SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[Yamps]

I've just seen this on the signup thread:

I would like to join this if its not too late. People I used to play with are not around here anymore, so whatever group will have me, if any, is OK.

so,

1.Which level (noble, monarch, etc.) are you comfortable playing in a solo game?
2.Have you played any Civ4 GOTM games before?
3.Have you played any succession games or SGOTM before?
4.Do you have a group of players you want to play with?

Immortal
Yes
Yes
No

Thx

I suggest we invite him to join! We could use an experienced SGOTM immortal player!

I'll send him a PM to join us before somebody else does it, if I'm not already too late.
We should take a vote about this, but by the time we do it it will be to late.
If you don't agree with this, please say.

 

[marconos]

Doesn't matter to me .. I just want the game to start!!!

At this point I'm very curious to see what our opening strategy is going to be.

 

[Melior Traiano]

I've just seen this on the signup thread:



I suggest we invite him to join! We could use an experienced SGOTM immortal player!

I'll send him a PM to join us before somebody else does it, if I'm not already too late.
We should take a vote about this, but by the time we do it it will be to late.
If you don't agree with this, please say.

I'm Melior Traiano and I approve this message. We should offer him the team captaincy too.

 

[AlanH]

I have added acidsatyr to your team roster.

 

[vra379971]

Hmm. I would argue that we need Stonehenge. It doesn't put us out and isn't a luxury.

We have to get Myst anyway to head towards Lit, the GPP points and culture are vital in this game, and with a quarry and roads, we're looking at 6 turns to build it. Quite a handsome reward.

 

[acidsatyr]

Hello everyone, just checking in, I guess I'll be stuck with you guys then


I am not overly experienced OCC player but I managed deity wins before.
Just a few things i would like to comment on before we begin.

I avoid early great wonders. I know we are industrious and have both stone and marble, and it looks very delicious...but our main objective this early should be surviving barbs and early wars. For that we will need to beeline for archery, barracks, and get few archers out asap.

Two best early wonders, Pyramids and GL. GL is a must and that’s what we'll shoot for. Every other wonder this early is pretty much useless. As for Pyramids, I doubt it.

We want to keep most of that forest, especially on hills; This is a game without cottages of course, even though we are financial, the most useless trait here;

Going for drama and Globe Theater is priority for unlimited happiness and massive whipping if needed.

I never played with Chinese leaders, but UU won't be put to much use, if any, judging from its position in tech tree.

Basically it will all come down to forming PA with another civ and managing relations, finally trying to get them to win space race or domination. Offensive wars will begin only at the end of the game, most of the time, and so most of the tricks formed playing lower levels just won't work here, AI's research progress is unreal on deity.
These are just some things I picked up in my games which were more or less constant. I will admit however that i never played with 17 civs lol, that should help us a ton since it will slow them down a lot. On the other hand I don’t see plenty food around us, which is what matters most here.

Eh that was long. Once again hello to everyone in here, I'm looking forward to playing with you guys.

 

[vra379971]

With 18 Civs on Tiny, there will be NO barbs.

Correct on the food issue, that's a problem throughout.

AI research progress or troop levels aren't that bad. They are each owners of mabye one or two cities, three tops, which hurts them horribly, which means most national wonder boosts are out of the window for them. I outteched several by the industrial age. (Some by 6 techs plus)

Wars will be a slight problem, it's all going to come down to our neighbours really, dictating how much of an issue that will be.

While I don't mind missing Parth, we do need and should be able to get both Pyramids and Stonehenge. We need both for the culture wars we'll be fighting all game, and for the GPP as well.

Over the course of the test game, it took me until the modern age to get to 12 citizens. But wow, it's amazing what 6 settled GP's can do.

 

[acidsatyr]

Like i said playing with some many civs around will change the normal occ deity game.
You are right about barbs, that was actualy a quick typo on my side.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Welcome to the team, Acid. I like our chances of winning one of those laurel wreaths a lot better now.

 

[kcd_swede]

Welcome acidsatyr!

From what I read in strategy articles, I would agree with you that early defenses will be important, even w/o any real barb threat. The AI are quickly going to be looking for more land... and if you want peace, prepare for war.

SH doesn't seem worth much with only one city. A single specialist does more for us, I think.

I assume fishing>wb's are a luxury we can't afford, right?

 

[Yamps]

Welcome to the team acidsatyr!

I've made two test games, you are welcomed to try them.
We are having different results in our testings.

From my experience, it doesn't feel so horrid.
I usually take the Pyramids and don't get declared early on. Taking Stonehenge was great in one game, but a reason for an early AI attack in another game due to culture pressure. I also missed the Pyramids in that game.

Well, this will be an interesting game!

 

[acidsatyr]

Yesterday I played a few games trying to simulate position we will be playing here.
Situation here is different from my usual games in that it’s going to be really crowded, up to the point where culture will be a problem, and where Stonehenge is almost a must!
Not only that I just read it will be a tiny map!!

Culture pressure will be here anyway, we might as well put up a fight!
So, Stonehenge and GL seem to be two wonders we should get, imo.
It is really hard to get Pyramids here as well, and they won't make a big difference research wise, for a couple of reasons. First even if we get a few extra beakers from representation, the advantage is so small that it doesn’t justify possible loosing of GL. Every AI will be teching for about the same pace up to AD years. Second, drama and GT is right next to literature so happiness is not an issue in this game as well. Third, we should let other civ waste its hammers on something as big as pyramids. And finally, getting pyramids deviates from what I think is optimal play:

I propose something like this (just an opinion here).

