down its defence;

sgotm6_600AD_before_hadrum.jpg


Note the Carthaginian units on the right hand edge of the image; Longbow, three War Elephants, and two Catapults. We would probably get a counter-strike.

Without going into the gory details, there were some losses ... well more than 'some' :shifty: ... but eventually;

sgotm6_600AD_after_hadrum.jpg


The counter-strike thankfully didn't come that turn, but instead a single Carthaginian Catapult raced over and dealt those units in Hadrumetum some collateral damage. The following turn I was able to move the original attack force in before Hannibal then hit me hard. When the 'dust settled' both sides had lost several units and every unit was injured. I was able to pick off many in the next round, but Hadrumetum remains garrisoned with some fairly vulnerable units. A Longbow is shuffling its way over, but a more potent force is almost certainly required.

The battle did bring about our favourite Holy Roman who I've not used at this point;

sgotm6_600AD_charlemagne.jpg


Alex brought a War Elephant up to Mycanae, which defeated our first Longbow before a second Longbow was able to take care of the incursion. The city's now got a Gold Mine and Grasslands Hill Mine up, but no Work Boat for the Fish.

As also noted above, the two Longbows and Archer perched outside of Athens moved away from the city, and indeed was able to pick off a few roaming Greek units including; a Swordsman, a Catapult, a Horse Archer, and a Archer, but unfortunately they got swamped and our Archer is the last survivor.

Power chart;

sgotm6_600AD_power.jpg


Screen shot;

sgotm6_600AD_screenie.jpg


The save.

Defending Hadrumetum with some Longbows I think should be a priority, although we have knocked Hannibal around a bit. I hope that I haven't left it in too bad shape. A few City Raider Swords have been added to the force to replenish some of the losses.

Roster
- Remconius (up - refer. Pigswill's status)
- chopster (on deck)
- stuge
- cabert
- patagonia
- pigswill (skip possibly?)
- Cam_H
 
Well done Cam!
Finally some real progress. If the next player can do the same for athens, I'll be the most happy of men. Well maybe not, but you can the drill.

I would settle the GG to get 9 XP troops = level 4.
CR3 catapults anyone?
 
Good turnset and Nice progress! :goodjob:

Not too happy about moving stack from Athens. Now Alex can rebuild gold mine and connect copper...

GOT IT
Unless Pigswill wants to slip in a turnset. Post your got it before tonight (12hrs from now) otherwise I'll play.


Plan:

-Consolidate our position. Complete missing roads, up our defenses, build/capture more workers, Grow capital, etc.
-Settle GG for 9xp units.
-Mount an attack force to continue the assault. With Jumbos for real power (Macemen need machinery...)
-Lower priority: Build a workboat (and trireme...)

What should be the next target? Finish off Alex before he regains strength.
 
Just echoing the :goodjob: to Cam.

Keep Hannibal under check and attack Alex. His cities are nicely in a corner and can add lots of weight against the last two AIs.
 
Wow, what a game!

This was a rough ride.
Summary:
-Had a few naval landings near York.
-Captured Argos and I was bombarding Athens defenses, when Alex gets Fuedalism :( This will be tough.
-Hadrementum is surrounded so getting jumbos online is so far impossible.
-Hanny just built a town just north of alex's land in our way.
-Scary stack is heading for barb city up north (4 numidian cavalry and chariot, upgraded by GG)

Here is the turnlog:

Turn 217/660 (755 AD) [19-Jan-2008 20:38:34]
Nottingham begins: Longbowman (5 turns)
Chariot promoted: Medic II
While defending in the wild at Hadrumetum, Spearman loses to: Carthaginian Numidian Cavalry (1.85/5) (Prob Victory: 53.4%)
While defending in Greek territory near Corinth, Archer loses to: Greek Catapult (0.25/5) (Prob Victory: 12.0%)

Turn 218/660 (770 AD) [19-Jan-2008 20:42:12]
While attacking in the wild at Hadrumetum, Catapult loses to: Carthaginian Hamilcar Barca (Numidian Cavalry) (2.45/5) (Prob Victory: 12.5%)
York finishes: Catapult

Turn 219/660 (785 AD) [19-Jan-2008 20:45:49]
York begins: Longbowman (6 turns)
London grows: 7
London finishes: Catapult

Turn 220/660 (800 AD) [19-Jan-2008 20:48:20]
London begins: Catapult (5 turns)
Catapult promoted: City Raider I
Catapult promoted: City Raider II
Catapult promoted: City Raider III
While attacking in Barbarian territory at Illinois, Longbowman defeats (6.00/6): Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 89.5%)
Nottingham finishes: Longbowman

Turn 221/660 (815 AD) [19-Jan-2008 20:52:08]
Nottingham begins: Longbowman (5 turns)
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison II
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison III
Longbowman promoted: Shock
While attacking in Barbarian territory at Illinois, Longbowman loses to: Barbarian Archer (0.24/3) (Prob Victory: 89.5%)
Hadrumetum's borders expand
A Farm was destroyed near York
A Cottage was destroyed near Hadrumetum

