SGOTM 09 - Xteam

Ok. I tried the chop/whip/overflow method, and I wound up a little better except that the oracle slipped from turn 42 in my previous attempt to turn 44. I was one worker-turn short of getting the last forest chopped on turn 43. On the plus side, I wound up with larger cities (size 5, size 4, size 1 vs size 3, size 3, size 1) and I have 44 hammers stored in stonehenge that could cashed eventually. On the minus side, I chopped more forests. The 42 turn oracle only had 2 chops total.

G22
 
Ok. I've had another shot at it. This time, I got the Oracle in Marble City on turn 41 and then played two more turns.

City sizes on turn 43 were 5, 2, 1. We have a settler half built, and 38 hammers stored in stonehenge.

Athens is four turns from a library. Is that fast enough?
[edit: so i guess we'll have the library available to use on turn 47, and oracle came in on turn 41. good enough?]

A total of three forests were chopped, two by marble city, and 1 south of athens.

We have researched:
Myst > Med > Priesthood > Masonry > Writing
We are currently researching wheel, with 2 turns left.

Here are the gory details:

Spoiler :
Turn 22
Triple revolt, this turn in anarchy.
Settler NE-N, heading to 1E of copper.

Turn 23
Out of anarchy.
Settler N to his site, 1E of copper.
Scout 1E into forest.

Set research to 0% for one turn.

Worker A finishes the windmill.

Athens continues working two corn, worker in 4 turns.

Turn 24
Set research back to 100%.
Worker A moves to the hill 1N of Athens for another windmill.

BizarroSparta is founded 1E of copper. It works a corn and starts a workboat. Growth in 3.

Athens works a corn and the windmill. Worker goes from 3 turns to 4 when we move from the corn to the windmill.

The scout fortifies himself in the forest.

Turn 25
Worker A starts windmilling.

Turn 26
Hit enter.

Turn 27
Mysticism comes in. Meditation next, 5 turns.
Sparta grows to size 2 and could whip its workboat. But if it whips this turn, it takes two turns to grow to size 2 again. Better to whip next turn, I think. We reach size 2 again at the same time, and we'll have more overflow hammers this way. Work corn and forest.

Turn 28
Sparta whips its workboat. Continue working the corn, growth back to size 2 in 1 turn.
Athens finishes Worker B and resumes its warrior. Continue working corn and windmill. Warrior in 1 turn, growth in 3.

Worker B moves 1S of Athens into the forest. He'll start chopping next turn.
Worker A has finished his windmill.

Turn 29
Hammy and Joao adopt slavery.

Sparta grows to size 2 and finishes its workboat. Workboat nets the fish. Sparta works fish and corn. Starts a settler, 6 turns.

Athens finishes warrior Alex. It starts another warrior, 2 turns. We'll try the chop/whip next turn if I've timed it right.

Worker B puts in 1 turn of chopping, 1S of Athens.
Worker A moves into that same tile this turn to help next.

Alex moves NW out of Athens. He'll go scout and secure the marble area.

Turn 30
Alex moves NW again.

Worker A chops.
Worker B chops.
Forest is removed, 13 hammers to Athens.
Athens 1-pop whips, down to size 1. Warrior goes from 8/10 to 33/10.
After the whip it's working the corn for a total of 13(chop) + 1(city center tile) pre-bonus hammers. The bonus is 25%, so working a windmill instead of the corn gets us to 16 pre-bonus hammers, and we get an extra 1 hammer bonus. (That is, the windmill is effectively worth three hammers for us, not two.) I can't pass that up, so we work the windmill instead of the corn with our 1 population. We grow next turn either way.

We have 3 gold in the bank, -1gpt at 100%, as I hit enter...

Turn 31
It worked! Now we have 35 gold in the bank.

Athens grows to size 2 and finishes Warrior Bill. It works a corn and a windmill. It starts a worker to catch the 8 overflow hammers. We'll switch to a warrior (or something) next turn to get growing again.

Whipping Sparta's settler is not possible yet.

Bill leaves Athens W.
Alex moves NW.
Workers A and B move SW onto a grass hill.

Turn 32
Meditation comes in. Priesthood next, 3 turns.
Bill moves SW.
Alex moves SW.
Workers A and B start windmilling their hill.

Athens switches to a 4-turn warrior, with growth in 3 turns.

