SGOTM 10 - Team CFR

[AlanH]

BtS SGOTM 10 - Armageddon

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 10 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

In this, the third BtS SGOTM, Gyathaar wants nuclear devastation. Stalin of Russia starts in the Renaissance era in 1285 AD, in a world with five Aggressive AI civs. He is hell bent on world conquest, BUT he can only capture a city if he nukes it first.

It's a fight to the nuclear death in an Epic speed, Emperor difficulty game on a Small sized Big and Small map. There are no goody huts, no events, no city razing, no city flipping, no Vassals. Only Conquest is enabled.

It's a standard Renaissance start, so you get a lot of techs at the beginning. Cities are created with pop 2 and a few buildings. You start with two settlers, two longbows, one explorer and a worker. The AI start with two settlers, four longbows, two explorers and a worker.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using the new all-singing, all-dancing HoF Mod BUFFY-3.19.001. This HoF Mod version is available now. You can download it here.

If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in version 3.19 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows game on their system.

Timetable
The game will start on Friday, August 7 .

Your start file, and then each submitted Save for your team, will be linked on the Progress and Results Page throughout the game. Please ensure that you only download your own team file.

The finish deadline is December 7 2009. If any team has not finished by this date they will be deemed to have retired, and will not be eligible for any awards.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.



Map Parameters

• Playable Leader/Civ - Stalin of the Russian Empire.
• Traits - Aggressive, Industrious.
• Unique Unit - Cossack (replaces Cavalry)
• Unique Building - Research Institute (replaces Laboratory)
• Renaissance Era start - turn 277, 1285 AD.
• Difficulty - Emperor
• Game Speed - Epic (473 turns)
• World size - Small
• Rivals - Five
• Landform - Big and Small
• Other settings - No city razing, No Culture Flips, No goodie huts, No events, Aggressive AI, No Vassals
• Victory Conditions - Conquest Only

Notes

• Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the Fastest Conquest victory, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. You will drop down the final ranking table* for each city that you capture without nuking it with a direct hit first. A "Capture" is defined as any method of obtaining a city other than by building it yourself using a settler. A "Capture" also includes retrieving a city you originally built but lost.
  
  *The final ranking will sort teams in the following order:
  1. Win, lose or retire. Wins go first. Retirements go last.
  2. For wins, the number of un-nuked cities captured. Zero missed cities go first.
  3. For wins, the finish date.
  4. For losses and retirements, final score will determine their rankings within those categories.
     
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun.

 

[akots]

This time, I'm the first to check in. I guess Lexad will be quite unhappy about that.

Just a friendly reminder to do all discussion here in this thread in English. At least we promised and must give it an honest try. I'll lock the signup thread at CFR website to eliminate temptation so that all posts come here.

Please also note that online chat/Skype discussions are not welcome. It might happen occasionally but please post the log here or if the log is in Russian, please try to post summary in English here as rapidly as possible.

I am in a different time zone, being currently in Houston, so I cannot possibly participate in chats.

 

[Bemep]

there. roll-call in alphabetical order?

yuo can read and write in chat in anybody time, it is not problem

 

[Obormot]

Checking in.

I still don't have 3.19 or BUFFY installed, but will try to do it ASAP. I also didn't think much about the scenario, as I was busy playing BOTM20.

I think we should take our time and do some research to discover all the implications of the late era start and the unusual game goal before playing the first turnset. Playing a test game is probably required, or otherwise we'll have to do too many blind guesses.

 

[Lexad]

Here.

I hope our online expert can share with us their wisdom on Reni start - major teching paths, tech races (fast GS for Edu to win race for Liber?), major tactics.

 

[Lexad]

As for me, I believe we should start warfare soon, to check the expansion of our neighbours and settle cities ourselves. Still, it should be mostly limited for worker-steals, exp-gaining (for heroepic) and blockade.
The techpath is rather short and subject to multiple GS-bombs (Edu, PPress, Astro, SciMeth, Physics, Electro, Fission, Chemistry) - therefore fast NatEpic and Pacifism look as a must at early stage. We might perhaps delay Chemistry to unlock Bio late, which would otherwise prevent from bulbing Electro etc.

