SGOTM 10 - Xteam

[ShannonCT]

Galley, Knight, worker, then workboats now planned for HC.

If we settled island city just SE of the iron, instead of on it, then we could settle the white city 2W of the beaver and have a bit better city sooner .

How is 2W of the beaver a better city?

 

[Cactus Pete]

How is 2W of the beaver a better city?

Has forests to chop for workboats, will provide additional furs for trading sooner, not nearly so much at the mercy of G's cities expanding further, and long term does not overlap with Bombay. It does invite G to settle south of Delhi. Not sure how much a negative that is.

 

[Frederiksberg]

G's culture would stifle this city badly.

Please explain what you mean. Which tiles are you afraid to loose? And how is it worse in contrast to the White city?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Please explain what you mean. Which tiles are you afraid to loose? And how is it worse in contrast to the White city?

The white city has growth potential if irrigation is built (farmed) to the grassland tiles to the north. Those tiles would come under G's control if his cities expand (at least that is what has happened to Moscow, which has a palace). Irrigation of the alternative city site 2W of beaver would depend on farming 2 plains tiles that are not in jeopardy from expansion, plus the grassland tile that is also within HC's fat cross.

 

[leif erikson]

In reading through the discussion thus far, I do not seem to see if anything was decided regarding building a city north of Delhi near the Iron? If we want to build this, it should be soon, shouldn't it?

I think the White city, as laid out by SCT, is very marginal. The only encouraging reason to place it there is that there is no culture flipping and it takes up enough space that we would only have one crappy city.

I do not know how many cities we wish to build. I see the merit in CP's point concerning moving white city SE. Attached below are three screenies with a second look at city layout.

It's not taking him that's hard. It's leaving him behind.

Sounds like the voice of experience, and are you ever correct.
This morning was worse...

 

[Frederiksberg]

In reading through the discussion thus far, I do not seem to see if anything was decided regarding building a city north of Delhi near the Iron? If we want to build this, it should be soon, shouldn't it?

I agree and I think that CP misunderstood my last post. What I'm arguing is that the White city probably shouldn't be settled and that we should consider the much better city location between iron and cows north of Delhi before the White.

 

[Cactus Pete]

In reading through the discussion thus far, I do not seem to see if anything was decided regarding building a city north of Delhi near the Iron? If we want to build this, it should be soon, shouldn't it? Because it has few land tiles (minimal hammers) and will probably be compromised by Delhi expansion, would argue that this site is not a priority; moreover, G will probably settle there first, so leaving it available has some value. (Is knowing that we'll get it eventually after war begins a consideration?) If it stays available, then perhaps we re-consider.

I think the White city, as laid out by SCT, is very marginal. The only encouraging reason to place it there is that there is no culture flipping and it takes up enough space that we would only have one crappy city. I do not know how many cities we wish to build. I see the merit in CP's point concerning moving white city SE. Attached below are three screenies with a second look at city layout. Not having played a test to nuclear weapons, I don't have any feel for the value of these seemingly 'crappy' cities. Relying on others to hash this out.


Sounds like the voice of experience, and are you ever correct.
This morning was worse...

Necessary evil. Glad you're home safely and back on the thread.

 

[leif erikson]

Because it has few land tiles (minimal hammers) and will probably be compromised by Delhi expansion, would argue that this site is not a priority; moreover, G will probably settle there first, so leaving it available has some value. (Is knowing that we'll get it eventually after war begins a consideration?) If it stays available, then perhaps we re-consider.

My thought was long term denial of the Iron tile. By setting the city to produce culture, then Library and hire an Artist or two once we're in Caste, I hope we could duke it out with Delhi's culture to maintain control of the tile for some time?

Not having played a test to nuclear weapons, I don't have any feel for the value of these seemingly 'crappy' cities. Relying on others to hash this out.

I have not played out to Nukles either, so I could be full of it.
However, by building on the Tundra Hill south of Delhi, once we take India, we would have use of the Wheat tile and some nice grass to build Workshops on? By building the white city in my piccie, we would have the river and, with Biology, more productive tiles. As CP mentioned, we also have forests to chop in the bfc to help speed whatever we may need.

I do see that once we take Bombay, the original white city would be more productive. I think it will take Biology and Communism to make these cities worth much.

Necessary evil. Glad you're home safely and back on the thread.

Yes, it is a very necessary evil. Can't help worrying a bit though.

It is nice to be home. A bit more rest and I'll be ready to take on anything, I hope...

 

[Frederiksberg]

Because it has few land tiles (minimal hammers) and will probably be compromised by Delhi expansion, would argue that this site is not a priority; moreover, G will probably settle there first, so leaving it available has some value. (Is knowing that we'll get it eventually after war begins a consideration?) If it stays available, then perhaps we re-consider.

At size 5 the iron/cow city can produce 16 hammers per turn using the available tiles. At this rate the hammers invested in the city are payed back in around 20 turns.

 

[Cactus Pete]

my thought was long term denial of the iron tile. By setting the city to produce culture, then library and hire an artist or two once we're in caste, i hope we could duke it out with delhi's culture to maintain control of the tile for some time? interesting idea. No clue how well it would work. Are you thinking that a long-term denial of the iron tile would significantly facilitate the post-nuclear conquest of india? Would think g could eventually manage to trade for a metal.