Turn 33
Alex moves W into the forest NNW of marble.
Bill moves W onto a plains hill SE of marble.

Turn 34
Alex stays put in his forest.
Bill moves NW onto the marble.
Workers A and B move W-NW onto the plains hill SE of the marble.

Turn 35
Priesthood is in. Masonry next, 3 turns.
Workers A and B start mining the plains hill.
Alex holds his position, NNW of marble.
Bill moves 1W into a forest, too, 1W of marble.

Athens grows to size 3. Works 2 windmills and corn. Growth in 3, warrior in 1.

Sparta finishes settler. Starts a worker, 4 turns.

Settler moves W-SW, heading towards marble.

Turn 36
Settler moves SW.

Athens finishes Warrior Calvin. Starts stonehenge, 16 turns. Will switch to worker after growth in 2 turns.
Calvin stays home to garrison Athens.

Bill and Alex report that all is quiet on the western front.

Workers A and B have finished their mine. Worker B still has moves left. He moves into Bill's tile, 1W of marble.

Turn 37

Worker A moves to the forest 1N of marble.
Worker B starts chopping.
The settler moves onto the marble.

Turn 38
Masonry comes in. Writing next, 5 turns.
Marble City founded. Work the mined hill. Oracle in 9 turns, nominally.

Worker A starts chopping.
Worker B continues chopping.

Athens has grown to size 4. Works 3 windmills and a corn. Switches from stonehenge back to the partially completed worker, 17/40 hammers done already. 2 turns left on the worker.
Stonehenge is storing 14 hammers for us now.

Turn 39
Sparta finishes Worker C. Starts a settler, 7 turns. May consider switching to a warrior once copper mine comes in.
Worker C starts mining the copper.

Worker B finishes his chop.

Turn 40
Athens finishes Worker D. Resumes stonehenge. Growth in 3.
Worker D moves 1S and starts a watermill.

Worker A continues chopping.
Worker B moves into Worker A's tile to help chop next turn, but I don't think A really needs the help. (Still, not much better for B to do.)

Turn 41
Worker A finishes his chop.

Marble City's cultural radius expands. The auto-governor is clearly not on the same page as we are, and he decides to work the sheep instead of the mined hill, delaying oracle from 1 turn to 2. I go back to working the mined hill, and oracle is in 1 turn again.

Worker B moves 2E into forest. He's heading for the shared forest tile to preserve it.

Turn 42
Oracle finished on turn 41. We get electricity on turn 42.

Worker A has little to do. He moves 2E into the forest.
Worker B moves NE into the shared forest tile.

Bill moves into Corinth to garrison it.
Alex pulls back inside our culture, 1S onto a hill.
Worker C is done with his copper mine. He moves SW into the shared forest tile.

Marble City works the sheep instead of the mined hill and starts a warrior. 4 turns for warrior, with growth in 7 turns.

Sparta switches to warrior, working copper and corn, 2 turns, with growth in 3.

Turn 43
Writing comes in. Wheel next, 2 turns.

Workers B and C start preserving the forest.
Worker A moves to join them next turn.

Athens grows to size 5. Switches from stonehenge (38 hammers there now) to library, 4 turns, with growth in 4. It's at its happy cap, but the preserve will increase it so we'll be ok.
Also, it's working a plains forest tile, at least until the watermill finishes.

 

Attachments

Athens is four turns from a library. Is that fast enough?

That's more than fast enough. A Prophet from Oracle takes 17 turns. A GS from two scientists takes only 6 turns. And if two GPs are due on the same turn, the city built earlier will get it. So it's not a problem to get Wheel, Pottery, and AH before Writing if it is optimal for development.

I see you're whipping Sparta's workboat and building a settler at Pop2. I wonder, now that we have copper in Sparta, if it isn't better to send the worker straight to the copper after the first windmill, finish the copper mine as Sparta hits Pop2, and let Sparta complete the workboat with hammers from the mine. It only takes two turns longer, and by then Sparta is at Pop3, working three strong tiles. I also wonder whether building a settler straight away is better than building a worker there first. I notice you only have 4 workers at turn 43. I think we want to target 1.5-2 workers per city.

As for Athens, I've been looking to get it working 5 strong tiles quickly - 1 corn and 4 windmills. I timed growth to coincide with the completion of a windmill, using the second corn when needed. So I chopped the forest hill 2E of Athens, hammers going into a worker (the 3rd one from Athens), and then built a windmill there.