Turn 222/660 (830 AD) [19-Jan-2008 20:55:26]
While attacking in English territory at York, Axeman defeats (1.60/5): Carthaginian Swordsman (Prob Victory: 75.1%)
Spearman promoted: Combat I
Spearman promoted: Combat II
While defending in English territory at York, Axeman loses to: Carthaginian Chariot (4.00/4) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)

Turn 223/660 (845 AD) [19-Jan-2008 20:58:02]
While attacking in English territory at York, Longbowman defeats (6.00/6): Carthaginian Chariot (Prob Victory: 82.4%)
Swordsman promoted: City Raider I
Swordsman promoted: City Raider I
Swordsman promoted: City Raider II
Swordsman promoted: City Raider II
Swordsman promoted: City Raider III
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Accuracy
While attacking in Greek territory at Argos, Swordsman defeats (1.92/6): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 73.1%)
While attacking in Greek territory at Argos, Swordsman defeats (6.00/6): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 88.2%)
Hinduism has spread: Argos
Captured Argos (Alexander)
Argos begins: Barracks (75 turns)
Catapult promoted: Barrage I
Catapult promoted: Barrage II
While attacking in Greek territory near Corinth, Catapult loses to: Greek War Elephant (6.80/8) (Prob Victory: 3.2%)
London finishes: Catapult
While defending in the wild near Hadrumetum, Axeman loses to: Greek War Elephant (6.80/8) (Prob Victory: 9.9%)
While defending in English territory at Mycenae, Longbowman defeats (5.10/6): Greek Catapult (Prob Victory: 98.5%)
A Camp was destroyed near Hadrumetum

Turn 224/660 (860 AD) [19-Jan-2008 21:03:09]
London begins: Catapult (4 turns)
While attacking in English territory at Mycenae, Longbowman defeats (4.32/6): Greek Archer (Prob Victory: 98.9%)
A Pasture was built near Hadrumetum
York finishes: Longbowman
A Mine was destroyed near Utica

Turn 225/660 (875 AD) [19-Jan-2008 21:06:32]
York begins: War Elephant (9 turns)
Catapult promoted: Combat I
Catapult promoted: Combat II
While attacking in the wild near Mycenae, Catapult loses to: Greek War Elephant (6.72/8) (Prob Victory: 10.7%)
Nottingham finishes: Longbowman
A Camp was destroyed near Hadrumetum

Turn 226/660 (890 AD) [19-Jan-2008 21:10:58]
Nottingham begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison II
Longbowman promoted: City Garrison III
York begins: Spearman (6 turns)
Mycenae's borders expand
Hadrumetum finishes: Barracks
While defending in Greek territory at Argos, Catapult defeats (1.00/5): Greek Catapult (Prob Victory: 31.9%)
While defending in English territory near Mycenae, Axeman defeats (0.50/5): Greek War Elephant (Prob Victory: 48.5%)
While defending in English territory near Mycenae, Axeman loses to: Greek Catapult (5.00/5) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
While defending in the wild near Corinth, Catapult loses to: Greek War Elephant (8.00/8) (Prob Victory: 0.0%)
Civics Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) from 'Vassalage' to 'Bureaucracy'

Turn 227/660 (905 AD) [19-Jan-2008 21:14:22]
Hadrumetum begins: Spearman (7 turns)
While attacking in English territory at Mycenae, Longbowman defeats (0.24/6): Greek Catapult (Prob Victory: 93.0%)
While attacking in Greek territory near Argos, Spearman defeats (1.72/4): Greek War Elephant (Prob Victory: 67.1%)
While attacking in Greek territory near Argos, Swordsman defeats (0.60/6): Greek Catapult (Prob Victory: 73.0%)
London finishes: Catapult
Civics Change: Hannibal(Carthage) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 228/660 (920 AD) [19-Jan-2008 21:17:34]
London begins: Catapult (4 turns)
Longbowman promoted: Formation
A Camp was destroyed near Hadrumetum

Turn 229/660 (935 AD) [19-Jan-2008 21:20:43]
Swordsman promoted: Combat I
Archer promoted: Cover
While attacking in English territory at Nottingham, Longbowman defeats (4.44/6): Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
Spearman promoted: Formation
Nottingham finishes: Catapult
Hadrumetum finishes: Spearman
A Hamlet was built near Hadrumetum
While defending in Greek territory near Argos, Swordsman loses to: Greek Catapult (2.70/5) (Prob Victory: 79.7%)

Turn 230/660 (950 AD) [19-Jan-2008 21:22:32]
Nottingham begins: Spearman (5 turns)
Hadrumetum begins: Spearman (8 turns)
Hadrumetum begins: Longbowman (11 turns)
Spearman promoted: Combat I
Spearman promoted: Shock
While attacking in Greek territory near Argos, Swordsman defeats (4.08/6): Greek Catapult (Prob Victory: 99.2%)
London finishes: Catapult
York finishes: Spearman
Mycenae finishes: Barracks
A Pasture was destroyed near Hadrumetum
A Cottage was built near Hadrumetum
A Cottage was built near Hadrumetum
Civics Change: Alexander(Greece) from 'Barbarism' to 'Vassalage'

