SGOTM 07 - Xteam

[Jimmy Thunder]

Good work rrau.

Now that we can see our juicy big fat cross it is time to get pedantic about our next turnset.

City builds, research turns and worker actions...

Is anyone currently working on an updated test map?

We have a higher chance of safety in the BC years with peacful neighbours. Now that we have such a strong capital site, is there any chance in exploring Pyramids plus GreatLighthouse plus Great Library?

EDIT: I'd also say that we don't want to adopt slavery yet since we have high yield tiles and a low happy cap.

 

[leif erikson]

Is anyone currently working on an updated test map?

I might have some time late tomorrow, if no one has one up before then.

We have a higher chance of safety in the BC years with peacful neighbours. Now that we have such a strong capital site, is there any chance in exploring Pyramids plus GreatLighthouse plus Great Library?

Now we're pushing the envelope!
Went back and looked at the logs of the test games. It may be possible to get both.
The Pyramids and the GLHouse were completing around turns 58 to 60. Is this what others have from their games? We should be able to push Mids first while we research Wheel and then Sailing. We will need to chop more than I'd like, but I think it may be possible. There are 10 forests in the bfc. We do not need to keep as many because of the extra food resources. I think we should keep the forests on the Fur and the Deer intact. We know we need to chop the grassland forests for Cottages.

I'm game to give it a test for sure, I think we could do it!

EDIT: I'd also say that we don't want to adopt slavery yet since we have high yield tiles and a low happy cap.

The only caution would be it would be nice to be in Slavery in case we were attacked, we can now rush Axes if needed, once we grow some more pop. It may be better early than once we start into wonder builds. In testing, it reached size 5 before turn 50, iirc. I think testing will tell us if we have the time to make the change.

EDIT - @rrau - Bold Orange looks much better on my monitor.

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

I just did a quick test myself and we got Pyramids on 2280BC (turn 44) and Great Lighthouse on 1720BC (turn 58).

Research Masonry
Worker finishes and mines marble, build workboat
Mine built and worker moves to stone
Masonry comes in at the right time and quarry started on stone, Research Wheel
workboat finishes and moves to 2nd crab, build Pyramids (without stone bonus for a few turns)
Finish quarry, Wheel comes 1 turn before needed to build road, Research Sailing
Build and Finish road, move to riverside grassland and chop
Get Sailing, Research Hunting
Build road on grassland
Get hunting, research Pottery
Move worker to deer, build camp
We get Pyramids, revolt to Rep/Slavery, Build lighthouse
Build road on dear, move worker to fur, build camp on fur
Get pottery, Research writing
Finish lighthouse, start Great lighthouse
Finish camp, chop one grassland forest....
Get Writing, start Alphabet

Finish Great Lighthouse


I've attached what I think is a test game (from the gauntlet base map) that is up to date with our real game.

 

[rrau]

I didn't revolt to slavery. In my test games, I don't think I revolted until after early wonders were in and we just got BW and we didn't discuss it as a team.

[edit] Do we want to get pottery or AH on the road to writing? We have sheep that are just waiting for a pasture to be built around them.

 

[ShannonCT]

Here is a more accurate test game that matches what we actually have in the food box and the hammers invested in the worker, and includes the cow, silver, and fish outside our BFC. Except in the test game, Hunting is 4 turns away, where in the real game, it's 5 away. Must be because we've only met 4 AI in the real game. If we want to go for Hunting right now, we'll have to work the fur for at least one turn rather than the deer.

 

[leif erikson]

[edit] Do we want to get pottery or AH on the road to writing? We have sheep that are just waiting for a pasture to be built around them.

With all the food we have, I think we can pick up AH in trade after Alphabet. I can't see delaying our beeline as we shouldn't need it until then?

Here is a more accurate test game that matches what we actually have in the food box and the hammers invested in the worker, and includes the cow, silver, and fish outside our BFC. Except in the test game, Hunting is 4 turns away, where in the real game, it's 5 away. Must be because we've only met 4 AI in the real game. If we want to go for Hunting right now, we'll have to work the fur for at least one turn rather than the deer.

Thanks SCT, I'm going to try it. I think Mids and GLHouse are doable. That would be a pretty nice kick, depending upon if there are any serious trade-offs. JT's data looked pretty good to me.

 

[ShannonCT]

We have a higher chance of safety in the BC years with peacful neighbours. Now that we have such a strong capital site, is there any chance in exploring Pyramids plus GreatLighthouse plus Great Library?