We still need strong research, as there are loads of techs with low GS and other GP research prioroties, as Steel, Artillery and Rocketry. Thus - fast 5 cities for Oxford.

Note - factories aren't necessary, but they will speed thing up. Should we put them early ASAP to gain full benefit of cash production, or delay until nukes?

 

[OT4E]

Hey all there!

I have some expirience playing with AI at non-ancient starts and can summary it saying that AI is very stupied. It lacks workers and uses his land very bad. I doubt that map writer could give em solid advantage to fix it.
The only thing I care is tech trading. In renaissance AI has no time to make friendship between each other and I think they wont trade fast because they are greedy at liberalism races, economy and etc. But it looks like a hope more than a ensureness.
We can try to force GS to get something more worth wiith Liberalism than Nationhood or Printing. We can try to at least Constitution.

From the other view, the fastest Oxford decides in such games. We need to slave/chop settlers and it will payback. Settlers are very expensive, because it consists of 2 pop, forge, granary, aqueduct.

About an idea of the game we need to get commandos somehow because it will earn huge ammount during conquesting AI. We have agg trait and need 17 expirience to get it. If we make west point, barracks, vassalage, teo and pentagon we will have 13. We can also steal one general from Facism.
Whats the conclusion? I think we need war early and quite effective war. Is it possible?

Now some words about the economy. We can make some cottages around the cap. I doubt that we need to move it but we will have 1 turn of anarchy to think.
We shalll make no other cottages and force reaserch with Sciensists and Represenation. And we shall have farm all captured cities and use them for slaving. No workshops and maximising of the production is required except may be 2 cities with Ironworks and Heroic epic.

I think we need Great Artist farm in National park, or just a GP farm for golden ages.

 

[hhhawk]

I here.
We need a test save, I can draw it.

 

[Obormot]

As for me, I believe we should start warfare soon, to check the expansion of our neighbours and settle cities ourselves. Still, it should be mostly limited for worker-steals, exp-gaining (for heroepic) and blockade.

The map is Big and Small, and I think it is most likely that we start on the small continent. Maybe we don't have any neighbours at all. But if we do have neighbours, then some limited wars to stifle their developement and let us settle more cities peacefully would be OK. Perhaps we could even use our starting longbows for that task. The AI starts with 4 longbows, but they all have city defense script, so they should stay in their cities and we should be able to steal workers safely.

The techpath is rather short and subject to multiple GS-bombs (Edu, PPress, Astro, SciMeth, Physics, Electro, Fission, Chemistry) - therefore fast NatEpic and Pacifism look as a must at early stage. We might perhaps delay Chemistry to unlock Bio late, which would otherwise prevent from bulbing Electro etc.

The tech path is about twice as long as the beeline to Mass Media in diplo games, and about 1/3 of a space-race win. Why do you want to delay biology? I think we want bio ASAP.

We still need strong research, as there are loads of techs with low GS and other GP research prioroties, as Steel, Artillery and Rocketry. Thus - fast 5 cities for Oxford.

I think our main focus in the early game should be on REXing. A settler still costs 100 hammers, but gives 2 pop, a forge and a granary (& lighthouse if coastal). I think we might want to REX well beyond 5 cities before starting Oxford.

Note - factories aren't necessary, but they will speed thing up. Should we put them early ASAP to gain full benefit of cash production, or delay until nukes?

Biology is also not necessary. But I think we want both biology and assembly line ASAP, and only then beeline nukes.

Now some words about the economy. We can make some cottages around the cap. I doubt that we need to move it but we will have 1 turn of anarchy to think.

At epic speeds revolts are quite expensive. I am not sure, but I think switching all 5 civics will cost something like 4 turns (switching 3 civics costs 2 turns). Bureaucracy is a must, but what other civics to we want to use? Hereditary Rule or stay in despotism till constitution to save a turn? Castes or Slavery? Mercantilism or wait for better economic civics (I think merc is very nice at this stage, an extra citizen may not be very important with big cities, but 2 and 3 is a big differense. But if we use slavery we'll only be able to use engineers before building a library.) Do we need a religion civic?

