SGOTM 07 - Xteam

The industrious contingent makes wonders a bit more hairy. Can we do both mids and GLH?

My testing indicates that going for GLH and Mids as quickly as possible delays Alphabet by about 10 turns, thus delaying the Great Library by 10 turns. In the end, it doesn't get you to Communism any sooner than just building 1 wonder, and if we fail to build the second wonder (20-30% chance of that happening), we will have delayed Alpha with no benefit.
 
leif erikson said:
@Fred - When did you revolt to Slavery so you could pop-rush the Lighthouse?

Immediately before the pop-rush Could have been done earlier though, but not before Hunting. Remember to work the fur tile for a few turns in order to get Hunting in 4.
 
Sounds like we have arrived at a general plan forward. Are there still details -- such as, when to build or at least begin a second worker, whether and/or when we need to start an axe so it's available for rushing if invaded, what roads are immediately needed, etc. -- worth discussing before leif proceeds?

Is leif going to finish the GLH before ending his turn?
 
Is leif going to finish the GLH before ending his turn?

I think he should so that we don't have to keep track of any partial chopping going into my turnset.

Here's one sequence I worked out for getting the GLH on turn 46:

1. Work fur long enough to get Hunting in 4 turns. Switch back to unimproved deer when Hunting is guaranteed to come on turn 23.
2. Send worker to improve fur, begin WB. Research Sailing.
3. When fur camp is finished, work fur camp instead of deer. Send worker to mine marble.
4. When wokboat is finished start axe for one turn to let pop grow to 3. Next turn, start worker.
5. At Pop3, work 2 crabs and fur camp.
6. After Sailing, research Masonry.
7. When worker #1 finishes marble mine, go to chop forest north of marble.
8. After worker #2 is built, start LH. Make sure first chop goes into LH.
9. After Masonry, research Wheel.
10. Both workers go to quarry stone.
11. After Wheel, research Pottery.
12. After stone quarry, workers go to chop 2 different forests.
13. After LH, build GLH.
14. @Pop4, work 1 crab, fur, stone, and marble.
15. After Pottery, research Writing.
16. Both workers go to chop a single forest.
 
Sounds good, SCT. Will it be necessary to revolt to Slavery during the double chop and then pop rush GLH?

No, I didn't revolt to Slavery. It is probably possible to get the GLH 1 or 2 turns sooner with pop rushing, but unless we're worried about losing it to someone else (the earliest date I've seen is turn 47), I don't think we should pop rush. The GLH doesn't even get the trade route income until we can open borders with someone, and in my test games, I haven't been finding any AIs with Writing by turn 45. The other negative about pop rushing is that it slows down the Alpha date. Our happiness is quite limited until we can hook fur and silver, so pop rushing while we're still chopping the GLH means our population can't grow beyond 3 until the whip wears off. I'd say it's better to get to Pop4 quickly and then stagnate by working the stone and marble.
 
Here's one sequence I worked out for getting the GLH on turn 46:

1. Work fur long enough to get Hunting in 4 turns. Switch back to unimproved deer when Hunting is guaranteed to come on turn 23.
2. Send worker to improve fur, begin WB. Research Sailing.
3. When fur camp is finished, work fur camp instead of deer. Send worker to mine marble.
4. When wokboat is finished start axe for one turn to let pop grow to 3. Next turn, start worker.
5. At Pop3, work 2 crabs and fur camp.
6. After Sailing, research Masonry.
7. When worker #1 finishes marble mine, go to chop forest north of marble.
8. After worker #2 is built, start LH. Make sure first chop goes into LH.
9. After Masonry, research Wheel.
10. Both workers go to quarry stone.
11. After Wheel, research Pottery.
12. After stone quarry, workers go to chop 2 different forests.
13. After LH, build GLH.
14. @Pop4, work 1 crab, fur, stone, and marble.
15. After Pottery, research Writing.
16. Both workers go to chop a single forest.
This looks like a good plan to me. :thanx: No revolt until the GLHouse is completed, next turn set. Preserving pop where we can is a good plan as well.

I think we should also address diplomacy. As SCT said, I don't expect any offers of Open Borders, but I think it would be best to refuse them, except maybe for Asoka (trying to get Hinduism), until we get Writing. We can then decide who we should do deals with? If attacked, curl into the fetal position and :please: !!
 
By the time the GLH is completed, the axe start may have disappeared. Don't see a good way around that without sacrificing time to GLH completion. Anyone view this as a serious concern?
 