I tried for Mids plus GLH on my updated test map. I got the Mids on turn 45 (I built an extra worker at Pop3). I was going for GLH but it was built by someone else on turn 54. If we go for both wonders, there's a good chance that we'll miss the second won.

I think I'm leaning toward going for Mids (before GLH or instead of GLH). The extra happiness under Representation or HR will allow us to get big fast. Representation will guarantee us a happiness cap of 8, and with HR, the sky's the limit. Skipping GLH would let us build a few axemen and get a library quicker, so that we could improve our chance of our first GP being a GS.

[edit] Do we want to get pottery or AH on the road to writing? We have sheep that are just waiting for a pasture to be built around them.

We definitely want wheel so we can hook fur and stone ASAP. Given that we want wheel, pottery is a faster path to writing than animal husbandry. And with the surfeit of food we have right now, I don't think the sheep are needed before we start tech trading.

 

[rrau]

OK....Just asking.

 

[leif erikson]

I tried for Mids plus GLH on my updated test map. I got the Mids on turn 45 (I built an extra worker at Pop3). I was going for GLH but it was built by someone else on turn 54. If we go for both wonders, there's a good chance that we'll miss the second won.

I tried it twice as the first time I had the same thing happen as you did. GLHouse was built on turn 57, one turn before I completed it. I went back and replayed it and chopped an extra forest instead of building a camp on the deer while Mids were under construction. Then built the camp, then chopped another forest. I got the GLHouse on turn 57. Don't know if tie goes to us, but it worked. I think we should go for it, especially since Washington is right on our fur, we could use the extra culture as well as the commerce.

I think I'm leaning toward going for Mids (before GLH or instead of GLH). The extra happiness under Representation or HR will allow us to get big fast. Representation will guarantee us a happiness cap of 8, and with HR, the sky's the limit. Skipping GLH would let us build a few axemen and get a library quicker, so that we could improve our chance of our first GP being a GS.

Should we miss the GLHouse, the Gold would allow us to upgrade our Warriors to Axes. In my second test game, Writing finished the turn after GLHouse completed, so there is no delay in Library. If we do complete, we will need to decide if it is Axe before Library. If so, then we will delay it a bit, 2 turns per Axe.

 

[ShannonCT]

Just ran some random map generations with all of the settings from this challenge and with the four known AI on the roster. With Asoka and Washington eliminating Ghandi and Roosevelt, there are either 1 or 2 industrious AI in this game.

With 8 trials so far, Pyramids came anywhere between turns 45 and 60, with a median of 48. GLH came anywhere between turns 47 and 62, with a median of 54.5. Building Pyramids first looks very likely and building GLH after that is less than 50%.

 

[leif erikson]

With 8 trials so far, Pyramids came anywhere between turns 45 and 60, with a median of 48. GLH came anywhere between turns 47 and 62, with a median of 54.5. Building Pyramids first looks very likely and building GLH after that is less than 50%.

That is not encouraging? Are we back to the question of which wonder we should build? Or is the question how bold should we be?

Do we gain a significant advantage in building both wonders? Being in Representation provides some early advantages while GLHouse provides longer term benefits. Which are most important to us?

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think we have determined that working cottages is the best strategy given that we are a financial civ and given that the game will not be short.

So the best strategy is probably to grow the city as long as there are health available and tiles with cottages that need working. We have 6 grassland tiles that can be cottaged and in addition 5 other essential resource tiles: Sheep, deer, fur, 2 x crab. Assuming that we can get both the cow and the fish within our cultural borders we will have 14 health given that we build Aqueduct and harbor and keep 4 forests. Working these tiles will yield 31 food so a size 15 city with 4 scientists would be stagnant and so would a size 17 city working 2 additional coast tiles and 3 scientists. The question is now how fast we can get there and what wonder to choose.

If we go for the Pyramids the plan must be to stay in Hereditary Rule until we can trade for Drama and build the Globe. Then switch to Representation. If we can get fast enough to pop 15 this approach could make sense.

If we go for the GLH we probably need to research Monarchy after Alphabet (I don't think it will be available for trade that soon). So we use around 400 beakers for this. Upside is that we have 2 extra trade routes from T50 while the extra beakers from the Pyramids won't kick in before we can trade for Drama and build the Globe. There are also some diplomatic advantages of staying in HR since this is the most widespread favorite civic and it can earn us some cheap diplomatic points.

I think it would be interesting to compare these two approaches in the test game (btw there is a mistake - the forest tile 1W of the deer is grassland).

Test Game

I notice that in the test game we have the only available stone resource. What happens to the Pyramid dates if one or two of the AI's have stone inside the BFC?

