SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[leif erikson]

That's a long time. Building a forge only means two extra or about 6 turns of growth with a Granary. We can push the happy cap 1 further with temple and grow a little above the happy cap. Maybe it will work out...

I agree that it is a long time. It is about the same amount of time needed for both CoL's and CS.

As Monarchy will allow us to grow, I am starting to think that Monarchy is more important than CS right now. The real power of CS isn't really unleashed until we can grow in pop. Taking the route of Forge isn't really that great of an option since our health limit is 8 at the moment and a Forge will make that 7. If we can grow Beijing, the extra citizens producing more commerce may make Monarchy pay for itself in extra citizens and production?

Monarchy currently would require 8 turns. It may be less once we grow and hire a Scientist.

 

[Cactus Pete]

It's an intersting debate. The 25% build bonus from a forge and the likelihood of trading for Monarchy earlier than in test games need to be considered.

 

[Frederiksberg]

As Monarchy will allow us to grow, I am starting to think that Monarchy is more important than CS right now. The real power of CS isn't really unleashed until we can grow in pop.

In my test games I self researched Monarchy, but in those games the happy cap was a lot lower due to no religion and fewer happiness resources so the decision was not that hard. In the current game it's tempting to see if we can save those beakers and use them on a tech that's on the beeline for Communism.

If we are following a plan where growth is halted for a while might it be better to build a Monastery rather than a Granary?

 

[Cactus Pete]

"If we are following a plan where growth is halted for a while might it be better to build a Monastery rather than a Granary?"

Growth may be slowed, but not halted (we'll have access to both sheep and deer, which will mitigate the effect of the forge and chopped forest). The fact that it may slow would seem to argue in favor of a granary in order to minimize the slowing.

BTW, JT should be able to micro-manage so that Literature comes in as the granary is completed. (Be hard to do that with a monastary at this point.)

 

[Frederiksberg]

Growth may be slowed, but not halted (we'll have access to both sheep and deer, which will mitigate the effect of the forge and chopped forest). The fact that it may slow would seem to argue in favor of a granary in order to minimize the slowing.

In a way you can look at the Granary as a building that doubles the effect of any excess food. This means that with little growth you only get little benefit from the Granary. In the extreme case, where you have no growth the Granary is useless. Similarly, if we have a period in time where growth is slow the presence of the Granary may cause the city to grow maybe one pop extra compared to having no Granary while in a period with fast growth the Granary will help the city to grow many extra pop. Thus, the Granary is less needed in the slow growth phase.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Thus, the Granary is less needed in the slow growth phase." On the other hand, it still doubles the rate of growth, so if you're in slow growth (but not stagnant) it's nice to have it.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I guess I should be prosing a plan soon for my turns coming up in the weekend.

We still have some debate on:
what to do with a GMerchant
what tech after Literature
what city build before the GLib
are we looking to start wars in my turnset

Other things like worker management and hiring scientists, I can work something out and put it in the plan.

 

[leif erikson]

I guess I should be proposing a plan soon for my turns coming up in the weekend.

We still have some debate on:
what to do with a GMerchant

I like CP's idea of waiting on Math in order to bulb Metal Casting. SCT worked out a good scheme to achieve this.
It is located in this post!

what tech after Literature

It seems that many things in this game are so 50 / 50.
What I mean is that it is not always clear what the best choice is. I am fine with a beeline for CS via CoL's. I am still not entirely convinced that Monarchy is not a good choice because it would allow us to continue growing while we work towards CS, with the possibility that it will shorten the research time as we add citizens. I will add that I have not tested this so am not sure it would work out that way. That is why I'm fine with going the CoL's => CS route.

what city build before the GLib

This is another one where I'm not sure what is best. I opened the game and sat staring at it for a while this afternoon. Thinking about a Monastery, there are several reasons to consider it:
- It gives us a 10% bonus to beakers per turn.
- It gives us an additional 2 culture per turn and speeds our next border expansion. This expansion will encompass the Crab to our west and give us another food bonus towards health. With a Harbor, that will give us two seafood resources for +4 to health.
- It allows us to build a Hindu Missionary, after Great Library, which we can use on the Inca, hopefully bringing them into our religious sphere.

I do understand the benefits of a Granary as well. And I am fine with the Granary in the final analysis.

are we looking to start wars in my turnset

I think we are expecting to try to get to Communism pre-1000 AD. 1000 AD is turn 160. We need forty turns of shared war with someone before we reach Communism. I would consider us to be starting late if we wait to turn 120. I think we should consider a target date of turn 100, or something near that to begin warring? That gives us some room for peace if our ally decides to take a rest.

Other things like worker management and hiring scientists, I can work something out and put it in the plan.

We need the Great Library as quickly as possible!!
At growth, I like the idea of hiring a Scientist and taking our chances.
We can do some pre-chopping and try to get the Sheep hooked up.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"At growth, I like the idea of hiring a Scientist and taking our chances."

