SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[rrau]

I think I like the GLH option better because of the faster teching and speed is one of the things we need in this game if we're going for gold.

 

[Cactus Pete]

We seem to be off and running, and the intensity of our discussion has not slacked off from last game.

It's counter to my experience that a single city can research as (more?) quickly working cottages than via Great People. I suspect that most teams will build Pyramids, which is a weak argument for going GLH.

Not having tested, Mids vs. GLH seems pretty even. In test games, do wars ever cut off trading routes and thereby significantly limit the GLH's benefits (or force researching Astronomy)?

How useful is a second worker?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I'm still very tempted to go for both wonders. It seems to me that having both wonders will give us the fastest raw tech speed since we can solve early happiness problems via Pyramids and create the extra trade commerce via GLHouse.

The drawbacks have been mentioned -

1. dilute the GS gene pool,
2. slight delay in creating/working cottage tiles while we concentrate on hammers and chops (although getting Pyramids will allow us to grow very fast once we have both wonders in)
3. less city defence until after turn 57 (although our adjacent neighbours are pretty peaceful)
4. and perhaps the biggest drawback - only ~50% chance of GLHouse

If we choose a more conservative approach, I am happy with going for GLHouse only (this is what I did in my test games) - the only downside being that we must wait for Monarchy in trades before properly solving our happy issues. Fred's test with Communism in 620AD is very good (compared to mine around 1050AD), although this is the first test game that has been done since we updated the map with improved resources?

 

[ShannonCT]

It's counter to my experience that a single city can research as (more?) quickly working cottages than via Great People.

I think we could acheive a Communism date from maximizing Great Scientists similar to that from cottage spamming, but if the game last 100 more turns after that, cottages start to dominate.

Not having tested, Mids vs. GLH seems pretty even. In test games, do wars ever cut off trading routes and thereby significantly limit the GLH's benefits (or force researching Astronomy)?

We have direct access to three AI right now. As long as we're not at war with more than 1 of them, we should be able to maximize the benefit of GLH.

How useful is a second worker?

Very, I would say. If we don't build a second worker before the wonder(s), we should build one after. There's a lot to do in the first 100 turns.

I'm still very tempted to go for both wonders. It seems to me that having both wonders will give us the fastest raw tech speed since we can solve early happiness problems via Pyramids and create the extra trade commerce via GLHouse.

In my best try for both wonders, I could get GLH on turn 54 (using the 2 worker approach). Can we do better? If we could reduce that to turn 52, we would probably raise our chance of getting it to 70-80%. And if we could get it by turn 52, we should be able to build 3-4 axemen by turn 60.

We'd still have the GP dillution problem. I guess we could try to solve that by hiring 2 scientists until we got the GSs that we want.

Fred's test with Communism in 620AD is very good (compared to mine around 1050AD), although this is the first test game that has been done since we updated the map with improved resources?

I'm getting Communism dates around turn 140-145 with Mids on the new test map when I don't get an early DoW and when I get lucky with GSs.

 

[ShannonCT]

I guess I just answered my own question. We can get GLH on turn 52 by building 2 workers before Mids. Can anyone do turn 51 or better?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Unfortunately, my time for test games is usually limited to the weekends.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I did a test game building the Pyramids and got a date not far from the GLH date:

Spoiler :

Communism in 740 AD that is T147 or 6 turns slower than my GLH game. There was no war and I got one GA that I used to bulb Drama because it never became available for trade. Had I got a GS instead I could have got maybe 1000 beakers more and reduced the Communism time by 2-3 turns. After building the Globe I switched to Representation for the first time in the game. It seems like the Communism date is quite similar with both approaches. I did, however, notice that in my GLH game the final value of beakers per turn is 502 and in my Pyramids game the similar value is only 425 bpt. This is to some extent offset by the increased number of GPP but as the game goes on the GPP will be less and lless valuable because more and more GPP are required per Great Person.

Another thing I like about the GLH aproach is that we don't have to switch to Representation but can stay in Monarchy and get the diplomatic bonuses with the leaders that have this as favorite civic - we know that there will be at least 3 of them in the game and possibly up to 6. In a GLH game there is also no pressure to build the Globe and increase the likelihood of GA's.

 

[leif erikson]

I'm still very tempted to go for both wonders. It seems to me that having both wonders will give us the fastest raw tech speed since we can solve early happiness problems via Pyramids and create the extra trade commerce via GLHouse.

The drawbacks have been mentioned -

1. dilute the GS gene pool,

I have played two test games through with both wonders and I don't think it is worth it. I also have played two or three with just one wonder and they went much better. Please do not underestimate the problem of gene pool dilution. Got lots of Great People, but Artists are not very helpful and Engineers are not always useful for the track we need to take. The Scientist percentage did not rise over 60%, not good! The lack of Scientists extends the date we get to Communism and may cause us to lose Liberalism. Of course, it could just be my RNG, nasty booger.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I'm still very tempted to go for both wonders. It seems to me that having both wonders will give us the fastest raw tech speed since we can solve early happiness problems via Pyramids and create the extra trade commerce via GLHouse.

