SGOTM 07 - Unusual Suspects

[Yamps]

Roster

Vra379971 - on deck!
Classical_hero -
Kcd_swede -
Marconos -
Yamps - just played!
Melior Traiano - UP!


We are strong, but proper planning is needed as usual. We have to protect all those cities around Cuzco, Capac can strike some cities directly on the turn we declare war. The attacking stack will probably have ~15 units, SAMs and artillery.

Hu/Ku are stronger than Liz, geography makes things problematic. We don't have an option to hit Cuzco directly like we did against Kyoto. I think we should wait for AI movements like before and mop the stack from Cuzco with tanks. The problem is that we have too many targets to protect. Greek cities in particular are problematic, they will get cut off by Incan culture.

I'll look at the save tomorrow in more detail.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Looking over the game:

I think we should heal up a couple of turns first. And while that's happening, we need to redeploy some troops to defend our long border with Hu/Ku. And that will also give time for Caesar's troops to redistribute themselves, perhaps. And I think his GA is going to bomb Athens, maybe claiming some land from Huayna. Caesar has a Settler on the way to claim the Asoka's former Marble & Oil site, I think. (Notice Kublai & Huayna's Transports making their way up the east coast, too. )Breaking the land threshold shouldn't be a problem.

I would redeploy the three Infantry of Beijing's garrison to the front. Assuming Caesar bombs Athens, I'd redeploy them to York probably and shift our Infantry there over to Athens. Caesar has some troops in Delhi that I hope he'll move to Bombay once war is declared. I would move some of our Artillery into Bombay as well so that they will only need three turns to reach Cuzco, instead of four.

I too think we should let Huayna show his hand first before we commit to attacking. We will have to play a reactive defense until Hu/Ku's offensive stacks are accounted for. If Caesar reclaims some land from his bomb, I would put our Tanks up north in York, so they can reinforce Athens, Washington, and Bombay as needed. In the south, I would shift two of the Tanks from Berlin to Hamburg and move the two MGs + 1 Infantry outside Berlin into Antium. The medic Infantry will go into Berlin.

Hu/Ku don't have that many Artillery between them (only 11), so it's possible we will be able to fend off whatever stacks they throw at us. But Huayna does have a lot of SAMs and whichever city gets attacked might be overwhelmed by sheer numbers. If so, we will have inflicted a lot of damage on the enemy too, and recapture shouldn't be a problem.

Whether Caesar's presumed GA bomb in Athens reclaims any land will be something we need to factor in. Perhaps it would be best to play one turn until the bomb goes off and then reassess the situation from there. For this next turn, units need to heal & units from Beijing will start marching to the front.

 

[kcd_swede]

Perhaps it would be best to play one turn until the bomb goes off and then reassess the situation from there.

Its always a good idea to pause for discussion when anything that affects strategy occurs. Good idea.

 

[Yamps]

I'll look at the details a bit later, just a few thoughts for now:

Deploying soldiers from Beijing makes sense. Of course, we need replacements for those, we can't leave the city completely undefended.

That culture bomb is relevant, playing 1 turn to see what happens is a good idea.

There won't be any recapturing if Capac razes a city! We can't afford to lose a city, things are a bit tricky.

 

[Yamps]

Fifth Element have finished. Erkon posted in their thread and Balthalion posted in Murky Waters' thread. Impressive finish!


Let's get back to our game. I've examined the save, here are some suggestions:

Looking over the game:

I think we should heal up a couple of turns first. And while that's happening, we need to redeploy some troops to defend our long border with Hu/Ku. And that will also give time for Caesar's troops to redistribute themselves, perhaps. And I think his GA is going to bomb Athens, maybe claiming some land from Huayna. Caesar has a Settler on the way to claim the Asoka's former Marble & Oil site, I think. (Notice Kublai & Huayna's Transports making their way up the east coast, too. )Breaking the land threshold shouldn't be a problem.

That's a real settler party. It does look like the GA is going to bomb Athens. I don't expect us to gain land from Capac, I'm just hopping for connection with York. Braking the land threshold won't be a problem, assuming our cities don't get razed in the war.


I've examined your deployment plans closely, I propose some modifications. First, the current troop deployment:

South:

Antium: 2 inf
Berlin: inf, marine, 9 tanks + 2inf, 2MG near Berlin
Sparta: 1 inf
Hamburg: 2 inf, 3 tanks

North:

York: 2 inf, 2 tanks
Washington: 5 inf, MG, 11 art
Bombay: 2 inf
Beijing: 3 inf, MG, tank

Total:

4 MG, 11 art, 20 inf, 1 marine, 15 tanks + 2 destroyers and 8 battleships.

Main points:

• We have 8 cities to protect: Athens, York, Washington and Bombay in the north; Sparta, Berlin, Hamburg and Antium in the south.
  