 

[ShannonCT]

If we go for the Pyramids the plan must be to stay in Hereditary Rule until we can trade for Drama and build the Globe. Then switch to Representation. If we can get fast enough to pop 15 this approach could make sense.

If we go for the GLH we probably need to research Monarchy after Alphabet (I don't think it will be available for trade that soon). So we use around 400 beakers for this. Upside is that we have 2 extra trade routes from T50 while the extra beakers from the Pyramids won't kick in before we can trade for Drama and build the Globe. There are also some diplomatic advantages of staying in HR since this is the most widespread favorite civic and it can earn us some cheap diplomatic points.

Of the 4 AI on our continent so far, two like Universal Suffrage (Washington and Asoka), one likes Free Religion (Liz) and one likes Mercantilism (Toku). So as of right now, neither HR nor Representation will give us any big diplo bonus with an AI on our continent.

I notice that in the test game we have the only available stone resource. What happens to the Pyramid dates if one or two of the AI's have stone inside the BFC?

In the test I ran last night, I noticed that the distribution of Pyramids finish dates was rather bimodal. I saw a cluster of dates at 45-49 and another at 55-60, with none in between.

 

[leif erikson]

If we go for the Pyramids the plan must be to stay in Hereditary Rule until we can trade for Drama and build the Globe. Then switch to Representation. If we can get fast enough to pop 15 this approach could make sense.

Not sure I agree with HR. In testing, it seems to me that the +2 with Representation, the +1 with Fur and with Silver should carry us pretty near to Globe.

I was also thinking that we could get to GLHouse faster, after building Mids, by skipping Hunting for now and using the Worker to chop instead of building Camps. Once we switch to Representation, there is no need for the Fur until we get GLHouse completed. That might cut at least 3 to 4 turns off of GLHouse's completion date, as we can chop the Lighthouse.

EDIT - I should go count forests to make sure there are a couple left to help the Great Library out, since that is a must have...

EDIT2 - Just gave it a try. Was able to chop GLHouse by turn 55. It consumes 5 forests. This leaves one within the immediate bfc and one outside of it for GLibrary chops. I left the forests on the Deer and Fur intact and revolted to Slavery and Representation. Is turn 55 good enough to try for it?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Not sure I agree with HR. In testing, it seems to me that the +2 with Representation, the +1 with Fur and with Silver should carry us pretty near to Globe.

I'm with leif. Representation can start giving us benefit after we build our library, and we definitely want to be running it when we get Great Library, so the fewer civic changes the better. We can also trade for a happy resource once trade routes open. From memory, two AI civs have gold, I wonder if they have more than one source.

I was also thinking that we could get to GLHouse faster, after building Mids, by skipping Hunting for now and using the Worker to chop instead of building Camps. Once we switch to Representation, there is no need for the Fur until we get GLHouse completed. That might cut at least 3 to 4 turns off of GLHouse's completion date, as we can chop the Lighthouse.

I'd go for it. I think chopping heavily to get GLHouse after the Mids puts us in a very strong position.

Fred's idea of growing quickly and onto cottage tiles deserves some exploration and may stack up vs the double wonder grab. Although my gut says that getting the wonders while we can and then concentrating on growing afterward would be the best way to go.

Side note: We have to be wary of getting too closely focussed on micromanagement and wonder strategies that we forget to stay on top of the diplo situation.

• Do we want open borders with our neighbours as soon as they become available? Or just open borders with one of them to allow further exploration?
• Need to keep checking the trade screens to see if anyone is planning war i.e. "We have enough on our hands right now".
• Need to keep a check on the demographics and graphs.

Anything else?

 

[leif erikson]

I'd go for it. I think chopping heavily to get GLHouse after the Mids puts us in a very strong position.

I've been thinking about how to do the plan for the next turn set. The essential question is whether we are willing to go for the double wonder, and live with the result if we lose the GLHouse. Or is GLHouse essential to our strategy and, thus, we should forgo the Mids? I am with JT on this as I think we should go for it. However, I think it is a team decision and I'd like to hear more from others before we reach a decision, even if it requires that we delay the start of the turn set. I believe this is a significant decision.

Side note: We have to be wary of getting too closely focussed on micromanagement and wonder strategies that we forget to stay on top of the diplo situation.

• Do we want open borders with our neighbours as soon as they become available? Or just open borders with one of them to allow further exploration?
• Need to keep checking the trade screens to see if anyone is planning war i.e. "We have enough on our hands right now".
• Need to keep a check on the demographics and graphs.

Anything else?

