SGOTM 11 - ChokoMisfits

Research
0% 1 turn, 100% Alpha 1 turn, try to trade for Alpha, after Alpha go for Lit
Cities
Capital - Finish Hanging Gardens (Turn 1), Barracks
HorseCopper - Barracks, Chariot
OasisWheat - Parthenon
PigFish - Granary
ThreeClams - WB's
RiceMarble - Galley (keep farming!)

Great People
Capital - 2 SCI, 1 ENG (Work Food, stop Mines, get GPP)
OasisWheat - 1 SCI after pop inc in 2 turns


Scouting
Duh. Explore. Find people. Get stuff


Relations
Be nice to Yara, but set the stage...

*Pause for trading once we get Alpha, if there are any trades available. If no trades, just keep going*
__________________
 
For Great People in Capital, we can't run an Engineer specialist as we don't have a Forge (although we will get Great Engineer GPPs from the Pyramids and Hanging Gardens). Simply run as many Scientists as practical. If a Great Engineer is born, save him for the UN. If it is a Great Scientist, use him for bulbing.

By the way, on the topic of bulbing, the preferences of a Great Scientist are below. If we want to bulb Paper, we need to take Alphabet (as well as Theology, of course), but avoid Code of Laws (else that would open up Philosophy...)

Great Scientist bulbing preferences:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy
Biology
Electricity
Flight
Genetics
Compass
Satellites
Aesthetics (BTS)
Sailing
Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
Calendar
Medicine
Ecology
Advanced Flight (BTS)
Iron Working
Metal Casting
Engineering
Steam Power
Liberalism
Agriculture
Masonry
Bronze Working
Machinery
Gunpowder
Refrigeration
Superconductors (BTS)
Rocketry
Fishing
Combustion
Plastics
Composites
Stealth (BTS)
Mining
Military Science (BTS)
Radio
Meditation
Drama
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Democracy
Corporation
Communism
Economics
Hunting
Archery
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Robotics
Monotheism
Mass Media
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Artillery
Future Tech
 
If I remember correclty I think that we will go over happiness cap in capital when HG completes. We should check our other cities to check that our new pop are arranged in the best way.
I agree with revised plan I was also thinking a monument in the capital was not needed and that we cant run any GE's due to lack of forge.

I was thinking, can we risk using (if we get one now) GE to complete SP?? I agree the hammers needed to slow build is a very large investment. Is it a definite that if one of the civs we have already met build SP they will not go to FR??

Anyway, hopefully will only be a turn or two before we can trade for Alpha then pause for tech trading possiblities
 
I would save the first GE for the UN, because the odds of another GE will only become longer and longer over the course of the game as we invest more in Science, and we may indeed never get a second GE. Also, we can bring a rival AI out of Free Religion on the turn before victory, by way of Espionage Points and a Spy.
 
I was thinking, can we risk using (if we get one now) GE to complete SP?? I agree the hammers needed to slow build is a very large investment. Is it a definite that if one of the civs we have already met build SP they will not go to FR??

Great idea Mighty Dwaarf!

Shwedagon Paya can be used to adopt Pacifism without having Philosophy (when we finally get a Religion).

This is a good risk in my opinion, despite ianw1610's sound advice against it. I would counter that completing The Hanging Gardens this turn would increase Great Engineer Ppt to 4. Later when we have Metal Casting, we can run a Great Engineer to increase it to 7. Also, our Capital will likely be our sole Cottage City where we put all Citizens to work on Cottages and only a few will become Scientists. At most we will be working 5 Specialists who will consume the 10 Fpt our City center and two Corn Farms provide. That amounts to 10 Great Scientist Ppt versus 4 Great Engineer before Forge and 8 Great Scientist Ppt versus 7 Great Engineer Ppt after Forge. The next concern is our Great Person Farms will eventually generate about 3-4 Great People per 1 Great Person generated in the Capital, but we can make slight adjustments, like working PH Mines and GH Mines in the Capital to skew the Great Person generation in the Capital to GE (for example 4 Great Scientist Ppt versus 7 Great Engineer Ppt). We can also back off our Great Person Farm a bit to allow the Capital to generate a Great Person first. Forges could even be built in our Great Person Farms to add a chance of generating a Great Engineer there.

I really think we are likely to generate multiple Great Engineer rather than 0 or 1, especially if we are willing to adjust things slightly so the Capital has a much greater chance of generated a GE and if we adjust things slightly so that it generates a Great Person just before our Great Person Farm does. We really can double our chances of getting a Great Engineer via some micromanagement of Specialists in the Capital especially, costing us a most a few turns delay in generating Great People. The vast majority of such delay can be temporarily in the Great Person Farm by afterward running extra specialists while running down the Food surplus that occurred during the Specialist reduction.

Also, with Shwedagon Paya and a Religion, we would be able to use Pacifism to generate a couple more Great People in the early-mid game when they can be really useful.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
By the way, on the topic of bulbing, the preferences of a Great Scientist are below. If we want to bulb Paper, we need to take Alphabet (as well as Theology, of course), but avoid Code of Laws (else that would open up Philosophy...)