• We have enough foot soldiers to deploy 3 per each threatened city.
  
• Moving the soldiers from Beijing is necessary, I propose we move 2 inf and 1 MG. We don't have much MGs on the front, we need them against SAMs.
  
• I would put 1 MG in Berlin, Hamburg and Antium and move the one from Beijing to Washington.
  
• WHEOOHRN must be checked constantly, we don't want Cathy landing near Beijing in the middle of the war.
  
• Infantry is needed to escort artillery, but we can concentrate troops when Capac moves his stack.
  
• Sparta will get cut off by enemy culture, Athens most likely won't.
  
• Agreed that artillery should be in Bombay for the attack on Washington. We don't need all of them, 3 without promotions can be used for defensive purposes.
  
• Tanks in Berlin are mostly CR, but some have anti infantry promotions. 3 tanks in Hamburg are anti-infantry, we should produce more for York.
  
• Actually we should wait for Robotics, but we are in a hurry here.
  
• We need 200 gold per inf for the upgrades, we should sell tech for cash when we get Robotics in the middle of the war.
  

Exact deployment moves:

South:

Antium - 1MG from the forest near Berlin
Berlin - 1 MG, 1 inf medic from the forest nearby
Hamburg - 1 MG from Washington
Sparta - marine from Berlin, 1 inf from the forest near Berlin, 3 artillery from Washington

North:

Athens: 3 inf from Washington
York: 1 inf from Beijing
Washington : MG from Bejing
Bombay: 1 inf from Beijing, 8 art from Washington

This deployment would put 3 foot soldiers in every threatened city. Antium, Berlin and Hamburg are the most likely targets, MGs would go there. Tanks can stay in Berlin and Hamburg, more tanks should be produced for York.

The war won't be easy and it's risky. City razing would cause tile problems and huge delays. Of course, we could wait a few more turns for Robotics, we have to reconsider that option.

Let's first play a turn and see what's that GA up to.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Fifth Element have finished. Erkon posted in their thread and Balthalion posted in Murky Waters' thread. Impressive finish!

They've got some strong players on that team. I wonder who they PA'ed with? Maybe Saladin? Or did they win via UN? Well, congratulations to them. It's too bad we're playing for second place, but Fifth Element is definitely strong competition.

I checked Huayna's personality numbers & his RazeCityProb is 0, so even if he does capture a city, he won't raze it. With that in mind, maybe the way to take all the guesswork out of the war planning is to defend all the border cities except Bombay & use that city as a trap for Huayna's offensive stack. We already pretty much have the units in place to immediately retake the city if it falls. There's also the possibility that Caesar would defend the city himself and inflict heavy casualties on Huayna in the process. Then we would mop up Huayna's survivors & immediately move on Cuzco.

Losing & recapturing Bombay would reset the Culture counter, but if we recapture right away, it won't go into resistance a second time, I think.

Regardless of what we do, I will have our Workers build a rail link from Washington to Bombay to help with troop movement.

 

[Yamps]

Yes! The iRazeCityProb is 0 for Capac and Kublai too! I've been looking the Warlords file after system reinstall, Vanilla reference file didn't open with xls viewer for some reason. (It's not 0 in Warlords.) Anyway, I've checked the actual XML file, numbers are really 0. That's good to know.

However, can we really rely on that? Annotations from the Warlords file:

Determines the probability that a conquered city is razed - is only included in last check, other values e.g. holy city, active world wonder or number of nearby cities can override this

We don't really know how this calculation works. I'm not comfortable with trapping and intentional city losing, I would prefer defending and concentrating troops for the attack when we see Capac's stack on the move.

@Fifth Element

They've got some strong players on that team. I wonder who they PA'ed with? Maybe Saladin? Or did they win via UN? Well, congratulations to them. It's too bad we're playing for second place, but Fifth Element is definitely strong competition.

Maybe Cyrus? Cyrus was an easy target for PA due to Representation. We'll see soon. Let's do our best to beat the Chokonuts. They've finished on turn 290, we are at turn 270. Let's push this to the limit!

 

[Melior Traiano]

The fact that Bombay is a triple holy city and the holy city of Huayna's own faith and contains Versailles can't possibly lead him to raze the place.

And also, how do you keep track of people posting in other teams' threads? You don't lurk using a bogus account, do you?

 

[Yamps]

The fact that Bombay is a triple holy city and the holy city of Huayna's own faith and contains Versailles can't possibly lead him to raze the place.

That's a reasonable assumption. Of course, we can't be sure that Capac will attack Bombay. Btw, won't our artillery go there for the attack on Cuzco? Do you plan to keep them in Washington?