If you move a citizen off the plain's cottage and onto the deer, you will get both growth and Lit in five turns (which represents an efficiency, as it lets you grow quicker and start the GLIB without hesitation). It also has the advantage over SCT's plan in that we never have to take a citizen off the extremely productive marble tile. After five turns hire a scientist(s). Think you should compare the two mm scenarios.

 

[DJMGator13]

Okay here is the an attempt at what will be our running diplo tracker. I've already seen one flaw in my thinking of being able to control when demands come. Note that on turn 62 we initiate a tech trade with Washington, then just 2 turns later he came back "offering"/"demanding" a tech trade that we refuse. So, we can't change the cycle of the AI demand.

In the legend area at the top you'll notice that I included some attitude thresholds. For example, the DemandTributeAttitudeThreshold displays the attitude level, above which the AI will stop asking for tributes. These are why as your diplo rating increases you get less demands from that AI. The last two in this area show what level you must be above for an AI to sign a Defensive Pact and a Permanent Alliance.

EDIT: We need to be sure to note who initiated the diplo contact, as simple as "us and "them" will work for spreadsheet.

 

[DJMGator13]

I'm running off to a church league softball game, helping to coaching not playing this year thanks to the surgery. Quick question about the game:

Just confirming that currently there are no wars of any kind and we have no surplus resources not currently traded. I'm trying to see if I can predict what demands might occur during the next 15 to 20 turns. I probably won't have time until tomorrow night to do it though.

 

[DJMGator13]

I made a change to the file. (Sorry for the triple post but it is the quickiest way to attach the file.)

 

[Frederiksberg]

I guess I should be prosing a plan soon for my turns coming up in the weekend.

We still have some debate on:
what to do with a GMerchant
what tech after Literature
what city build before the GLib
are we looking to start wars in my turnset

Other things like worker management and hiring scientists, I can work something out and put it in the plan.

My preferences would be:

- Use GS for Academy, use GM for MC
- CoL + CS after Literature (Maybe reassess the situation after CoL)
- Monastery if we follow a slow growth plan, otherwise Granary.
- I think we should start a war when we have the techs to bribe our allies. When we have CS this might be a good time because we can use it to bribe and we can build maces for defense.

I'm off to Spain. See you again a week from now and good luck with the turn set JT

 

[ShannonCT]

what to do with a GMerchant

I think we need to pull the trigger on MC unless we can trade for Monarchy soon. The prospect of building a half-price forge for 2 happiness and 25% hammer bonus makes up for lower beaker value of MC (only 25% less than Paper).

what tech after Literature

If we get MC, go for CoL and CS. 3 more happiness from a forge and temple should allow us to grow sufficiently until we trade for Monarchy.

what city build before the GLib

In anticipation of getting more happiness after GLib, I would continue with the granary.

are we looking to start wars in my turnset

No need to force one yet. We don't have much trade bait yet. If you are asked by one of the Hindus to join a war, go for it.

 

[leif erikson]

If you move a citizen off the plain's cottage and onto the deer, you will get both growth and Lit in five turns (which represents an efficiency, as it lets you grow quicker and start the GLIB without hesitation). It also has the advantage over SCT's plan in that we never have to take a citizen off the extremely productive marble tile. After five turns hire a scientist(s). Think you should compare the two mm scenarios.

I see your point and agree it is the better way to go.

I'm off to Spain. See you again a week from now and good luck with the turn set JT

Hope you have a nice trip Fred.

In anticipation of getting more happiness after GLib, I would continue with the granary.

Yes, let's continue with the Granary.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Gator, when I open your diplo file, I get uninterpretable hieroglyphics. Can you help me out?

(Hope your well coached team won. Slow pitch?)

 

[leif erikson]

Gator, when I open your diplo file, I get uninterpretable hieroglyphics. Can you help me out?

Did you try to open it in Word?
It is an Excel file. It will only open in spreadsheet format.

Very interesting Gator. I bet those Gator eyes are seeing double...


Glad to see you out and about coaching. Neck must be better!

 

[leif erikson]

In the legend area at the top you'll notice that I included some attitude thresholds. For example, the DemandTributeAttitudeThreshold displays the attitude level, above which the AI will stop asking for tributes. These are why as your diplo rating increases you get less demands from that AI. The last two in this area show what level you must be above for an AI to sign a Defensive Pact and a Permanent Alliance.

EDIT: We need to be sure to note who initiated the diplo contact, as simple as "us and "them" will work for spreadsheet.

How would you like to use this?
Do you want each player to update the spreadsheet as they play? Or do want to keep the master and update it via the turn logs?

If Gator keeps it, we will all need to ensure we provide the details needed in our logs.

 

[rrau]

I don't have excel

 

[Cactus Pete]

I copy into Word without sucess. Can't find way to locate and then save in Word. Be glad to just let Gator keep me informed.