SGOTM 09 - Xteam

[PaulisKhan]

3 TURN TURNSET PLAN


Turn 46
Deposit 40 hammers (including overflow from phalanx)+riverside chop into Athens library, completing it.

IBT: Grow to pop 5 in both athens and pyraeus (unhappy)

Turn 47
Athen/Piraeus forest preserve complete, removing unhappiness
Deposit hammers into Airship into Athens.
2 pop whip library in Pireaus, down to pop 3.

IBT: regrow pireaus to pop 4

Turn 48: Run two scientists in Pireaus
Deposit hammers into airship in athens

Unit moves:
Send Pireaus settler west (cautiously)
Send Delphi phalanx west to clear path for settler (I should have moved him at the end of turn 45)
Send Athens phalanx to Delphi
Western warrior scouts

Questions: would we get more overflow into the airship from the athens library chop if we deposit more build hammers into the Athens library first? ie if we manual build the library to within a few turns of completion will we get the 1.5x library multiplier on the chop overflow into the Airship the next turn?
If so, would this outweigh the cost of delaying the library one turn? (I'm guessing not, but it could be a way to gain additional multipliers on our chops for other cities).

Open borders with Joao and Ham?

Connect the road from Pireaus to Delphi with the 2 workers once they finish the forest preserve, or get them building a new forest preserve/watermill for Athens?

Do I bother roading the sheep yet or do I get those workers onto the Delphi plains hill for a windmill?

-edit- We run out of gold in 3 turns.
Have included the turn 46 save from earlier when I moved the warrior to scout.

 

[Cactus Pete]

3 TURN TURNSET PLAN

Unit moves:
Send Pireaus settler west (cautiously)
Send Delphi phalanx west to clear path for settler (I should have moved him at the end of turn 45)
Send Athens phalanx to Delphi
Western warrior scouts Might want to pause if he reveals resources creating a question as to where to settle.

Questions: would we get more overflow into the airship from the athens library chop if we deposit more build hammers into the Athens library first? ie if we manual build the library to within a few turns of completion will we get the 1.5x library multiplier on the chop overflow into the Airship the next turn?
If so, would this outweigh the cost of delaying the library one turn? (I'm guessing not, but it could be a way to gain additional multipliers on our chops for other cities). My guess is the same as yours. Hope someone else can confirm.

Open borders with Joao and Ham? Yes.

Connect the road from Pireaus to Delphi with the 2 workers once they finish the forest preserve, or get them building a new forest preserve/watermill for Athens? Connect -- the road saves movement cost for both and partially mitigates the turn lost.

Do I bother roading the sheep yet or do I get those workers onto the Delphi plains hill for a windmill? We don't need the health but will eventually be able to trade the sheep, so I'd build the road with one worker (probably the used one).

-edit- We run out of gold in 3 turns.
Have included the turn 46 save from earlier when I moved the warrior to scout.

First use of airship to help protect settler.

 

[leif erikson]

Apologies for my tardiness in answering. I was in the middle of play testing a new project and needed to finish.

Questions: would we get more overflow into the airship from the athens library chop if we deposit more build hammers into the Athens library first? ie if we manual build the library to within a few turns of completion will we get the 1.5x library multiplier on the chop overflow into the Airship the next turn?
If so, would this outweigh the cost of delaying the library one turn? (I'm guessing not, but it could be a way to gain additional multipliers on our chops for other cities).

-edit- We run out of gold in 3 turns.

I think this may be a good idea in a couple of ways. I think SCT suggested setting research to 0% until the Library was completed. Doing so adds +26 GPT. The benefit to us, in two turns time, is that we also should have the Library in Pireus online and ready, so we should get even more out of that Gold by doing this. SCT is better able to calculate the trade off, but it seems like a pretty good deal on the back of my envelope.

Open borders with Joao and Ham?

Yes. We need to have a look inside Hammi's borders for sure. I'd like to get a look at Joao's too, and then head up to watch for any Joao Settlers heading north.

Connect the road from Pireaus to Delphi with the 2 workers once they finish the forest preserve, or get them building a new forest preserve/watermill for Athens?

I think you should connect the road. I like SCT's suggestion:

1) The active worker on the sheep could go to the plains hill next to Delphi, build a windmill, and then go to the cows in time for our 4th city's border pop.