And also, how do you keep track of people posting in other teams' threads? You don't lurk using a bogus account, do you?

I'm sure that our mods would track down my IP address or sth in such a case. You can see who posted last, I'm checking that from time to time.

We are not getting much input from the rest of the team. People, this game won't be won on its own, you know. Anyway, we are ready to play IMO. Things are not pretty, but with some luck we'll handle Hu/Ku troubles.

Play for one turn and pause if you think it's necessary. I don't expect things to be much different after culture bombing.

 

[Melior Traiano]

It's true that Huayna might not attack Bombay if Caesar reinforces his garrison there, but that would still leave all cities in a better defensive posture to inflict losses wherever he does attack. And I will keep the Artillery stack in Washington because once the rail link with Bombay is up, those slowpokes would still get to Cuzco in three turns regardless.

I will let Caesar bomb his GA & then reassess.

 

[marconos]

I don't have anything to add. The specific details of what troops go where are up to the person playing and the situation on the ground for them.

Get the attack started and let's wrap this up

 

[vra379971]

Yes! The iRazeCityProb is 0 for Capac and Kublai too! I've been looking the Warlords file after system reinstall, Vanilla reference file didn't open with xls viewer for some reason. (It's not 0 in Warlords.) Anyway, I've checked the actual XML file, numbers are really 0. That's good to know.

However, can we really rely on that? Annotations from the Warlords file:

Haven't had much to say lately, as I've been agreeing with the plan of action I see, but will comment here. Yes.

I don't beleive any civ will raze a city in this game (except at this point mabye Cathy...)

Civs will only raze if they are compelling reasons to raze - and as this game has massively limited Civ size we need not be concerned about a raze at all, as to them, having decent land area comes first.

That said, my wars usually involve city traps where I can use CR promotions heavily, be either leaving a weak border city open to direct assult, or taking a city and then leaving it empty for it to be retaken, and destroying the new defenders. In sum, we want to finish in 19 turns, and if losing and recapturing is the fastest way, do it.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Turn 270: Move the two Infantry out of Bombay into Washington. Moved new Tank into York. Sent two Infantry + MG from Beijing on their way to Athens. Moved CG2 Infantry from Berlin to Hamburg. Moved two Pinch Infantry from Washington to York. Clean up the signage on the map. End turn.

Turn 271: Caesar offers excess Gold. Sure, I'll take that off your hands... Also, Caesar is such a slacker that Cyrus (and Saladin) beat him to the Settler spot.

Well then, I guess the Hu/Ku war might not be our last, after all. Anyway, Sparta is now surrounded by Incan culture now. Caesar had a stack right outside that city, but he decided not to beef up its garrison, which is strange because the city might flip. Caesar currently has five units in both Sparta & Bombay, so considering Huayna's cultural dominance around Sparta, that would be his target probably, unless we beef up its defense.

I think we will want to hold onto Sparta. Or at least fortify more units in there to make Huayna take maximum losses. Retaking Sparta would be more of a pain than Bombay. So maybe send the Marines, non-medic Infantry & MG from Berlin to Sparta? That should deter Huayna, or at least inflict some serious damage to his offensive stack.

 

[marconos]

Those other nations popping a settler there is actually a benefit for us -vs- a detriment. It will allow us to easily get the land we need for our domination victory.

Looking forward to see how more of your turns go.

 

[Yamps]

Caesar had a stack right outside that city, but he decided not to beef up its garrison, which is strange because the city might flip.

Strange? Not for JC, flipping chances didn't stop him before to leave his cities poorly defended!

I think we will want to hold onto Sparta. Or at least fortify more units in there to make Huayna take maximum losses. Retaking Sparta would be more of a pain than Bombay. So maybe send the Marines, non-medic Infantry & MG from Berlin to Sparta? That should deter Huayna, or at least inflict some serious damage to his offensive stack.

Agreed, Sparta has to be fortified.

Those other nations popping a settler there is actually a benefit for us -vs- a detriment. It will allow us to easily get the land we need for our domination victory.

Looking forward to see how more of your turns go.

It would've been easier if JC had taken the spot...Can't believe they arrived there from the other continent before JC! This is a delay, the city will revolt for x turns, we won't get the land instantly.


EDIT:

I've opened the save, here are some observations:

It's possible that we won't need that new city, we have 10 tiles tolerance.
Railroading Washington and Bombay would take too much time, when do you plan to attack?

Good luck, you'll need it!

 

[Melior Traiano]

Well, on with the show.

Turn 271: Moved troops as outlined.

Turn 272: As expected, Cyrus founds a city south of Asoka's former Marble. The nerve... Anyway, with our preparations in place, it was time to have a little conversation with our plumage-sporting neighbor:

Caesar's units in Inca get teleported to Sparta. Currently three Roman defenders in Bombay.

