SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

BLubmuz · Sep 22, 2008

WastinTime said:
1) @Mesix: I'd rather Shaka settle some more and we get more free cities. Rushing over to the rice city with Axes doesn't seem very efficient. It's not a good city and it's too far away. Worse, if we go BronzeW and don't get bronze.

2) @GB: Our city is only size 2 (working cow/gold). This is a good time to go around to the fish.

3) @dutchfire: That's good use of the map tiles, but doesn't create very good production cities.

4) @Blub: Please do not even consider lightbulbing math. My head will explode.

1) agreed. BTW, in ALL my attempts Shaka settled a city 1W of rice around the time i was roading gold. So, this will happen in next TS.
2) what i said
3) a nice way to say what i said
4) why?
4a) turns count, not beakers. Math is some 9-10 turns.
4b) Which is the difference in cutting 9 turns of Education?
4c) When the Academy will pay those turns?
4d) It's the only way to not build the Oracle in capital, have 4 cities running by turn 71 and perform a pretty safe CS sling.
I can also add: and have a galley loaded with our scout to explore.

This time i sound a bit harsh, but honest: plan A or plan B or die (see my sig).

Sweetacshon · Sep 22, 2008

BLubmuz said:
Now expect some defraud from the RNG.

WastinTime said:
@Blub: Please do not even consider lightbulbing math. My head will explode.

Again

We can't have that happen.

Nice play, Blubmuz. I'm going to be without civ for about 6 days (should have internet, tho), so please skip me.

culdeus · Sep 22, 2008

I'll take a look at the new test game. Got totally swamped this weekend. Am I still next?

berserks01 · Sep 22, 2008

greatbeyond said:
Mea culpa, I was confusing wonders per turn with the actual, wonders divided by turns. It is not the same thing but, I think it is still better to build lots of wonders ourselves. It requires balancing building with warfare. A lot of this depends on our world which won't be answered until we explore more.

I was also confused about this. I was of the mindset to get as many wonders as possible early so we accumulate more points, but now that have to change.

Aren't there some wonders that the AIs always race each other for? Have we considered letting them build those and we take from them instead of building them ourselves? That way we can save those hammers for an army and we can build the ones the AI seem to leave til last to build.

WastinTime · Sep 22, 2008

berserks01 said:
Aren't there some wonders that the AIs always race each other for? Have we considered letting them build those and we take from them instead of building them ourselves? That way we can save those hammers for an army and we can build the ones the AI seem to leave til last to build.

Good idea. The problem is finding out where the wonder was built so we can get it in a reasonable amount of time...normal speed is tough.

BLubmuz · Sep 23, 2008

Roster
culdeus - UP
greatbeyond - on deck
Sweetacshon
WastinTime
berserks01
dutchfire
Balthalion
Merum
Mesix
Blubmuz - resting

BLubmuz · Sep 23, 2008

@ Culdeus
Yes. you're next. But we don't have yet an approved plan, so better you wait 'til the first TS in post 3 looks like this.
@ WT
i could have bet you posted a long answer to my points about explosions. didn't you?

C'mon, votes!!!
Plan A
Plan B
else (describe)

For some reason the forum hanged, so post splitted to avoid double (i don't know how to delete a post)

dutchfire · Sep 23, 2008

@Blub: Plan B means settling the marble city, but building the oracle in another city, right? So that takes 2 settlers.

BLubmuz · Sep 23, 2008

dutchfire said:
@Blub: Plan B means settling the marble city, but building the oracle in another city, right? So that takes 2 settlers.

No 3.
Plan B means:
after writing research sailing-Myst-masonry (you gain some beaker researching Myst before masonry)
first settler will go to ivory/pigs
2nd on marble
3rd 1N of cows, to get the clams in BFC - but this last one will be in place around the time Oracle will be completed in city 2, our prophet/artist oriented Wonder factory.

oh, well this is the autolog

Spoiler :

Of course, if we decide to follow this plan, we can work on the test to look for improvements.
e.g. in this test i built the first settler before the library, to have the city more developed to build the Oracle, but this has to be proven it's better.

berserks01 · Sep 23, 2008

WastinTime said:
Good idea. The problem is finding out where the wonder was built so we can get it in a reasonable amount of time...normal speed is tough.

I think we can get the info about which wonders built where in the demographics screen by trading maps, using spies, or targetting our esp points on the civ.

@Blub: sorry, I thought the votes were already cast and tallied. I vote for B. I have to reinstall civ on my new laptop (which just arrived yesterday), but then I can beging running the test games along with the game.

WastinTime · Sep 23, 2008

where's plan A and B?

Mesix · Sep 23, 2008

Another benefit to building the Oracle in the 2nd city is that you can combine the GP points from the Oracle with the GP points from the holy shrine. In going for a CS slingshot, it is highly likely that we found Conf. If that happens, the holy city will most likely be our second city. Combining the GP points from the Oracle and a priest will allow us to get a GP to build the shrine (counts as a wonder). If the shrine and the Oracle are in the same city, the points will not be polluting a different specialized city.