1. Start building barracks and start researching mysticism at the same time.
2. Our warrior won't be doing a lot of exploring before writing, so he will go back into our capital.
3. Once mysticism is done, start Stonehenge until finished. I managed to get it almost always around 2700-2800BC in test games. Settled great Prophet will help us a ton later.
4. After mysticism is done, hunting->archery->fishing.
5. After Stonehenge, finish barracks and build at least 3 archers and a scout. This should be enough and we can’t afford to lower science slider just yet.
6. After that fishing boats are in order, while we research writing->alphabet, build library, and hopefully assign scientists. We open borders with most of the people and scout as much as we can.

As you can see there is no place for pyramids in this course of action, but I think this is probably best we can do. A lot of depends who our neighbors are, i.e. we might just continue queuing archers if we get attacked early which is quite possible on this crowded map.

Also note we don’t have a worker at all since we don’t need him. Forest on hills and sea food is doing the entire job, and pillaging won’t be a problem.

Feel free to correct if I missed anything.

I have a question because i'm lazy to look it up. I know there are few leaders it is imposible to make PA with, i think Alex, Monty, and Napoleon, I'mi right?

When does the game starts by the way?

 

[kcd_swede]

Game begins April 24! Or at least thats when we can begin.

Oh yeah... about scouting, one other thing... we are playing continents, not pangea. We won't be able to trade with all the AI until Astro. Just something to think about.

 

[classical_hero]

Why do you think that it is not good for us to connect to the stone and marble? I would have thought that it would have been better to have those and get extra production bonuses.

 

[acidsatyr]

Why do you think that it is not good for us to connect to the stone and marble? I would have thought that it would have been better to have those and get extra production bonuses.

1. Stone, we don't need untill much later! (Stonehenge will be done without it).
2. Marble, we only need for GL, so we will connect it before we start GL.

Masonry we will get from trading away Alphabet, so we don't need it before that.
Also we would need worker for that, and all of this will get pillaged as soon as someone declares on us. So i don't think it's worth it that ealry.

Oh yeah... about scouting, one other thing... we are playing continents, not pangea. We won't be able to trade with all the AI until Astro. Just something to think about.

Which means less heat for us, but it also means we need to find a friend on our continent, since starting friendship with someone untill astro is too late. We are also powerless to influence what's happening on the other side of the world.

A lot of times, the civs who get upper hand here are civs who concentrate more on military rather then research. Those civs get bigger over time and grow into monsters (the one leader who almost always gets in my mind here is Julius C). We WANT them to like us, so a lot of times we will need to accept their requests and declare on other civs, meaning we will sit with archers in our city and defend. Making all improvements in fat cross rather useless.

 

[vra379971]

Yeah...I'm going to humbly disagree with you here acid....but I'm going to have to do it when I get back

 

[acidsatyr]

hehe feel free to do so

Discussion is always good

edit:

A lot will depend on who our neighbours are. In every game with monty and alex near they attacked incredibly early.

 

[marconos]

In the test runs that I have done ... any early improvements I made were quickly destroyed by invading armies. Early improvements are a waste, health was a huge issue so we really need to leave those forests.

Culture was a huge problem though. So I believe we do need at least 1 early wonder to help hold our cultural borders.

 

[acidsatyr]

I just played that posted save file and it was quite ridiculous, I'm not sure why!

First of, i tried something entirely different. I started with worker, while researching mysticism->masonry->wheel.

As soon as worker was done I went Stonehenge (done in 2920bc)

, Pyramids (done in 2240bc),

and failed Parthenon in 1840bc (IMPOSSIBLE to get all 3 I tried 100 different starts).

After wheel I went BW->polytheism->fishing->hunting->archery->priesthood->writing->alphabet.

I played start a few times and several different outcomes happened. Almost always Incas declared on Monty. One time they declared on me. I was toasted without archers since they had bronze, and me, ..warriors.
I don't know what triggers different outcomes, but I know that delaying archers is not a brilliant idea.
In my last similar game I got to communism around 1550-1600ad(?) and eventually won, but I never built anything except Stonehenge and GL (from ealry wonders).
Connecting that stone might not be a bad idea after all but it really comes down to who our first neighbors will be! I'm sure we'll not follow the same strategy if we get Alex instead of Elizabeth knocking on our doors.

sorry for large pics i forgot to size them down >_<

 

[Yamps]

I just played that posted save file and it was quite ridiculous, I'm not sure why!

I played start a few times and several different outcomes happened. Almost always Incas declared on Monty. One time they declared on me. I was toasted without archers since they had bronze, and me, ..warriors.
I don't know what triggers different outcomes, but I know that delaying archers is not a brilliant idea.
In my last similar game I got to communism around 1550-1600ad(?) and eventually won, but I never built anything except Stonehenge and GL (from ealry wonders).
Connecting that stone might not be a bad idea after all but it really comes down to who our first neighbors will be! I'm sure we'll not follow the same strategy if we get Alex instead of Elizabeth knocking on our doors.

Hope you enjoyed the save! Try the other one, it is quite different. Btw, can someone else post a test game, please? I'm tired of playing my own maps.

There isn't really a certain way to tell if a war will happen. I remember reading about it, it goes something like this:

For every turn:
1) Would we profit from the war? (uses random numbers in assessment)
2) What are the diplomatic repercussions? (uses random numbers in assessment)