........... .

 

[Cactus Pete]

At size 5 the iron/cow city can produce 16 hammers per turn using the available tiles. At this rate the hammers invested in the city are payed back in around 20 turns.

Concur that it would not be worthless. The question is of comparative value vs other uses (particularly immediate uses) of settler or hammers required to build one.

 

[leif erikson]

interesting idea. No clue how well it would work. Are you thinking that a long-term denial of the iron tile would significantly facilitate the post-nuclear conquest of india? Would think g could eventually manage to trade for a metal

As Fred pointed out, 16 hammers per turn is not insignificant and these hammers would be denied to Gandhi to build units to use against us while we research to Nukes. Also, one less city to take once we have Nukes.

 

[Cactus Pete]

As Fred pointed out, 16 hammers per turn is not insignificant and these hammers would be denied to Gandhi to build units to use against us while we research to Nukes. By the time G settled the city and developed it a bit, we would probably be at peace with him, and he normally wouldn't build many units (though at agressive setting perhaps this is different). Also, one less city to take once we have Nukes.

Yes, but as he figures to be way behind us, won't taking his cities be easy? Not sure another useful Indian city wouldn't be a good thing.

 

[Mad Professor]

By the time G settled the city and developed it a bit, we would probably be at peace with him, and he normally wouldn't build many units (though at agressive setting perhaps this is different)

[snip]

Yes, but as he figures to be way behind us, won't taking his cities be easy? Not sure another useful Indian city wouldn't be a good thing.

On any setting, Gandhi in a war mood will build lots of units and become very powerful if he has the means. I've seen it several times in modern starts. Unchecked and riled, he becomes a military giant. If we keep him backward though, with not much production and short of cities and workers, he'll be a pushover. But we need to stay on his case from time to time before we get to nukes. We can't allow him free reign to develop.

 

[Cactus Pete]

On any setting, Gandhi in a war mood will build lots of units and become very powerful if he has the means. I've seen it several times in modern starts. Unchecked and riled, he becomes a military giant. No dispute with that, but why would he be riled once we sign a peace treaty? If we keep him backward though, with not much production and short of cities and workers, he'll be a pushover. We're in the process of limiting him to two good cities, no workers, and no improved tiles. How much farther does it make sense to go in this direction? But we need to stay on his case from time to time before we get to nukes. We can't allow him free reign to develop.

G figures to be a willing trading partner, plus we're going to want to concentrate on development and research. Not sure 'staying on his case' should be in the plan; rather, hitting him fast and hard once we have nukes would be consistent with both not impeding our progress and your point that he can turn out units quickly when at war. ...........

 

[Frederiksberg]

Concur that it would not be worthless. The question is of comparative value vs other uses (particularly immediate uses) of settler or hammers required to build one.

Outside of building settlers and a few units to keep Gandhi in check we don't have much use for our hammers. Perhaps some libraries to get a little culture and extra beakers. In my test games I was building wealth most of the time. With this in mind the iron/cow city seems like a good investment considering that we reach break even quite soon when it comes to regaining invested hammers. And no doubt it will also contribute commerce/beakers.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Ordered a computer today, should arrive in the next 5 days, still have to wait for internet though and I have no idea how long that will take. Should be back in the thick of things soon.

Looking forward to being able to play some large/huge maps!

 

[leif erikson]

Great news PK!

Looking forward to you rejoining the discussions.

Hope all is well.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Outside of building settlers and a few units to keep Gandhi in check we don't have much use for our hammers. Perhaps some libraries to get a little culture and extra beakers. In my test games I was building wealth most of the time. With this in mind the iron/cow city seems like a good investment considering that we reach break even quite soon when it comes to regaining invested hammers. And no doubt it will also contribute commerce/beakers.

Are you comparing its value to one or both of the cities being considered south of Bombay or to, say, getting the cities north of SP or on the ice island up and running quickly. Also if we continue the war to get it settled, we may need a boat(s) to keep G's ships off our nets.

I'll be checking in from time to time today, but won't have time to play for about 20 hours, when I'd like to finish my set and turn it over to leif. If nothing is resolved by then, propose that I at least play until another settler pops.

About time, PK. I think my stalling tactics are starting to wear thin.

 

[Mad Professor]

No dispute with that, but why would he be riled once we sign a peace treaty?

We're in the process of limiting him to two good cities, no workers, and no improved tiles. How much farther does it make sense to go in this direction?

G figures to be a willing trading partner, plus we're going to want to concentrate on development and research. Not sure 'staying on his case' should be in the plan; rather, hitting him fast and hard once we have nukes would be consistent with both not impeding our progress and your point that he can turn out units quickly when at war.

I have no argument with you there CP. As long as he stays limited I'm real happy. The less declaring of war on him the better because he will be less riled. We just have to watch him though - if he starts getting rolling we'll need to make sure he doesn't roll too fast. Critical is our own tech pace though. We've got to be building nukes long before the AI does, and even longer before the AI gets around to an SDI. That is even more important than keeping Gandhi slow By "staying on his case" I meant keeping a close eye on him and making sure he doesn't develop into more than a handful. He is one AI we can more easily limit than the others!