2) The spent worker on the sheep can go help with a watermill south of Athens next turn, and then preserve the roaded plains forest next to Athens.

Do I bother roading the sheep yet or do I get those workers onto the Delphi plains hill for a windmill?

No need atm. Cities have loads of

 

[leif erikson]

Turn 47
Athen/Piraeus forest preserve complete, removing unhappiness
Deposit hammers into Airship into Athens.
2 pop whip library in Pireaus, down to pop 3.

I just ran this sequence in the test game and it doesn't work out. If you pop-rush with 3-turns left in the Library, it only requires one pop point, not 2. So, you get a Library and an unhappy city. Neither can you pop-rush on turn 46, as the game says that it requires three pop points and we have only two available.

 

[leif erikson]

Triple Post! But I wanted to make sure you'd see this.

To make it work, you could move the citizen from working the Copper tile to the Lake Tile for +2 commerce (Gold at 0% research) and then the next turn will cost 2 pop points with the whip. The overflow in Pireus was 23 hammers, so a Worker in 2 turns and in Athens, the overflow was 10 hammers, the Airship in 5 turns. With the two Libraries on line and research to 100%, CoL's will be dure in 8 turns with 72 Gold in the Treasury and -6 GPT. That gives us about 11 or 12 turns at 100%, minus whatever when we found our 4th city.

EDIT - See you in the morning, off to count sheep!

 

[PaulisKhan]

Thanks for the help Leif =)

I'll see if I can tidy that up, will need to make sure that my practice save is up to date properly.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I'll see if I can tidy that up, will need to make sure that my practice save is up to date properly.

I think SCT made some changes to my test save in order to make it match better with the real game. Perhaps check if you are using his save?

Questions: would we get more overflow into the airship from the athens library chop if we deposit more build hammers into the Athens library first? ie if we manual build the library to within a few turns of completion will we get the 1.5x library multiplier on the chop overflow into the Airship the next turn?

I tried this and it doesn't work as far as I can see. The 100% bonus for building library does not apply to hammer overflow. So don't delay the library build. Setting research to zero for a turn may be a good idea so that we can have 100% reserach for a longer time after the libraries are built (see leifs explanation on how to reduce hammers in Piraeus for a single turn to be able to pop rush 2 pop next turn).

EDIT: I wouldn't spend time now to connect the sheep. We can always come back and do it when it's needed.

 

[PaulisKhan]

I just ran this sequence in the test game and it doesn't work out. If you pop-rush with 3-turns left in the Library, it only requires one pop point, not 2. So, you get a Library and an unhappy city.

I rechecked it, the 1 pop whip is fine as we gain a happiness from the forest preserve in two turn to compensate the unhapiness from the whip. We don't need to work a suboptimal tile, there's just a 1 turn delay until the preserve to come online so we can run two scientists.

Fred: Doh! I'm not accustomed to maximising my whips so I'm not familiar with the details. I'll just let the library complete this turn when the worker finishes the chop.

personal reminders:
Set research to zero until both libraries are finished
Open borders with the others.

I think I'm ready to play a couple of turns. Have taken the worker jobs to heart. Will post the save soon.

 

[Frederiksberg]

On turn 47 Pyraeus will be pop 5 and have 24/60 hammers in the library. Is that a 2 pop whip to complete?

It then takes 2 turns to regrow to 4, not one turn as I said (forgot that the bin will be empty after the growth to pop 5)

I don't think so. I believe one pop yields 20 hammers and with 100% bonus it's 40 hammers. So there must be less than 60-40=20 hammers deposited in order for this to be a 2 pop whip. So maybe leif was wrong? What if you work Corn,Corn,fish,lake in Piraeus and 4 windmills in Athens?

 

[leif erikson]

I don't think so. I believe one pop yields 20 hammers and with 100% bonus it's 40 hammers. So there must be less than 60-40=20 hammers deposited in order for this to be a 2 pop whip. So maybe leif was wrong? What if you work Corn,Corn,fish,lake in Piraeus and 4 windmills in Athens?

I just called up the test game again. You're numbers are correct. Whip = 20 hammers, doubled due to production speed of Library, so the whip yields 40 hammers. 24+40=64, only one pop-point required.

Working the Lake, you get 16 hammers on turn one and then need 44 to complete, or two citizens.

If the test save is correct, then ...