I think the goal for these next 20 or so turns should be to maximize development (population, improvements, technology) while getting Oracle by a safe date. Getting it several turns before the safe date while sacraficing development is probably not optimal (unless the safe date is actually several turns before what I think it is :mischief:).
 
Do I understand that Stonehenge will probably not be built because it is already obsolete and therefore it is a waste to sink hammers into it?
 
The AI still build it.

Also, Airships are awesome.
Expensive at this stage, but awesome none-the-less.

As far as I can tell, if you run a surveillance mission with an airship to defog some tiles, barbs cannot spawn from those tiles for 1 turn. With a few airships, one can fogbust large areas around ones territory. Running the surveillance mission to a hill or mountain tile exposes more land. You can also land them in AI cities if you have open borders, and use them to explore the continent quickly, and perhaps meet AI off continent.
 
Came home early and had time to do a single test. We may have underestimated the value of roading a few strategic tiles. I researched Wheel-Myst-Priest-Masonry-AH and built the road connecting Athens and Sparta fast. 1st road is worth 2gpt I also roaded the tile SW of Athens so that Marble city can be founded the turn after the settler completes in Athens. Result seems to be faster tech, Oracle built and Pottery due in one turn without any gold from hammer overflow.

Here is the save: Early road

One thing that did worry me is the barb archer lurking around the Marble City. If he had moved towards the city my lone warrior would have been in trouble. Does anyone know for how long the barbs will stay outside of our cultural borders?
 

Attachments

I think the goal for these next 20 or so turns should be to maximize development (population, improvements, technology) while getting Oracle by a safe date. Getting it several turns before the safe date while sacraficing development is probably not optimal (unless the safe date is actually several turns before what I think it is :mischief:).
Sure.

The down side to the marble city is having it at all. It's ugly there.
 
"Does anyone know for how long the barbs will stay outside of our cultural borders?" 'Til 2000BC. My experience is that, before 2000, barbs will immediately exit your city's borders if you found city next to a barb. Of course, lttle of my experience is with BTS.
 
One thing that did worry me is the barb archer lurking around the Marble City. If he had moved towards the city my lone warrior would have been in trouble. Does anyone know for how long the barbs will stay outside of our cultural borders?

Barbs will enter borders starting at turn 45.
 
ShannonCT said:
Barbs will enter borders starting at turn 45.

So perhaps we need to connect copper and have a phalanx ready for T45? I guess 3 warriors could handle a single archer but multiple barbs would be problematic. Perhaps a reason to push out an extra warrior or two while we can instead of putting hammers in SH.

Grover22 said:
The down side to the marble city is having it at all. It's ugly there.

It's better than it looks. With sheep pastured and windmills on the hills it will be decent.
 
So perhaps we need to connect copper and have a phalanx ready for T45? I guess 3 warriors could handle a single archer but multiple barbs would be problematic. Perhaps a reason to push out an extra warrior or two while we can instead of putting hammers in SH.
Or an Airship? It can be used to Scout over water and knock off some HP's of the Barb Axe that will eventually show up unexpected. :D
 
Here's my plan for the turn set:

Tech: Wheel-Myst-Med-Priest-Masonry-Pottery-Writing

Builds:
Athens: Warriors-switch Worker-finish warrior-worker-warrior-settler-phalanx-granary
Piraeus: Wb-warrior-warrior-worker-warrior-worker-settler
Delphi: Oracle

Worker actions:
Build Wmill
Build road connecting Athens and Piraeus
Build copper mine
Chop grassland hill and build Wmill (Try and time to yield some gold)
Connect copper
Build 4th Wmill
Chop Oracle
Complete road to Delphi

Military units:
1st warrior out of Athens and 2nd warrior out of Piraeus go scouting/fog busting around Marble.

Here's a test save corresponding to this strategy: Early road + Phalanx

The underlying principle is to maximize beakers and get us fast to Pottery and Writing (due in 3 turns). Then we can use the whip a bit more to get granaries and libraries for multiplying growth and beakers.

I think the Airship is too expensive (costs more than 5 warriors) at this early stage of the game considering that it is not able to defend or kill. I think we can rely on our fog busting warriors and the phalanx to deal with the barbs. Remember, that the barbs are not raging so they will not arrive in larger numbers than usual on Monarch. Settlers, Granaries and Libraries are much better investments at this stage.