I think we want to switch at least 3 civics during the first turns, so we'll have 2 turns of walking with the settlers (they are not really free, because we have a worker and will loose worker turns if we don't settle on turn 0, but I think it is OK to walk during these turns). And if we switch more civics, we'll have more time

We may want to delay settling the city at the starting spot even if we don't move the settler, so that our 2nd city becomes the capital, for example the city with 2 gold hills, to take advantage of bureucracy. Then maybe we don't need any cottages.

 

[Lexad]

Perhaps we could even use our starting longbows for that task. The AI starts with 4 longbows, but they all have city defense script, so they should stay in their cities and we should be able to steal workers safely.

Good idea!

The tech path is about twice as long as the beeline to Mass Media in diplo games, and about 1/3 of a space-race win. Why do you want to delay biology? I think we want bio ASAP.

Then cottage economy will pay off, I presume? It does in higher-level diplo. Then Bio is also not that strong. However, we start much closer to Bio and Representation - as well as Demo (emancipation) though, although Bureau with Oxford will surpass it. Interesting options - we need to determine how much off-road loops do we take (factories, bio, repr) before nukes.
I'm not accustomed to Bio - usually I finish earlier, so might be wrong here. Was aiming at GS-bombing the techs leading to Fission, which Bio will prevent.

I think our main focus in the early game should be on REXing.

Yes, but 5 cities is the absolute minimum required. And with Bureau and high-commerce capital (at least 1 commerce resource, sea commerce) Oxford will be huge. Each forest in the capital's BFC gets the Bureau bonus.
I think we should chop settlers actively. Settler production and kicking the AI expansion come hand in hand.

Workers can at least build roads during starting revolts while settlers roam. Serfdom can be a nice alternative to castes and slavery. However, I find castes extremely useful for non-creative starts with several cities - early artist works wonders to city placement. Though we can switch them on after the first wave of settlement and lib+university pop-rushes.

 

[Lexad]

In renaissance AI has no time to make friendship between each other and I think they wont trade fast because they are greedy at liberalism races, economy and etc

Still, most will trade non-monopoly techs at Cautious. We're in a tight lock with Liber, Econ an Taj races from the start. At least, you can win 2nd with 1st

About an idea of the game we need to get commandos somehow because it will earn huge ammount during conquesting AI. We have agg trait and need 17 expirience to get it. If we make west point, barracks, vassalage, teo and pentagon we will have 13. We can also steal one general from Facism.
Whats the conclusion? I think we need war early and quite effective war. Is it possible?

I think that our early conquest will be finishing first couple of AI we've crippled at the start, and here regular units will suffice. Capturing seaside cities is also easy. As for inland, I think paratroopers should do the trick - however, if we manage to get commandos in the process, they will come handy. But targeting them seems like an overinvestment - researching techs and building wonders we don't necessarily need.

What's the range of a nuke - 1 square, 2? Is the damage the same in the range? Can we just pick the nuked cities with cossacks/tanks, or we need a 3-moving general tanks to do the trick? Helicopters would be nice for finishing the defenders, but they come online sooooo late.

I also think that capital should be commerce-oriented for maximum Bureau output.

With a late start, we might even find a place with enough forest tiles untouched to utilize National Park. This would make Bio much more attractive. Make it a GP factory then.

One more thought on early civics: mercantilism will rule early while we steal workers from immediate neighbours and utilize free artist to grow borders or free scientist to generate
faster GS.

I here.
We need a test save, I can draw it.

That would be most useful

 

[Lexad]

Please, note: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8322142&postcount=5

That means we're not getting a religion on turn 6 and have to hope on spreading from others.

 

[Obormot]

Then cottage economy will pay off, I presume? It does in higher-level diplo. Then Bio is also not that strong. However, we start much closer to Bio and Representation - as well as Demo (emancipation) though, although Bureau with Oxford will surpass it. Interesting options - we need to determine how much off-road loops do we take (factories, bio, repr) before nukes.
I'm not accustomed to Bio - usually I finish earlier, so might be wrong here. Was aiming at GS-bombing the techs leading to Fission, which Bio will prevent.

Fission is not enough to build nukes, we also need rocketry. The sidetracks are not very expensive compared to the path to fission + rocketry.