In testing, I tried something that seemed to work fairly well. I did not do any deals for Open Borders until we had Writing. Before making deals, I went to the summary screen, where the leaders are along the top and left side of the screen and all the numbers are aligned in a matrix. In that screen, we can identify who is the "bad" guy between the civs. It may be religious differences or something else, but there generally seems to be one, rarely two, civs that have lower ratings than the others. I then sign Open Borders with the others. I think that it has saved some "You've traded with our worst enemy".

Would you please explain a bit more about "We have enough on our hands right now"?

 

[Jimmy Thunder]

Would you please explain a bit more about "We have enough on our hands right now"?

When you go to the trade screen and hover the mouse over the Declare War On: Washington, Tokugawa etc. it will be redded out with the excuse "We have enough on our hands right now" if the leader is currently preparing for a war (either with you or another Civ).

 

[Frederiksberg]

Not sure I agree with HR. In testing, it seems to me that the +2 with Representation, the +1 with Fur and with Silver should carry us pretty near to Globe.

My point is that we don't want to spend beakers on Drama since it's off both the beeline to CS and the beeline to Communism. We may, however, be forced to do this because Beijing will grow past the happy cap of 8 quite fast. We could, of course stay in Representation until the happy cap is reached then switch to HR and go back to Repr. when we at some point have traded for Drama and built the Globe. We don't want the Globe early anyway because it will give us more Great Artists.

I'm unsure about going for both wonders. If we miss we can't really use the gold for much. It requires a lot of forests... It would be ideal if we only had to chop the 6 grassland forests since they have to go anyway to make room for cottages. And I guess it will also mean that we can't improve any tiles for the first 55 turns or so thus slowing down tech pace somewhat. And what about defense. My test games indicated that we need 3-4 axes around T60 in preparation for DOW's.

It would be interesting to run a full test with the Communism date as benchmark to see if we really gain by having both wonders.

 

[ShannonCT]

I'd go for it. I think chopping heavily to get GLHouse after the Mids puts us in a very strong position.

Fred's idea of growing quickly and onto cottage tiles deserves some exploration and may stack up vs the double wonder grab. Although my gut says that getting the wonders while we can and then concentrating on growing afterward would be the best way to go.

If we want to try chopping the GLH, we would do well to have 2 workers. With two workers, we can plan on chopping the final two forests simultaneously such that we would finish the GLH the turn after that chop. If someone completes the GLH while we are chopping, we can stop the chop and save the forests. We can build the second worker before the Mids when we hit Pop3.

Side note: We have to be wary of getting too closely focussed on micromanagement and wonder strategies that we forget to stay on top of the diplo situation.

• Do we want open borders with our neighbours as soon as they become available? Or just open borders with one of them to allow further exploration?
• Need to keep checking the trade screens to see if anyone is planning war i.e. "We have enough on our hands right now".
• Need to keep a check on the demographics and graphs.

Anything else?

You raise a good point about opening borders. If we have the GLH, we will want to open enough borders to have three trade routes. But any more than that and we will start to run into AI demanding that we stop trading with their enemy. Without any open borders or resource trades with a particular AI, there are no trades to cancel, and we don't open ourselves to those early negative diplo hits. If Hinduism begins to dominate our continent, the Hindus will start liking each other better and will be less likely to demand trade cancelation.

 

[DJMGator13]

I unexpectantly went out of town for the weekend, so I haven't gotten a chance to mess around with any more of the diplo stuff this weekend. But our opening looks very good.

What I'm working on and will need some help to play test is data off the contact type probability and tie them together with the contact delay for each type.

Here is an example: For the 3 known AIs (Washington, Asoka & Liz), then the next diplo contact/demand should be for: (lower the number, higher the probability)

Washington: Tech trade 5, bonus trade 5, Open Border 20, Join War 20, Peace Treaty 20 or Trade Map 20.

Asoka: Tech Trade 2, bonus trade 2, Open Border 20, Join War 20, Peace Treaty 20 or Trade Map 20.

Elizabeth: Tech Trade 2, bonus trade 2, Join War 10, Open Border 20, Peace Treaty 20 or Trade Map 20.

There are other possible options that I have not listed here, but they have even higher numbers.

So by looking at these numbers, we need to keep a careful eye on any wars that Liz gets into because if she makes contact and there is no tech trade or bonus resource trade option then she may ask us to join a war we are not prepared to fight. She is actually more likely to ask us to join a war then to ask us for an Open border.

This and some of the contact delay cycles, ie what happens if we inititate contact, are what we need to play test. Obviously, if we have already signed Open borders than that option is removed from the list. Writing for open borders and Alpha for tech trading will probably start the contact counters, unless there is a war somewhere.