I am busy Sunday evening and leaving for Paris Monday morning so I plan to play either Saturday evening or Sunday afternoon. Please comment before that.
 

Attachments

Fred's save has us with a larger population and a phalanx in hand over Grover's save. If we position the phalanx along the road we could run it into whatever city is threatened by the first barb.

The goal during Fred's set is obviously getting the Oracle completed, but should we position our next settler next to several forest for the sole purpose of trying to chop the Great Wall? Then we would not have to worry about any barbs and can concentrate on rexing.
 
Like the plan. :goodjob:

A couple of things:
Would it be possible to chop a different forest between Marble City and our Capital? The reason is the ability to build a Forest Preserve that benefits both cities and gives them each a :). As we plan to settle east of the copper, we have limited ourselves to one common forest tile. It would be nice to have at least one more?

I think the Airship is too expensive (costs more than 5 warriors) at this early stage of the game considering that it is not able to defend or kill. I think we can rely on our fog busting warriors and the phalanx to deal with the barbs. Remember, that the barbs are not raging so they will not arrive in larger numbers than usual on Monarch. Settlers, Granaries and Libraries are much better investments at this stage.
Perhaps it is? I would sure like to know what is going on in that Barb City over yonder? Will we need to take it out before something nasty comes our way or...? We may find that we need Sailing, and rather soon? ;)

And the island to our east may hold something we need that we'll not know about until we recon it. I suppose we can wait until the next turn set, but I don't wish to delay it too long... :cringe:
 
Good luck!
 
Fred has done a superb job of maximizing research (wow, not sure how he did this) and road building, all without excessive chopping. On the other hand, his test does not position us to grow as quickly as may be possible. Compare SCT's test to Fred's and note that SCT has two forest preserves under construction, a settler already available, and an improved watermill tile (not to mention an airship essentially completed). Because he's teched so well, Fred is already constructing a granary, but will it be immediately useful upon completion?

Perhaps there is a compromised betweeen the two approaches: a little less road building and a bit more tile improvement. Be nice to have SCT's early settler and airship (not at all sure it's too expensive -- knowledge is often power in Civ) too, even at the cost of another chop.

Would like some discussion on whether a forest preserve between capital and Marbletown is critical. Will Marbletown grow enough, soon enough (before we have other happiness assets) to make such a preserve helpful?
 
Cactus Pete said:
Fred has done a superb job of maximizing research (wow, not sure how he did this) and road building, all without excessive chopping. On the other hand, his test does not position us to grow as quickly as may be possible. Compare SCT's test to Fred's and note that SCT has two forest preserves under construction, a settler already available, and an improved watermill tile (not to mention an airship essentially completed). Because he's teched so well, Fred is already constructing a granary, but will it be immediately useful upon completion?

There is a trade off between hammers and gold. We could get more hammers by using the whip more. My reasoning is that we postpone whipping until we have some highly usefull multiplier building we can whip such as granaries and libraries. In the test save the granary can be whipped next turn and Athens can regrow to size 8-9 during the next 10 turns. Settler can also be whipped next turn followed by granary and library in Piraeus.

Cactus Pete said:
Perhaps there is a compromised betweeen the two approaches: a little less road building and a bit more tile improvement. Be nice to have SCT's early settler and airship (not at all sure it's too expensive -- knowledge is often power in Civ) too, even at the cost of another chop.

The road between Athens and Piraeus is essential to speed worker movement and get extra 2gpt. The road to Delphi could be postponed a few turns in favor of chopping a space for a watermill. In SCT's save I would rather have a phalanx than an airship. Even though the settler is ready he can't settle because we have no proper escort and/or city defender should a barb archer appear (very likely). An airship costs 4 chops not one. I think the likelihood that it will provide essential information is low at the moment given that it can only be used to scout 8 tiles from our existing cities.

Cactus Pete said:
Would like some discussion on whether a forest preserve between capital and Marbletown is critical. Will Marbletown grow enough, soon enough (before we have other happiness assets) to make such a preserve helpful?

Delphi (Marbletown) will stagnate at size 5 working sheep and 4 windmills. A single shared forest preserve would be nice, but i don't think more are required. I can probably shuffle workers and chop one of the forests further west.
 
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