SGOTM 06 - Trash Team

[chopster]

My turnset is likely to include finishing the archer builds, the worker, and probably most of the settler - I might even get the settler out, depending on the chops. I'm unlikely to get the gold/rice city founded, but we'll see. I might be able to play in my lunch break, I've brought my Civ disks to work so we'll see how that pans out!

While I like the cow/fish "yellow" city, it really requires IW to be any good, and this is a detour from the Feudalism slingshot we had planned.

We need mysticism for virtually all our plans, so then is the order Writing Mysticism, or Mysticism first? Obviously being AW, open borders aren't an issue, and I can't see us building any libraries in the immediate future, so I guess the order is less important that it otherwise might be.

Regarding the workboat for exploration - remconius postulated that most of our met rivals were coastal - is a workboat likely to survive for long attempting to explore the coastline of our starting continent?

 

[cabert]

Regarding the workboat for exploration - remconius postulated that most of our met rivals were coastal - is a workboat likely to survive for long attempting to explore the coastline of our starting continent?

yep
a galley isn't one of the priority builds for the AIs
Most won't even have sailing .

 

[chopster]

It's the knowledge of these kinds of things that will definitely improve my game. I imagine the workboat will be built by the sweat from your brow however cabert.

 

[patagonia]

While I like the cow/fish "yellow" city, it really requires IW to be any good, and this is a detour from the Feudalism slingshot we had planned.

We need mysticism for virtually all our plans, so then is the order Writing Mysticism, or Mysticism first?

We don't need mysticism for either of our first two cities, but will for the third as other possible sites will generally need a border pop to gain access to their best tiles.

Mysticism before writing is worthwhile if we're going to build stonehenge for free culture and happy everywhere, but aside from that it doesn't much matter.

If I was going to beeline Feudalism in an offline game, I'd leave detouring to an expensive tech like IW until both priesthood and writing were researched, so that I could accurately judge whether I'd get monarchy done in time, but I tend to play on higher levels where you need to get everything done that bit faster. I'd favour completing the beeline ASAP though, because the sooner it's done, the sooner we can attack, attack, ATTACK! We can tech iron while building our longbow SOD.

NB - in case I forget to mention it later, guerilla 2 longbows make uber mine pillagers, great for denying an AI metals and stifling their cities. Once you've reduced them to building nothing but archers, they're toast. Taking some prebuilt vanilla archers to war is also a good idea as they're on-hand to be instantly upgraded with booty money and/or can garrison acquisitions without depleting the main longbow stack.

 

[chopster]

I'd leave detouring to an expensive tech like IW until both priesthood and writing were researched, so that I could accurately judge whether I'd get monarchy done in time, but I tend to play on higher levels where you need to get everything done that bit faster. I'd favour completing the beeline ASAP though, because the sooner it's done, the sooner we can attack, attack, ATTACK! We can tech iron while building our longbow SOD.

I agree 100% that IW is an expensive detour before the sling is complete.

I'm all installed and patched up at work, so I'll play within the next few hours.

 

[chopster]

OK, so I've played.

Key points:
Research: Bronze Working - Animal Husbandry - Writing - Mysticism - Polytheism (7 turns)
Builds: Archer - Archer - Worker - Settler (2 turns when chop comes in)
Improvements: Gold mine - Cow Pasture - Copper Mine

Brief turn log:
Turn 40, 2800 BC: Buddhism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 43, 2710 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 49, 2530 BC: You have trained a Archer in London. Work has now begun on a Archer.
Turn 51, 2470 BC: You have discovered Animal Husbandry!
Turn 51, 2470 BC: You have trained a Archer in London. Work has now begun on a Worker.
Turn 62, 2140 BC: You have discovered Writing!
Turn 62, 2140 BC: You have trained a Worker in London. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 67, 1990 BC: You have discovered Mysticism!
Turn 68, 1960 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 69, 1930 BC: Mansa Musa converts to Hinduism!

Save File : UPLOADED HERE

Lay of the land at 1900 BC:

London at 1900 BC:

Note: Once we complete the settler, we'll probably want to reshuffle the worked tiles, to allow growth faster than it will currently.

