SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[ShannonCT]

Do we need the connecting road or just the agreement?

This is good news and should speed research along!

We need the road.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Not that it's entirely that interesting, but it seems the first team to Alphabet so far is Unusual Suspects at turn 60 - see massive score spike after turn 60.

 

[rrau]

I thought it was just roads. As long as you aren't at war with a civ, your trade routes can pass through their territory.

[edit] Their spike is VERTICAL

 

[Frederiksberg]

Not confused about the counting -- it takes five turns, which includes the present turn, to complete the roading -- but perhaps I am confused about when the city grows and when Writing comes in. Thought Writing in five turns or growth in turns included the present turn, but perhaps not.

If you grow in 1 turn the extra pop will appear after pressing "enter" but if you build an improvement that takes one turn to build it will appear in the same turn and if it takes two turns is will appear the next turn in the same turn as the growth. Thus, the growth should appear in turn T46+4=T50 and the road should appear the same turn because it takes 5 turns to build.

 

[ShannonCT]

So it seems like Fred and CP are suggesting that we work three coastal tiles, including both crabs, and the furs, so that we grow in 4 turns and get writing in 4 turns. The 5th citizen will be unhappy when turn 50 begins but will end the turn happy, and no productivity will be lost. If we go this route, our first axe will come on turn 51, and we could have another one on turn 54.

By this time we will have writing and be able to watch out for any warning signs of attack. If we see signs of attack, we should revolt to slavery and probably build a third axe. If we feel safer, we can build a library after the second axe. With 2 axes, we could send both of our warriors to explore, since they are unlikely to be much use in defending against an axe rush.

Fred suggested we explore pop-rushing the library. I've tried this, both with whipping 2 and 3 people, and either way pushes back Alpha from turn 61 to 62. This is probably because we have an abundance of tiles producing at least 3 coins. Whipping away people that can produce 3 coins each cancels out the 25% research bonus of the library. I don't think it makes sense to whip the library then. We're not in any hurry to produce anything else.

For our two workers, my tentative plan is to build the quickest connection to Washington so we can get trade income next turn, (opening borders with Asoka). Then the workers build roads on the marble and fur to give us the extra happiness on turn 50. Then they both build a marble quarry in 3 turns to give us 3 more coins on that tile. Then they both go hook the silver.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Plan sounds sound, and you've probably already thought through my concerns, but I'll play the devil's advocate as due diligence.

So it seems like Fred and CP are suggesting that we work three coastal tiles, including both crabs, and the furs, so that we grow in 4 turns and get writing in 4 turns. Actually I'd prefer to work just two coastal tiles and go for Writing and growth in five turns in order to get the axe out in three turns. The 5th citizen will be unhappy when turn 50 begins but will end the turn happy, and no productivity will be lost. Yes, Fred had this correct. If we go this route, our first axe will come on turn 51, and we could have another one on turn 54. I still like a scout next to speed exploration, but you've tested and should have a better feel.

By this time we will have writing and be able to watch out for any warning signs of attack. If we see signs of attack, we should revolt to slavery and probably build a third axe. If we feel safer, we can build a library after the second axe. With 2 axes we could send both of our warriors to explore, since they are unlikely to be much use in defending against an axe rush. Why wait for the second axe to complete before sending the second warrior off?,

Fred suggested we explore pop-rushing the library. I've tried this, both with whipping 2 and 3 people, and either way pushes back Alpha from turn 61 Are you saying we can get the library at turn 61 without rushing or chopping? If chopping is involved, why isn't the loss of just one turn worth saving the forests for the GLIB?to 62. This is probably because we have an abundance of tiles producing at least 3 coins. Whipping away people that can produce 3 coins each cancels out the 25% research bonus of the library. I don't think it makes sense to whip the library then. We're not in any hurry to produce anything else. Might not we need axes?

For our two workers, my tentative plan is to build the quickest connection to Washington so we can get trade income next turn, (opening borders with Asoka). Then the workers build roads on the marble and fur to give us the extra happiness on turn 50. Then they both build a marble quarry in 3 turns to give us 3 more coins on that tile. Then they both go hook the silver. Your presuming it will be included in our cultural borders after expansion?

Like to see a cottage built too.

 

[ShannonCT]

Actually I'd prefer to work just two coastal tiles and go for Writing and growth in five turns in order to get the axe out in three turns.

OK, we could still get Alpha on turn 61 doing this.

I still like a scout next to speed exploration, but you've tested and should have a better feel.

I'm thinking 2 warriors should serve our exploration needs well. If we build a scout, we probably need to delete one of the warriors or our research will fall to 90%.

Why wait for the second axe to complete before sending the second warrior off?

I'll send him sooner as long as we don't appear to be in danger of being archer rushed.

Are you saying we can get the library at turn 61 without rushing or chopping? If chopping is involved, why isn't the loss of just one turn worth saving the forests for the GLIB?

Yes, we can get the library on turn 61 without pop-rushing or chopping if we grow to Pop5 in 5 turns instead of 4, and if we build 2 axes before the library.

Might not we need axes?

We might. We'll have a better idea of this when we complete writing. If no one seems poised to attack, we can emphasize growth and teching over hammers and units.

Your presuming it will be included in our cultural borders after expansion?

I am presuming that our borders will beat back Washington's and let us access the silver. I'm betting that Washington's borders expanded faster because Hinduism spread to his capital. That would give his capital 3 culture per turn. He would have somewhere between 112 and 114 culture in his capital right now, compared to our 92. But we're earning 8 culture per turn to his 3. So we would overtake his culture in 5 or 6 turns, unless he builds a wonder or founds a religion.