Turn 273: Huayna ignores Bombay & instead captures Hamburg. He lost 3 Artillery, a Tank & 3 SAMs. The remainder of his stack looks like this:

Order Caesar to attack Hamburg. He went & attacked Beshbalik on his own without first bombing down defenses. Moved Tanks from York toward Cuzco. Artillery/Infantry stack start marching there via Bombay. Our Battleships killed off 3 Incan Destroyers in defense. We lost a Battleship attacking a Mongol Destroyer at 80.6% odds. Moved 7 CR Tanks out of Berlin to retake Hamburg. Shifted 2 Infantry + MG from Antium to cover Berlin.

Turn 274: Caesar retakes Hamburg & takes Beshbalik. He loses a lot of units in the second battle. Meanwhile, Kublai suicided his offensive mini-stack on Antium. Huayna pulls his stack survivors back from Hamburg. Order Caesar to attack Cuzco. Order the Tank stack outside Hamburg toward Tiwanaku since we already have enough units to take Cuzco in the vicinity of the city. Killed Incan Battleship & Destroyer pair, but our own ships took heavy damage & need to heal in port.

Turn 275: Cathy builds Thruster & Three Gorges Dam. Lost another Battleship at 80.6% chasing down two Incan Destroyers. Killed two more Destroyers near Tiwanaku, but our Battleships sustain substantial damage in the process. Tank stack now outside Tiwanaku to attack next turn. Caesar is moving slowly to Cuzco.

Turn 276: Bomb down Cuzco, send in the Artillery. 3 die, the rest win. Leave city with 2 badly damaged defenders. Committed only 2 Tanks to city attack, sent 5 uncommitted Tanks south to bypass & head straight to Karakorum. Meanwhile, lost one Tank at 95.9% odds & another at 97.1% attacking Tiwanaku. Reissue orders for Caesar to take Cuzco & Tiwanaku.

Turn 277: Robotics comes in, set research to Mass Media (maybe Caesar will build some Broadcast Towers?). Whittle down Incan defenders, lost an Infantry at Cuzco. Upgraded two Infantry in Berlin to MI. Nothing else much happens. Caesar switched to Vassalage & SP, suddenly has a whole lot of gpt.

Turn 278: Caesar captures Cuzco with a Tank, but it's a whopping 9 turns of resistance to look forward to. Tanks near Cuzco race for Karakorum, along with the two MI in Berlin. Tiwanaku down to single defender. Meanwhile, new build Tanks are massing with the slowpoke stack from Cuzco to take Cyrus's city. Upgraded 4 Infantry outside Cuzco. The relief from Incan culture is allowing the border cities lots more excess food to grow.

Turn 279: Moves troops & ships to Karakorum.

Turn 280: Kill all defenders in Karakorum but one. Checking the F8 screen, looks like we're having pop issues. Send the Workers around to farm. By my count, we will own every tile but 10 on the continent once Karakorum falls. But we're at 39.38% pop ATM & Karakorum should be just enough to put us over the top.

Turn 281: Caesar takes Karakorum. But we don't win?

Damn, I forgot about that ice tile at the very southern tip of the continent. It's not covered by Roman culture. My fault, guys. I tripled checked the tile count but missed that tile each time. Well, there's but one remedy for this situation:

Lost a Tank taking Cyrus's outpost, but no matter.

Turn 282: At long last, victory!

Some overview screenies:

Our boy Caesar really went nuts with the Power & Manufacturing.

An impressive Kill/Loss ratio.

Our place in history. Not too shabby, all things considered.

And...final victory conditions. Well gents, it's been a privilege teaming with you all. I'm looking forward to SGOTM08.

Whether we place in the top three or not, it's been a lot of fun playing this game out.

 

[AlanH]

Congratulations on your finish, Unusual Suspects

You can read the other team threads now, but please don't post in any that are still playing.

 

[classical_hero]

Awesome news and just when I was going to say that i was able to play again. It was a shame that I was too busy near the latter stages to continue playing for this team.

 

[Melior Traiano]

Well, we were nowhere close to finishing in the top three. But we can at least take comfort that there's no way we will be finishing dead last either.

It'll take a while to read through the other teams' threads, but Murky Waters pulled off some masterful diplomatic manipulations with war bribes. What is possibly even more impressive is that some of the teams yet to finish might actually beat Murky Waters' finish.

 

[kcd_swede]

A damn fine job, team! Some of those other teams have near legendary players, but we adhoc Unusual Suspects made a fine showing nonetheless. Special thanks to Yamps for keeping things moving (so that I got to see the end before I start travelling). And for everyone else who made it happen, thanks a lot for a truly great learning experience. I'm a better player already because of what I've learned here. Thanks everyone!