Thought: with our high happy cap, do we want to detour to pottery so we can grow our cities more quickly?

Full turn log:

Spoiler :

Research begun: Animal Husbandry (5 Turns)
Research begun: Bronze Working (5 Turns)
Buddhism founded in a distant land
Tech learned: Bronze Working
While defending in the wild near London, Warrior defeats (1.72/2): Barbarian Panther (Prob Victory: 99.2%)
Research begun: Animal Husbandry (11 Turns)


IBT:

Turn 45/660 (2650 BC) [17-Dec-2007 19:57:01]
A Mine was built near London


New Log Entries
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Turn 45/660 (2650 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:02:47]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Hannibal(Carthage), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 46/660 (2620 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:04:37]

IBT:

Turn 47/660 (2590 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:05:35]

IBT:

Turn 48/660 (2560 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:06:12]

IBT:

Turn 49/660 (2530 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:06:26]
London finishes: Archer

IBT:

Turn 50/660 (2500 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:06:48]
London begins: Archer (10 turns)
London grows: 3

IBT:

Turn 51/660 (2470 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:07:08]
London begins: Worker (13 turns)
Tech learned: Animal Husbandry
London finishes: Archer

IBT:

Turn 52/660 (2440 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:09:06]
Research begun: Writing (11 Turns)

IBT:

Turn 53/660 (2410 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:13:38]

IBT:

Turn 54/660 (2380 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:14:22]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Hannibal(Carthage), from 'Friendly' to 'Pleased'

Turn 55/660 (2350 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:14:46]

IBT:

Turn 56/660 (2320 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:15:09]

IBT:

Turn 57/660 (2290 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:15:31]
A Pasture was built near London

IBT:

Turn 58/660 (2260 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:16:10]

IBT:

Turn 59/660 (2230 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:16:24]

IBT:
Attitude Change: Hannibal(Carthage) towards Alexander(Greece), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Alexander(Greece) towards Hannibal(Carthage), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 60/660 (2200 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:16:38]

IBT:

Turn 61/660 (2170 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:21:23]

IBT:

Turn 62/660 (2140 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:21:30]
Tech learned: Writing
London finishes: Worker

IBT:

Turn 63/660 (2110 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:21:40]
Research begun: Mysticism (5 Turns)
London begins: Settler (15 turns)
Research begun: Mysticism (5 Turns)
Research begun: Meditation (5 Turns)
Research begun: Priesthood (5 Turns)
Research begun: Mysticism (5 Turns)

IBT:

Turn 64/660 (2080 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:25:17]

IBT:

Turn 65/660 (2050 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:25:35]
A Mine was built near London

IBT:

Turn 66/660 (2020 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:26:22]

IBT:

Turn 67/660 (1990 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:26:48]
Tech learned: Mysticism

IBT:

Turn 68/660 (1960 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:27:17]
Research begun: Polytheism (9 Turns)

IBT:
Hinduism founded in a distant land

Turn 69/660 (1930 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:27:45]

IBT:
State Religion Change: Mansa Musa(Mali) from 'no State Religion' to 'Hinduism'

Turn 70/660 (1900 BC) [18-Dec-2007 11:28:01]

 

[chopster]

Some things to note:

We'll have excess hammers from the chop(s) available in a few turns, so we can pump a couple of more archers quite quickly after the settler completes.

The forested hill discussed for "stone city" will also include horses (plains) in its base square, so it might be a valuable city to settle in the not too distant future irrespective of our intentions for the stone. The other horse location is in thick jungle and quite unappealing.

Now for the humble pie part - does anyone have any criticisms of my turnset? Be as brutal as you like, but explain why you would have done something differently, and I'll try to explain why I did it the way I did.

 

[patagonia]

Now for the humble pie part - does anyone have any criticisms of my turnset? Be as brutal as you like, but explain why you would have done something differently, and I'll try to explain why I did it the way I did.

It looks like things are going well - these are very minor quibbles (you did ask!) and down to personal playing style as much as anything else...