Are we sure of this? What are the early trade-offs? I could imagine that with everything focused on the two early wonders our development is slowed down. And how many forests will we have left to chop the GLib, and Oxford?

The drawbacks have been mentioned -

1. dilute the GS gene pool,
2. slight delay in creating/working cottage tiles while we concentrate on hammers and chops (although getting Pyramids will allow us to grow very fast once we have both wonders in)
3. less city defence until after turn 57 (although our adjacent neighbours are pretty peaceful)
4. and perhaps the biggest drawback - only ~50% chance of GLHouse

We could hope that the real game has a similar diplomatic environment as the first test game. I find the 2nd test game to be more difficult with more aggressive leaders that may attack even when they are pleased. Increasing power can also increase our score and having a higher score ranking than some of the aggressive leader may prevent them from DOW'ing.

If we choose a more conservative approach, I am happy with going for GLHouse only (this is what I did in my test games) - the only downside being that we must wait for Monarchy in trades before properly solving our happy issues. Fred's test with Communism in 620AD is very good (compared to mine around 1050AD), although this is the first test game that has been done since we updated the map with improved resources?

In my test game I self researched Monarchy after Literature instead of waiting for a trade opportunity that may come too late. You can't compare dates between the test games because we have a lot of extra resources in the 2nd test.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think we could acheive a Communism date from maximizing Great Scientists similar to that from cottage spamming, but if the game last 100 more turns after that, cottages start to dominate.

I agree with this. A town yields 6gpt (after PP) and with Bureaucracy this grows to 9gpt. This is 50% more than the 6 bpt you get from a scientist using Representation.

Very, I would say. If we don't build a second worker before the wonder(s), we should build one after. There's a lot to do in the first 100 turns.

I used the two worker approach in both my test games and found it very useful.

I'm getting Communism dates around turn 140-145 with Mids on the new test map when I don't get an early DoW and when I get lucky with GSs.

This is very similar to my test - with a GS instead of the GA I would have finished in T144.

 

[leif erikson]

Are we sure of this? What are the early trade-offs? I could imagine that with everything focused on the two early wonders our development is slowed down. And how many forests will we have left to chop the GLib, and Oxford?

Growth and development are a trade-off as the Worker is chopping and we are working high hammer tiles to get the wonders. With two workers, there was a lot of chopping, especially to get the wonders completed quickly. There were plenty for GLibrary. There were enough Great Engineers to rush Oxford.

We could hope that the real game has a similar diplomatic environment as the first test game. I find the 2nd test game to be more difficult with more aggressive leaders that may attack even when they are pleased. Increasing power can also increase our score and having a higher score ranking than some of the aggressive leader may prevent them from DOW'ing.

We do need to plan at least 40 turns of war into this somewhere. Getting Communism without the requisite 40 turns with someone doesn't help us much.

In my test game I self researched Monarchy after Literature instead of waiting for a trade opportunity that may come too late. You can't compare dates between the test games because we have a lot of extra resources in the 2nd test.

I think this is a good plan. I had trouble trading for it. We also need Drama to get National Epic.

 

[ShannonCT]

Are we sure of this? What are the early trade-offs? I could imagine that with everything focused on the two early wonders our development is slowed down. And how many forests will we have left to chop the GLib, and Oxford?

I'll test it tonight.

We do need to plan at least 40 turns of war into this somewhere. Getting Communism without the requisite 40 turns with someone doesn't help us much.

I'd be happy to declare war on someone during my turnset, especially since the only thing I got to fight in the last SGOTM was a lion.

We also need Drama to get National Epic.

Naw... only Literature. Hopefully we can trade for Drama before we unload our obsolete units on our PA partner.

 

[leif erikson]

I'd be happy to declare war on someone during my turnset, especially since the only thing I got to fight in the last SGOTM was a lion.

You have to get someone to join in this time. No fighting allowed unless you can tango...

Naw... only Literature. Hopefully we can trade for Drama before we unload our obsolete units on our PA partner.

Oh ya?? National Epic comes with Lit.

 

[DJMGator13]

Here's an article that explains religious spread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=237869

For Hinduism to spread to us spontaneously, we need a road or coastal connection to Asoka. Then, as long as we don't have any other religion in our city, we have some probability of Hinduism spreading to our city each turn. The closer we are to the holy city, the higher the probability of religious spread. We are pretty close to the Holy City, a lot closer than in our test games. Seems like we have a good chance of getting Hinduism before Philosophy, in which case, we can use the Taoist missionary to convert some unaligned AI and use that AI as a common enemy. If Hinduism hasn't spread by the time we are ready to bulb Philosophy, we can wait until someone else has founded Taoism and then bulb.

Another option may be that Asoka may ask us to convert. Here is a look at Asoka's traits. His religious pressure rand is 100 which is one of his higher numbers, but most of his other options for diplo contact can't occur this early in the game.