Another idea might be to get the Pyramids in the capitol. If it is going to be our production powerhuose once we reach Bureaucracy, having a forge and an engineer will only add to the production. We can switch the capitol from scientists to engineers and run scientists in the city north of City #2 (where we can also build the Great Library).

If we prechop the three forest tiles down to one turn, we can finish chopping as we complete Mathematics. This will give us +50% production from the chopping. Assuming that we settle the marble (as your plan B), it will also give us the additional bonus from the resource (benefiting both the Oracle and Great Library). When I get some time to run a test, I'll find out how fast it is doable like that. If no math chopping and marble bonus nets a turn 73 Oracle build, then surely this will be somewhere in the mid 60ish turn.

We could have four cities up by the time the Oracle finishes, with three wonders (4 with the shrine) self built soon after and a production powerhouse of a capitol ready to start building a force to take out Shaka (who will probably have 3-4 cities by this time).

WastinTime · Sep 23, 2008

Mesix said:
Another benefit to building the Oracle in the 2nd city is that you can combine the GP points from the Oracle with the GP points from the holy shrine. In going for a CS slingshot, it is highly likely that we found Conf. If that happens, the holy city will most likely be our second city.

Isn't it just a 50% chance that the holy city is there? Seems like a good argument to either have one city until CoL, so we get the shrine in the capitol and then build Oracle there too. Or if you want multiple cities, at least wait until after CoL to decide which one builds Oracle.

WastinTime · Sep 23, 2008

Having 4 cities before we're even close to currency/Great Lighthouse, etc. can really drag down the economy. The Pig city doesn't have much commerce and there's no danger of losing that site, so I'd grab the cow city first, then the Marble and Pig would come very quickly after Oracle.

BLubmuz · Sep 23, 2008

Plan A is the one in post #3,
Plan B has its autolog few posts above (the one dangerous for WT's head).

Confucianism will ALWAYS been founded in the 2nd city, and this has to be the ivory/pigs one (until someone proves it different).
Simply, the cows/clams city will not have the necessary production for the Oracle. In fact, it became decent after IW and workshops.
Remember we can't chop, we don't know BW.

Now, WT you're a great player.
Try some test and tell us your impressions.
Please bear in mind that the capitol will be a production monster, not a science center.

And no, 4 cities - so close - don't ruine our economy: i could run 70% science in break-even. But just look at this save (i hope it's the right one, can't verify now - it should be with 4 cities, in anarchy).

BTW forget the GLH, we'll never manage it without stone.

WastinTime · Sep 23, 2008

I guess I already voted for plan A (no head exploding).

The cow/clam city can produce settlers/workers at size 2. Capitol does oracle.

The GLH doesn't need stone. We can get it, probably also in the capitol. That would give us merchants/prophets there.

Not sure about the production monster. I don't see the logic in having our Palace/gold/bureau city go overboard on production. Of course it will produce nicely with Bureau, but no need to specialize it for hammers.

I'm running some tests, but I thought you guys had hammered out plan A quite nicely. Not sure I can improve on that.

berserks01 · Sep 23, 2008

BLubmuz said:
Confucianism will ALWAYS been founded in the 2nd city, and this has to be the ivory/pigs one (until someone proves it different).

I thought religion always/usually found in the city with the lowest pop. Well, at least I thought I remember reading that somewhere in this forum ....

BLubmuz · Sep 23, 2008

I think the best thing to do is continue play after both attempts to choose which can be better in the long term.

Plan A
pro: Oracle faster and safer - Academy in Capital
cons: capital GP polluted, but we need that to build the pyramids

Plan B
pro: more cities and some infrastructure built roughly in the same time
cons: no Academy, Oracle at risk

Note that both plans are aiming to a CS sling.
Changing objective will put us to reconsider everything.

The save of plan A
In this way you can easily compare both games and decide which one seems better in the long term.

More opinions wanted, first of all: do we agree for the CS sling, now that we've proven it's doable?

My mistake, GLH needs nothing. Still tough.

Edit:
votes:
1) CS sling
1a) plan A
1b) plan B
2) MC sling - plan to be defined

WastinTime · Sep 23, 2008

I'm going to try to work on Plan B and see if it can be done without any body parts exploding. I'd like to have the Pig City = Prophet city. Now that you tell me Confu has to go there, it sounds even better.

WastinTime · Sep 23, 2008

BLubmuz said:
Plan B means:
after writing research sailing-Myst-masonry (you gain some beaker researching Myst before masonry)
first settler will go to ivory/pigs
2nd on marble
if we decide to follow this plan, we can work on the test to look for improvements.

I tried a Plan B. I got Math on t71, Oracle on t73. I like it.

Oh, and academy on t69.

SGOTM 08 - Fifth Element

HoF Quattromaster

In the foetal position

Emperor

Obviously Very Confused

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

Obviously Very Confused

Deity

The Allfather

Deity

Deity

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

Obviously Very Confused

HoF Quattromaster

Deity

Deity

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