Turn 231/660 (965 AD) [19-Jan-2008 21:29:35]
London begins: Catapult (4 turns)
York begins: Spearman (4 turns)
Mycenae begins: Longbowman (25 turns)

THE SAVE

Roster
- Remconius (still shaking...)
- chopster (UP)
- stuge (on deck)
- cabert
- patagonia
- pigswill (skip possibly?)
- Cam_H

Good luck chopster!

42293663.jpg
 
Ok, my Warlords disc isn't where I thought it was, so I haven't looked at the save yet, nor is this an official "got it".

I will endeavour to find it this evening and have a good look, with a view to some discussion tomorrow and playing a turnset tomorrow evening.

If this isn't soon enough for everyone, then I'm happy to have someone slide in before me.
 
Just had a look at the save.

Good work keeping us alive and making some progress against Alex, but things aren't looking promising overall. Now that all of the AIs have feudalism, we've lost our military edge. Going on the attack (which we must do if we're to win this) is going to get increasingly expensive in terms of units lost, but it's the only way to recover.

On a micro level, London needs to swap the cottage for a farm to avoid starving down a size (unless that's the intention) and I'd use the axe in Hadrumetum to kill the wounded Carthaginian longbow outside the city. It's a 94.9% battle and there's road on the tile to return to the safety of the city afterwards. That city being on a hill is indespensible, but we could really use another longbow there if we can spare one. Personally I'd move in the Guerilla 2 one from the gap NW of Kerkouane; Holding Hadrumetum is key as it'll act as a magnet for every Carthaginian attack; possibly the Malinese ones too since it shares a border with Mansa.

For now, the most worrying thing is the prospect of Malinese maces since we're a fair way off having a counter to them in open ground. An AI with CS and Feudalism won't be a million miles from Guilds either, which leaves me slightly pessimistic about our long-term prospects. Sorry for sounding so downbeat - it's been educational so far.
 
I was worried from the beginning because I have lost all the AW games I've played so far.
So I'm not really surprised.

However, I think we need to build stack of the following consistency :
- 1 anti melee = axe or better, a CB, but that's not just yet going to happen
- 1 anti mounted = spear or elephant (or better, a pike, but that's not going to happen yet)
- 2 LBs (promotions? depends on what you expect to face, I would leave them unpromoted until they see the enemy)
- 6 or more catapults.
It's pointless now to attack with less than those numbers IMHO.
 
OK, GOT IT.

Initial thoughts - avoid starvation of London and kill the LB as suggested by patagonia.

The LB near Kerkouane will take 4 turns to move to Hadrumentum, while we'll have chopped one there in 2 turns. Should we still open the gap?

My plans for this turn set will be to build some more military and see what can be achieved. What are people's thoughts on CR3 cats vs CR3 swords being built in London? I'm assuming at this point that Athens is our next target - although I doubt that I'll get to that in this set but it would be nice.

Athens currently has 1 Phalanx (C1), 1 Longbow (CG1), 1 Archer (CG1) and 2 cats as garrison. What sort of stack do you think would be required to capture and hold it? This is where I'm worst at war I feel and often bring too little to the party. Would 4 cats, 5 swords and 2 LBs get it done? It's on a hill. Anyway, I'll probably not get that far.

I guess I'm looking for what people think our military makeup ratio should be looking like - cats:swords:LBs:spears - and which of these should be built in London for the XPs.

London currently produces 17 base HPT, with 7 in reserve at the moment. In my 10 turns it will therefore have 177 hammers at its disposal, which is 2 cats/swords and most of a third. This could be used for a spear if required.

York will produce 130 plus 9 in the jar which is 1 cat/sword, the spear it's currently building, and 19 hammers remaining.

Nottingham produces 15 HPT and has 23/52 in a spear already. after this is done there will be 121 hammers available which is 2 cats/swords.

The production of our other cities are pretty much irrelevant to the current situation for this set. So I can build 5 cats/swords (2 in London with the extra XP) and 2 spears (with the option of a third if required) in my 10 turns. This plus the 1 LB in Hadrumentum and most of another one - plus chops.

Ok, enough thinking out loud. Discuss.
 
Perhaps we should switch to slavery to have more flexibility in production. It would put the extra pop in London to good use. Also Hadremetum could benefit.

Athens does make a good target with poor defenses and the pyramids... As it has only 5 units, possible 6 or 7 when the assault commences. I suggest 3-4 cats to sacrifice and at least 6 units to mop up.

I think patagonia is right when he says Hadremetum acts like a magnet. If we can keep it an fortify it ( so we can get jumbos online) it will be very useful.
 
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