By the time the GLH is completed, the axe start may have disappeared. Don't see a good way around that without sacrificing time to GLH completion. Anyone view this as a serious concern?
I played a test last night to try and figure this out and was attacked. The hammers in the Axe saved me, so I didn't think they were wasted. Should an attack happen, we will need an Axe soonest! :eek:

The only alternative I see is a Barracks? :hmm:
JT said:
Is there any obsessive graph-checking or diplomacy-screen-checking we need to be doing during this turnset?
I will be checking the "Declare War" section of the AI we know. If they have "more than they can handle", I will be extra vigilante!! (thanks for pointing that out, btw) Once I see that, my experience is that within the next 10 turns, someone is getting attacked... :eek: :eek:
 
Is there any fog that needs to be busted before our next border pop, or are the barbarians already ejected from the game?
Actually, there is one bit of fog 3 tiles west and one tile SW of Beijing that is dark. We could move a Warrior over there but it a long walk back should someone declare? Of course, a Barb Archer could be a problem as well. :hmm:
 
I thought that the AI could only ask you to accept their religion if that religion had already spread to your city. I'm not sure that the Religion Pressure event can cause religion to spread to your city.

I was thinking the same thing but was unsure. So another way to think of the Religion Pressure event is that it is the "convert to" this religion option for the AI. So for us to get an AI to convert we must first have spread that religion to one of their cities, so the same process is in play for them to convert us.

BTW, Great Artist aren't a complete waste. Both Military Tradition & Communism are on the GPP tech list for them but you need someone to help with Monotheism, Monarchy, Theology & Divine Right if you are trying to do a research beeline. You can try to delay learning Monotheism for as long as possible by putting off either Poly or Masonary, but eventually you'll want Poly for Literature, National Epic and Globe Theater. You can reach Military Tradition without learning Masonry, but you do need it to reach Communism. But if you are playing a peaceful game and using the 40 turn DP instead of the shared war approach it is a good option.
 
Actually, there is one bit of fog 3 tiles west and one tile SW of Beijing that is dark. We could move a Warrior over there but it a long walk back should someone declare? Of course, a Barb Archer could be a problem as well. :hmm:

Don't worry about that tile. Lizzy has that tile defogged. No barbs in this game. :woohoo:
 
I will be checking the "Declare War" section of the AI we know. If they have "more than they can handle", I will be extra vigilante!! (thanks for pointing that out, btw) Once I see that, my experience is that within the next 10 turns, someone is getting attacked... :eek: :eek:
Just figured out that you can't see this until Writing is discovered. Back to flying in the dark without instruments. :mischief:

Try to get this done tomorrow evening. :thumbsup:
 
ShannonCT said:
No, I didn't revolt to Slavery. It is probably possible to get the GLH 1 or 2 turns sooner with pop rushing, but unless we're worried about losing it to someone else (the earliest date I've seen is turn 47), I don't think we should pop rush. The GLH doesn't even get the trade route income until we can open borders with someone, and in my test games, I haven't been finding any AIs with Writing by turn 45. The other negative about pop rushing is that it slows down the Alpha date. Our happiness is quite limited until we can hook fur and silver, so pop rushing while we're still chopping the GLH means our population can't grow beyond 3 until the whip wears off. I'd say it's better to get to Pop4 quickly and then stagnate by working the stone and marble.

Do you have an estimate of how much Alpha is slowed by pop-rushing the Lighthouse? In my game I pop rushed Lighthouse and Library in order to save some forests for chopping Wonders (GLib, Nat. Epic, Oxford). Pop rushing wonders is not good because there is a huge hammer penalty so the only feasible way to get them sooner is by chopping. And if we can chop one less forest we can connect the fur faster to boost happiness.
 
Got up, nice and refreshed, and played the set. We have The Great Lighthouse and there have been no hints of attacks. Hinduism is spreading as all our neighbors have it except Lizzie.

<< THE SAVE >>

The turn log:
Turn 19 &#8211; 3240 BC
Change research to Hunting. Change citizen assignments to Crab and Fur.

Turn 20 &#8211; 3200 BC
Move Warrior back to city to get fortify bonus, just in case.

Turn 21 &#8211; 3160 BC
Worker => Work Boat.
Worker to Fur. Warrior enters Beijing.
Washington converts to Hinduism

Turn 22 &#8211; 3120 BC
Warrior fortifies.
Worker enters Fur tile.
Reassign citizen to work Crab and Deer tiles.