I'll take a proper look at the save tomorrow, but at a cursory glance at the last screenshots, I'd have placed the archer on the cows 2N1E on the grassland hill to fogbust the backyard a bit and get early warning of enemy approach from the NE; and placed the one in the capital on the forested plains hill between the jungled rice and bananas for added security from the SW. The warrior on the gold could then be pushed south/west into the jungle too.

We need to stick the wheel into the tech list (preferably now - we can come back to poly afterwards) so that we can connect our cities (+2 commerce!) and get cows and rice hooked up to enable London to grow closer to its happy cap.

==========

6 archers and 1 axe will secure our borders nicely (archers to go on hills and the axe in the forest to the south (where he can accumulate woodsman promotions); we've already got 2 of those archers, which is a good start.

Based on our current tech rate, it'll take 53 turns to get the wheel, poly, priesthood and monarchy done; the oracle will take about 14 turns in London once it's grown into its next 2 mines (size 6; the current happy cap is size 7), so the emphasis should be on rapid growth and troop production there in the meantime I think (I'd sacrifice the copper for the farmed bananas once the settler is in) - we've got 36 turns or so to play with in terms of production once the settler is finished.

Can someone more familiar with Epic speed tell me roughly what game date 53 turns will take us to?

 

[chopster]

I'll take a proper look at the save tomorrow, but at a cursory glance at the last screenshots, I'd have placed the archer on the cows 2N1E on the grassland hill to fogbust the backyard a bit and get early warning of enemy approach from the NE; and placed the one in the capital on the forested plains hill between the jungled rice and bananas for added security from the SW. The warrior on the gold could then be pushed south/west into the jungle too.

The resources are where the units are, as both Alex and Hannibal had scouts wandering - I'd hate to have handed the game over with pillaged improvements! I don't know how likely this is, as I'm relatively new to AW.

We need to stick the wheel into the tech list (preferably now - we can come back to poly afterwards) so that we can connect our cities (+2 commerce!) and get cows and rice hooked up to enable London to grow closer to its happy cap.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

6 archers and 1 axe will secure our borders nicely (archers to go on hills and the axe in the forest to the south (where he can accumulate woodsman promotions); we've already got 2 of those archers, which is a good start.

We'll have another two of those Archers in about 5-6 turns once the chops come in - also, after growth we'll be running 11 HPT at size 4 so they'll come pretty quickly when we want them.

so the emphasis should be on rapid growth and troop production there in the meantime I think (I'd sacrifice the copper for the farmed bananas once the settler is in)

My thoughts exactly. It won't even be too many turns before we're working the copper again.

I'm really enjoying this!

 

[cabert]

^^scouts cannot pillage!

 

[patagonia]

^^scouts cannot pillage!

They're also cheap XP for our units if they stray close enough.

 

[cabert]

They're also cheap XP for our units if they stray close enough.

that's the easiest kill you could think off.

with horses in the fat cross, I think stone city is in order pretty soon, no?

That city would need an obelisk to be any good.

 

[remconius]

chopster. Good to see you take things seriously.

So far it is looking rather good. The capital is turning into a powerhouse. Our lands are defendable. and we have some nice cities left to build. With the Oracle slingshot we'll overpower the continent with ease.

What this game comes down to is how can we achieve victory?
For conquest we need to be able to reach the whole world.
For domination we need to acquire 778 tiles. Curious to know how big our island is, we are playing Bis and Small. Could be enough... But I reckon we are on the small island.

 

[stuge]

Looking good indeed.

I think we should take a shot at Stonehenge, if it's still available after London pumps out some military and a second worker.

I think we should found the cyan city before building the Oracle and then found the stone city as a nice forward base when we get longbows. It'd serve as a good rally point and we could chop barracks and longbows there. Also a monument, if we don't get 'Henge.

Cyan city should just focus on running two scientists ASAP.