 

[Frederiksberg]

I just called up the test game again. You're numbers are correct. Whip = 20 hammers, doubled due to production speed of Library, so the whip yields 40 hammers. 24+40=64, only one pop-point required.

Working the Lake, you get 16 hammers on turn one and then need 44 to complete, or two citizens.

If the test save is correct, then ...

I had look at the real save and I think your approach will work. As you say we only deposit 16 hammers in the library by switching a citizen from copper to lake.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Played 1 turn and forced to stop by unexpected events.

The plan I used for the pyraeus whip gets us the library, 4 pop and GS the soonest, and didn't have the city stuck in unhappiness at any stage. The whip unhappiness will wear off while we build a worker
The unexpected events came elswhere so I thought it prudent to stop.

-uploading images and save now-

Spoiler :

Western city site, let us discuss placement.

Barb spear shows up to the north. I deliberately didn't move the warrior into the fog in the previous turn because I didn't think there was enough new map to validate the risk, thought it was better to keep warrior as a fogbuster and let Hamm culture bust the rest. Warrior has his movement point free to get out if we decide to retreat him.

. .. .. .. .!!!
I had moved the scout into Joao's land. On the first movement point I saw his settler with archer escorts headed south so I decided to move the second turn in that direction to check the land before heading NE. This appears.
I think I just lost us our scout =(
I really didn't expect to run into that sort of thing in the completely fogbusted south of Joao's land, am very sorry =/

Highly promoted units

 

[Frederiksberg]

Too bad about the scout, but this was really unexpected. It actually looks like those highly promoted barbs have been moved there in the barb galley . We probably need to be very careful when settling coastal cities to the south-east.

I think we should retreat the warrior hopefully drawing the barb spear towards Delphi where our phalanx can easily dispose of him.

Perhaps we should settle 1W of the copper. Farm the two grassland tiles and work those plus 2 windmills and 4 watermills.

EDIT: If we don't care about blocking Hammy we can also settle where the warrior is and work the clam + 3 windmills, 3 watermills and 3 cottaged river tiles.

 

[rrau]

I'm thinking we will need more troops earlier than we usually do .
Maybe best defense is a good offense? Find the barb city and eliminate it? Or at least build us a stack of tiremes and kill their galley.

 

[leif erikson]

PK, when you say unexpected events, you aren't fooling around!

I am really looking forward to that Airship!

The only thing that'll save that Scout is if those units attack Portuguese units?

Looks to me like retreating the Warrior is the best course.

Does the Warrior near the Copper call into question Settling to the west? Is there a more productive site to the south that should be considered? Or, perhaps denying Copper to Hammi is the best course? The best city site appears to be the Hill the Warrior is standing on.

If we start seeing more Barb units like the ones down by Joao, then perhaps we need to get Sailing and build a few Galleys that work in combination with Airships to sink those Barb Galleys before they can drop off units like that? That seems to call us south to settle?

 

[ShannonCT]

Agree with Leif that the forested hill the warrior is standing on is a nice site. We could settle there immediately, or settle at the site to grab copper and cows and settle another city on the hill a little later. Settling 1 east of the copper seems to give a pretty mediocre city. 2 cities seems better to me.

Agree on retreating the warrior. No reason to sacrafice a future MP.

If we lose the scout, no big deal. We already have a good lay of the land, and now that we've revealed Lisbon, we can rebase an airship there and easily scout the rest of Portugal.

It seems that the barb city (cities?) have been given some settled great generals. Still, it's not much to fear if they waste the promotions on GuerillaI/II/III. Even the galleys won't be too hard to deal with when we use airships and the coastal defensive bonus.

 

[ShannonCT]

Suggest PK plays a couple more turns ASAP and gets the settler in position 2E of copper. From there, we can decide whether to settle 1E of copper, or 2W of cows, or on the forested hill. Looks like you'll need that warrior to fogbust for the settler.

 

[PaulisKhan]

It's 1:30 am here but the thread is active so I can stay up and play a couple more turns if you feel there's nothing else that needs to be discussed.

 

[ShannonCT]

I think you should keep playing until you come to some critical juncture.

 

[Frederiksberg]

It's 1:30 am here but the thread is active so I can stay up and play a couple more turns if you feel there's nothing else that needs to be discussed.

If you want, play a couple of more turns as you already planned for them.