Turn 23 &#8211; 3080 BC
Hunting => Sailing.
Worker begins Camp on Fur.
Asoka and Elizabeth revolt to Slavery.

Turn 24 &#8211; 3040 BC
:sleep:

Turn 25 &#8211; 3000 BC
:sleep:

Turn 26 &#8211; 2960 BC
Worker completes Camp.
Reassign citizen to work Crab and Fur Camp.
Sailing goes from 7 turns to 5 turns.

Turn 27 &#8211; 2920 BC
Work Boat => Axe.
Work Boat to second Crab. Worker to Marble.
Toku adopts Slavery.

Turn 28 &#8211; 2880 BC
Worker mines Marble.
Work Boat works Crab.
Beijing grows to size 3, reassign citizens to work both Crabs and the Fur.
Change build from Axe to Worker, due in 6 turns.

Turn 29 &#8211; 2840 BC
:sleep:

Turn 30 &#8211; 2800 BC
:sleep:

Turn 31 &#8211; 2760 BC
Sailing => Masonry
Mine on Marble completes.

Turn 32 &#8211; 2720 BC
Worker to forest grass east of Beijing.

Turn 33 &#8211; 2680 BC
Worker begins chop.
Judaism is founded in a distant land.

Turn 34 &#8211; 2640 BC
Worker => Lighthouse.
Worker continues to chop.
Worker2 to Stone Hill.

Turn 35 &#8211; 2600 BC
Masonry => Wheel
Worker2 begin Quarry.
Worker completes chop.
I see a lot of Archer from Washington! :eek:

Turn 36 &#8211; 2560 BC
Worker to Stone Hill.
All our neighbors remain cautious towards us.

Turn 37 &#8211; 2520 BC
Both Workers now Quarrying.

Turn 38 &#8211; 2480 BC
Workers complete Quarry.
Oracle completes in a far away land.

Turn 39 &#8211; 2440 BC
Wheel => Pottery
Lighthouse still has two turns remaining and Beijing has grown to pop 4. Change citizen assignments to both Crabs, Marble and Deer for a turn so as not to lose pop.
Workers to forest grasses, one SW of Beijing, the other SW of the Stone Hill.

Turn 40 &#8211; 2400 BC
Both Workers chop.
Reassign citizens to Crab, Stone Hill, Marble Hill and Fur. We have 4 food in the box and are losing 1 food per turn.

Turn 41 &#8211; 2360 BC
Lighthouse => Great Lighthouse.
With Lighthouse completes, we are now at zero food growth and max hammers.
All our neighbors are still cautious. We can trade Open Borders with Asoka.


Turn 42 &#8211; 2320 BC
Workers complete chops
Washington&#8217;s border expands to encompass the Silver Hill. :rolleyes:
Tokugawa converts to Hinduism.
Stonehenge completes in a far away land.

Turn 43 &#8211; 2280 BC
Workers to forest grass 2 west of Beijing.

Turn 44 &#8211; 2240 BC
Pottery => Writing.
Workers chop.

Turn 45 &#8211; 2200 BC
Worker to Deer tile.

Turn 46 &#8211; 2160 BC
Great Lighthouse => Axe.
Workers are unmoved and unassigned this turn, so we can decide what is next.

After Action Report:
We have The Great Lighthouse, just as Shannon worked out! :goodjob:

All of our neighbors remain cautious towards us. We can trade Open Borders with Asoka if we wish, I did not do so. Washington and Tokugawa have converted to Hinduism, Elizabeth has not. We have passed Toku in score.

On the Foreign Advisor Summary screen, it is no surprise that Toku is annoyed with Asoka, Washington and Elizabeth and all are annoyed with him, except Asoka, who is cautious due to Toku&#8217;s conversion to Hinduism.

EDIT - We have not revolted to Slavery yet!
 
Roster:
ShannonCT - UP
Frederiksberg - On Deck
Cactus Pete
Jimmy Thunder
Mad Professor
- Off on an African adventure and reading a lot! :scan: :eek:
Gator - Still on diplomacy. :)
rrau
leif
- Just Played!!

Mistfit - :cheers:
 
Well done securing the GLH! :goodjob:

Now that the Wonder is in place it's probably a good idea to shift focus from hammers to commerce and get Alphabet in the fewest possible turns. Opening borders with Asoka is probably OK allthough we won't get the trade route before we also open borders with Washington.
 
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