Asoka
CONTACT_TRADE_TECH 2
CONTACT_TRADE_BONUS 2
CONTACT_JOIN_WAR 20
CONTACT_OPEN_BORDERS 20
CONTACT_PEACE_TREATY 20
CONTACT_TRADE_MAP 20
CONTACT_STOP_TRADING 50
CONTACT_DEFENSIVE_PACT 80
CONTACT_PERMANENT_ALLIANCE 80
CONTACT_RELIGION_PRESSURE 100
CONTACT_GIVE_HELP 100
CONTACT_ASK_FOR_HELP 100
CONTACT_CIVIC_PRESSURE 500
CONTACT_DEMAND_TRIBUTE 1000

So, if we can get an Open Border before he ask us and there are no techs to trade plus if he is not at war with anyone, then there is a good chance that he will ask us to either stop trading with someone or hopefully to accept his religion. Although an offer of help (give or receive) has the same chance as the religion one but that is pretty early for him to offer us a free tech or extort a tech from us (would we even have a tech to extort).

 

[ShannonCT]

Another option may be that Asoka may ask us to convert. Here is a look at Asoka's traits. His religious pressure rand is 100 which is one of his higher numbers, but most of his other options for diplo contact can't occur this early in the game.

I thought that the AI could only ask you to accept their religion if that religion had already spread to your city. I'm not sure that the Religion Pressure event can cause religion to spread to your city.

I just tested getting both Mids and GLH. I got Communism on turn 142, no better than with a single wonder. This was with getting 1 GM, 1 GE, and 3 GSs. The GM and GE sat around for quite a while waiting for some big techs to bulb (Paper and Machinery). Building both wonders makes the chances of getting a GS first near zero. By the time we could build a library and hire scientists, the GPPs from the two wonders are near 100. With only 1 wonder, we can get a library earlier and give ourselves a 40-50% chance of an early GS. So, I would advise against trying for both wonders.

If the consensus is to go for GLH, maybe Leif should work out a plan for his turnset. Remember that in my testing, the earliest date the AI got GLH was turn 47.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I just tested getting both Mids and GLH. I got Communism on turn 142, no better than with a single wonder. This was with getting 1 GM, 1 GE, and 3 GSs. The GM and GE sat around for quite a while waiting for some big techs to bulb (Paper and Machinery). Building both wonders makes the chances of getting a GS first near zero. By the time we could build a library and hire scientists, the GPPs from the two wonders are near 100. With only 1 wonder, we can get a library earlier and give ourselves a 40-50% chance of an early GS. So, I would advise against trying for both wonders.

Thank you very much for testing Shannon. You have broken my wonderlust and I'm now very happy for us to go for just one world wonder. I support the idea of going for the GLHouse and probably the decision to self research Monarchy (when we come to that).

 

[ShannonCT]

Thank you very much for testing Shannon. You have broken my wonderlust and I'm now very happy for us to go for just one world wonder. I support the idea of going for the GLHouse and probably the decision to self research Monarchy (when we come to that).

So in that case, I like going for Hunting first. The fur camp really speeds up the tech rate and gives us Alpha by turn 60.

 

[Frederiksberg]

So in that case, I like going for Hunting first. The fur camp really speeds up the tech rate and gives us Alpha by turn 60.

That's exactly what I did in my test game. First improve the fur and then the deer. I chose the tech path Hunting - Sailing - Masonry and whipped the lighthouse when we reached pop 4. First build after worker was work boat and then lighthouse. There were some odd turns where I put some hammers into an axe but barracks may be a better choice. A few guerrilla archers fortified on the silver hill will do a good job of defending against axes and add a couple of combat 1 axes to the mix for protection against swords to seal off the pass in the mountains. Similarly, woodsman axes can defend in the forests to the SE. With the cottage strategy it's important to be able to engage the enemy in the open to limit pillaging.

 

[leif erikson]

I just tested getting both Mids and GLH. I got Communism on turn 142, no better than with a single wonder. This was with getting 1 GM, 1 GE, and 3 GSs. The GM and GE sat around for quite a while waiting for some big techs to bulb (Paper and Machinery). Building both wonders makes the chances of getting a GS first near zero. By the time we could build a library and hire scientists, the GPPs from the two wonders are near 100. With only 1 wonder, we can get a library earlier and give ourselves a 40-50% chance of an early GS. So, I would advise against trying for both wonders.

If the consensus is to go for GLH, maybe Leif should work out a plan for his turnset. Remember that in my testing, the earliest date the AI got GLH was turn 47.

I am a bit surprised. You did well to get 3 Great Scientists. I like your RNG better than mine!!

I play tested a bit last night the next turn set and got attacked by Bismarck on Turn 42. Hope this doesn't happen in our game. Still got the Great Lighthouse, but late.

@Fred - When did you revolt to Slavery so you could pop-rush the Lighthouse?

 

[Mad Professor]

Checking in from Nairobi. My reading is up to date!

The industrious contingent makes wonders a bit more hairy. Can we do both mids and GLH? Pity about the warrior being bounced back and cut off from exploring until open borders. Very nice start otherwise though. The extra happy resources make it easier than what we were testing before, and copper under Beijing cannot be plundered No need for archery in a hurry