Beelining fission & rocketry is about 60K beakers.
Adding education costs 3K.
Adding constitution costs 6K (also adds nationalism for Tadj)
Adding biology costs 5K.
Adding assembly line costs 16K (also gets the free GM from economics, trade route from corporations and levees from steam power).

Education, constitution and biology is a must IMO. We may consider skipping assembly line. We may then build Manhattan while researching rocketry, and then whip nukes as OT4E said. Tactical nuke costs 225 hammers 337 on epic, that is 6 population with a forge, not too expensive. The hammer economy route looks a bit better to me though.

 

[Obormot]

Please, note: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8322142&postcount=5

That means we're not getting a religion on turn 6 and have to hope on spreading from others.

The barbs get 1 religion, so that there are 6 religions left for 6 civs. This way every team should get exactly one religion. So our 2nd city will expand borders automaticaly. Then if we use organsied religion we can expand borders of later cities with missionaries. With slavery we can also whip a monument immidately or a library rather quickly, because we start with 2 pop and a forge. Slavery and organaised religion combo should be the best for fast Oxford as usual.

 

[Lexad]

Just came from the sea - misread the notice, thought we do not get one

As for side-tracking (damn, oilservices again):
- Edu is a no-brainer, as well as Nat-m and Repr
- Bio looks like an easy task for analysis and, with its cost, is likely to join the club
- factories however are a heavier burden. Do we need many nukes for 5 opponents? Can we be happy with Forge-Heroepic-Bureau-Police State(?) combo?

This brings to the mind another priority - by all means, kill the settlers. It will cost in the end at least 1 nuke less, not to mention other fees. This calls for cossack squads lurking at the borders and frigates/privateers killing lonely galleys/galleons.

Btw, what do we plan to use Liber for? And do we plan to grow GEngineer as a first GP for Taj? Most civs will be running smiths and will get GEs, and Philo leaders wil make it faster than us. If there are culture-lovers (Gandhi, Hatty, Liz), they will highly likely pick Nat-m as their first research target, and then Taj is lost for sure.

Tested - switching both 3 and 4 civics at once costs the same 2 turns.

 

[Obormot]

What's the range of a nuke - 1 square, 2? Is the damage the same in the range? Can we just pick the nuked cities with cossacks/tanks, or we need a 3-moving general tanks to do the trick? Helicopters would be nice for finishing the defenders, but they come online sooooo late.

I think we need some testing to figure out how exactly nuking works. I never used nukes before. And there are many other unknowns. We should be able to outtech them, but by how much? They will probably have rifles, but maybe even more advanced units. But paratroopers do look like a nice unit to finish off the defenders after nuking, and fascism is only slightly more expensive then military tradition.

 

[Obormot]

- factories however are a heavier burden. Do we need many nukes for 5 opponents? Can we be happy with Forge-Heroepic-Bureau-Police State(?) combo?

If we skip assembly line, then we'll also skip fascism (police state). But you do have a point. With biology we can whip nukes for 6 pop and regrow rather fast, so assembly line is not a must. But on the other hand, we have cheap factories and coal plants, so we can setup a hammer economy rather quickly, and that will help us with research too. And don't forget the expensive Manhattan project.

EDIT: industrious only gives cheap forges, which we have already. So both of our traits are rather useless in this game.

 

[Lexad]

Warning: I won't be able to actively test anything until I return to Moscow in a week - the game proves to be too much of a stress for my local old notebook, it loses power every 10 minutes or so. Still going to participate in qualitative part of the discussion.

Edit: does Indu apply to Mhattan? Can we build Pyrs in Reni?

 

[Lexad]

Developing kill-the-settlers idea - until rifles, settlers are likely to be escorted by 2 lbows (knights if we allow AI to build enough spare to go on defender_AI, and some muskets later). This can be intercepted with ease by 2-3 maces/knights or even by 4 horse archers (if we do not connect iron and have horses) - not a heavy investment, but extremely well-paying. I recommend considering devoting one squad for each neighboring civ and more for more developed further-located civs. Captured worker comes as a small bonus. We can go with kill-ceasefire routine for ages.

 

[Obormot]

We cannot build anicent or classical wonders. So no Pyramids. We can build medieval wonders, but none of them seems to be very usefull.