Like to see a cottage built too.

I suggest we start cottaging after hooking the silver.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Thanks for the additonal info. You're good to go as far as I'm concerned.

Be interested if Gator suggests there are likely diplomatic issues that may impinge upon your turn set.

 

[leif erikson]

I think the plan is sound as well. Just a couple of devil's advocate type stuff.

In a test game, I had two workers stolen when I tried to hook up the Silver because, if attacked, we won't know they are coming as they are inside their own borders. The Silver will be against his borders and, should he attack, then our Workers are gone! Not sure how to avoid this, perhaps an Axe as cover (?), but please consider the possibility.

I also did my scouting in the test game with a Scout and deleted the Warriors. The reason for this was that I could afford to have an extra Axe in the capital in case of . The Scout moves twice as fast, so one does the work of two. Perhaps a consideration?

 

[ShannonCT]

Good point about protecting the workers. I'll use an axe to protect the workers on the silver.

If we're going to delete the warriors eventually, I'd say we should put them to work now. They should have about 15 turns to explore before we start paying maintenance on one. The main thing they need to accomplish now is meeting everyone. We can get a complete picture of the continent later.

 

[leif erikson]

If we're going to delete the warriors eventually, I'd say we should put them to work now. They should have about 15 turns to explore before we start paying maintenance on one. The main thing they need to accomplish now is meeting everyone. We can get a complete picture of the continent later.

OK, works for me.

EDIT - I've begun the indexing of the thread in the 2nd post. If there is something you'd like to see in it, please let me know and I'll add it as we go along. I've found it isn't easy to do as you either link a post or a page of the thread. Hard to capture discussions. I tried to figure out how to index our work on Pyramids versus Great Lighthouse and, well, kind of threw in the towel as you will see. Suggestions are welcome.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Can't be easy, leif. Appreciate your effort.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Plan sounds good to me.

I would be happy with just sending warriors out and not building a scout, but that's just my personal preference as I very rarely will build scouts. Also, I don't think scouts can give a happy face as a military police unit, so that might be an argument aginst building one.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Do we have a policy for opening borders? In my test games I simply opened borders with everyone and waited for the diplomatic situation to settle. Then, when asked to cancel deals I would choose side. Can we do better than this? Positive thing is that the sooner we open borders the sooner we get +1 for open borders. And we may need to open borders with several civs to get our 3 trade routes.

EDIT: Scouting with a warrior is fine with me - this is a tiny map!

 

[ShannonCT]

Do we have a policy for opening borders? In my test games I simply opened borders with everyone and waited for the diplomatic situation to settle. Then, when asked to cancel deals I would choose side. Can we do better than this? Positive thing is that the sooner we open borders the sooner we get +1 for open borders. And we may need to open borders with several civs to get our 3 trade routes.

Opening borders with Asoka and Washington will be enough to get us three trade routes. But if we want to meet all AI on our continent, we need more than that. I'd say we should open borders with anyone whose land we need to pass through. Maybe we can avoid open borders with Toku.

If we are asked to cancel deals early, I think we have to refuse. Either way we take a -1 hit with someone, but -1 usually isn't enough to prevent tech trading. By turn 90, we need to start choosing sides and getting involved in some wars.

I plan on playing in 12-14 hours, stopping to discuss tech trading.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Opening borders with Asoka and Washington will be enough to get us three trade routes.

Let's hope so. I did play one test game where trade routes were hard to come by. Anyway I think we should risk open border with Toku if we don't get the 3 trade routes with Washington and Asoka. More open borders might also reflect in more profitable trade routes.

 

[leif erikson]

Anyway I think we should risk open border with Toku if we don't get the 3 trade routes with Washington and Asoka. More open borders might also reflect in more profitable trade routes.

I'll be surprised if we can get Open Borders with Toku before we can change to Hinduism, which seems like the best option at this point. Nothing like good neighbors to help protect your territory.

 

[leif erikson]

If we are asked to cancel deals early, I think we have to refuse. Either way we take a -1 hit with someone, but -1 usually isn't enough to prevent tech trading. By turn 90, we need to start choosing sides and getting involved in some wars.

It was hard trying to identify who would be the power later. In the early game it changes so much. The Diplo summary screen will show who is the bad guy to the other civs. It could be Lizzie.

I plan on playing in 12-14 hours, stopping to discuss tech trading.

Good Luck!
While lighting the alter candles to the RNG.

 

[ShannonCT]

Playing now...

 

[ShannonCT]

OK, I just played up to turn 62, when we got Alphabet. It came one turn later than in the test game because we didn't get our third trade route until we could open borders with Washington. We did get the library done a turn early (60).

No one has declared war on anyone, and as far as I can tell, no one is planning to. We've met 6 more AI: Frederick, Julius, Alexander, Capac, Kublai, and Issabella. Alex and Issy are Buddhist (founded by Issy). Julius and Fred are Hindu. Hinduism has spread to us as well, but I haven't adopted it yet.

There are three AI that we can trade techs other than Alpha with. We should be able to pick up Mysticism, Animal Husbandry, and Archery this turn without trading Alpha. Then next turn we can start trading Alpha for Polytheism, Meditation, Iron Working, and maybe Math and HBR.

I'll attach the save here, but I haven't uploaded it to the SGOTM server.