 

[pigswill]

My computer is still misbehaving and back in the computer-garage. I'm hoping it will be fixed before the Christmas closedown.
This means that I can't download a save atm to look at the map. Before getting too bogged down in tech paths and dotmaps I think we need to be deciding on victory condition.
For a quick win we'll be looking at either domination or conquest. If we know the victory we're going for we can then plan the strategy towards acheiving it as quickly as possible.
A fundamental question is how big is our continent. Another fundamental question is whether we can reach all our opponents by galley. The sooner we know the answers to these questions the better.
In the immediate future I think that we should settle a coastal city asap and get it building/chopping/whipping a workboat as its first build to start on exploration. The later we leave it the more likely it is to encounter a galley. Until it meets a galley or trireme a WB is essentially invulnerable.

Edit: Its worth considering that seafood resources are vulnerable to pillaging. I've only played a couple of AW SGs but in both of those nets just didn't survive long term.

 

[chopster]

^^scouts cannot pillage!

OK, now I feel really silly, but learnin is good!

They're also cheap XP for our units if they stray close enough.

Unfortunately not

with horses in the fat cross, I think stone city is in order pretty soon, no?

That city would need an obelisk to be any good.

Agreed, it feel should be in our earlyish plans, due to its proximity to MM's borders.

I think we should found the cyan city before building the Oracle and then found the stone city as a nice forward base when we get longbows. It'd serve as a good rally point and we could chop barracks and longbows there. Also a monument, if we don't get 'Henge.

Cyan city should just focus on running two scientists ASAP.

Unfortunately as mentioned below, cyan city needs to work the fish (dangerous to pillaging, need trireme(s) to protect) or the cows (needs sailing - galley) to have the food surplus for two scientists. This puts it a little further down the list IMO.

My computer is still misbehaving and back in the computer-garage. I'm hoping it will be fixed before the Christmas closedown.
This means that I can't download a save atm to look at the map.

Bugger, hope it's all better soon.

Before getting too bogged down in tech paths and dotmaps I think we need to be deciding on victory condition.
For a quick win we'll be looking at either domination or conquest. If we know the victory we're going for we can then plan the strategy towards acheiving it as quickly as possible.
A fundamental question is how big is our continent. Another fundamental question is whether we can reach all our opponents by galley. The sooner we know the answers to these questions the better.
In the immediate future I think that we should settle a coastal city asap and get it building/chopping/whipping a workboat as its first build to start on exploration. The later we leave it the more likely it is to encounter a galley. Until it meets a galley or trireme a WB is essentially invulnerable.

It's looking like we're pretty much all agreed on the first build for the gold/rice city should be that exploratory workboat.

Edit: Its worth considering that seafood resources are vulnerable to pillaging. I've only played a couple of AW SGs but in both of those nets just didn't survive long term.

Great point - it really limits the timing of that cyan city as mentioned above.

So, it seems like London goes Settler (2 turns) Archer, Archer,?,?,?
And "Red City" goes workboat,workboat?,?,?,?

Are 2 WBs worth considering, sent in opposite directions? Borders can't stop us with AW, and if one survives it can eventually eat the fish for cyan city.

 

[cabert]

About net pillaging, I just tried G-major 19 (AW monarch, you have to go for space. I failed badly 3 times already) and indeed had to defend those nets with all force.
However, if we're far enough away from the rest of the world, nets are safer than land improvements.
Why? because you just put any boat (except workboats ) on a net, and it calms the AIs for a long time. The AIs on the same continent come with land troops.
That's why we really need to know if some remote AIs could come through galleys/triremes or not.

Just one question : why polytheism and not meditation?

 

[patagonia]

Just one question : why polytheism and not meditation?

If we want to use GS to bulb up the optics > astronomy line, then we need to avoid meditation (opens up philosophy), CS and theology (open up paper > education) to do so.

The intel from our work boats will hopefully tell us if astronomy is going to be needed or not. I very much doubt our current landmass will give us enough for a domination win though.

 

[cabert]

I'm seeking direction for my turnset.

here is my own suggestion, open for discussion.
- tech poly>priest>monarchy
- settler 1 for red city in london, then archer, then oracle
- red city goes workboat (chop?), archer, settler 2 for stone city.

edit : not for my turnset, but for later, we need to go caste system so we need CoL pretty soon. I would like a religion too, for later theocracy.

 

[remconius]

Not sure about monarchy after priesthood.

I would prefer to see IW first.