Excellent catch ianw1610! Yes, avoiding Code of Laws and researching Theology would allow bulbing Paper via a GS and that opens up bulbing part (or even all = 2 GS with some waste) of Education.

Paper isn't the best use of a GS as it is relatively cheap, you should hand research Paper and use the GS to bulb (part of) Education, many more lightbulbs gained that way.

Paper is cheap compared to Education, but it is also the same size as Philosophy.

Whether or not to bulb Paper depends on how many Great Scientists we can generate before we complete Theology. If we can generate only one Great Scientist, then I agree with Ozbenno that we should bulb Education instead. On the other hand, if we have two Great Scientists to bulb (or will soon have a second GS), there will be Beakers wasted whether we choose to bulb one on Paper and the other on Education or bulb both on Education. At Epic speed a GS bulbs 2250 + <Civ Pop> * 4.5 Beakers. I suspect that bulbing one GS on each Paper and Education would be best, but I have not done the computation to determine that definitively. If we manage to have 3 Great Scientists, then bulb Paper with one and Education with the other two to provide very early Education may be the best we can do.

Also, remember that Paper will allow us to trade World Maps and that may help with finding the location of the Fur and the other three Resources the goddess needs for her arrival in our world. Actually, I expect that none of the AI know were Fur is, but we realistically might find the location of the other three Resources via World Map trades.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Literature for GL/NE:

I agree with Sleepless that we should be going for Literature after we put enough beakers into Alpha to get the trade. Although we will have to see what is available from the other AIs once we have Alpha. But we want to get the Great Library with our marble, and also the National Epic in our GP farm.

Aesthetics and Literature are diversions from a beeline to Mass Media. Although Literature is a relatively small Technology and it alone is well worth the Research cost to build/complete The Great Library, our Research slide is only at 40% now, so we need to focus on our beeline Research path and especially ways to increase our Research, either via increasing the Research slider or adding Research multipliers, the greatest of which is Oxford University.

The quickest way to Oxford University is Monotheism -> Theology -> bulb Paper -> bulb Education.

The diversion to Literature to get The Great Library is worthwhile. However, where would we build The Great Library? It would be quickest to build in the Capital, but we wouldn't want it there, because it would contribute 8 Great Scientist Ppt that we have no control over; it would dilute our Great Engineer Ppt in the Capital too much, so it must be built in another City. Maybe our Horse City? It could be built fast and when complete, it could generate 8 Great Scientist Ppt plus 6 Scientist Ppt for two Scientist without Caste System.

We can build the National Epic in our Great Scientist Farm, PigFish.

Path to Paper & Education:

Since we will be trading Aesthetics for Alpha, we need to move quickly for the Great Library to ensure we get it. Mono and Theo will still be there later. In fact, with multiple AIs with Theo as a favorite civic they are likely to research it, and we can get it later by trade. Or at least get a research bonus for other civs already knowing the tech. Theo can wait while we lock down the Great Library. Economically we then need Currency and CoL to get our economy in order, and to open Caste civic for more Rep-boosted scientists.

We do need Code of Laws for both Courthouses and Caste System, but we need Theology before Code of Laws to bulb Paper. Once we have Paper bulbed, we can pursue Code of Laws and we will need it to adopt Caste System which will allow the huge numbers of Scientists we need to bulb Education.

So I suggest:

Alphabet (partial trade) -> Monotheism (trade) -> Theology -> Paper (bulb) -> Code of Laws -> Caste System (& Courthoses) -> Education (Oxford university) or Civil Service (Bureaucracy).

We need one Great Scientist soon for bulbing Paper:

I suggest we hire two Scientists in OasisWheat. That would provide 3 GSPpt * 2 Sci * 2 Phi = 12 GSPpt. Generating the 2nd Great Person here would take 300 / 12 = 25 turns. Otherwise, generating the 2nd Great Person here would take 450 / 12 = 38 turns, but getting a Great Engineer in Capital soon, rushing Shwedagon Paya, adopting Pacifism would bring it down to close to 30 turns. Researching Alphabet -> Theology -> Code of Laws (up to 1t left) should take enough turns to generate a Great Scientist to bulb Paper.

I would suggest that the Capital take over The Parthenon and not hire Scientist until it generates a Great Engineer at 100% probability. After that it can run max. Scientists.

Prebuilding Military units:

On pre-building units, I am not really in favor of this plan. Hammer decay sets in very quickly, even on epic speed, and we will end up wasting a lot of hammers for which we have many other uses. We might have one unit pre-building per city, but I do not think we should have any more than that and maybe we should have less. A couple chariots for exploration and keeping an eye on Zara is a good idea, though.

I propose to complete any unit just before it incurs any Hammer decay.

Prebuilding Military units is a great way to have a standing Army without paying for its maintenance, but the invested Hammers do commit one to eventually completing each prebuilt unit and paying for its maintenance or paying for its Hammer decay. There is the risk that Zara Yaqob doesn't declare War and then we either complete units or let them decay to nothing.

We could prebuild just one Spearman per City facing Zara Yaqob. We know he has Horses and thus he is likely to use them in any War he commits to. It would be wise to have a ready defense against Chariots or Horse Archers.

Utilizing Alphabet effectively:

Once we have Alpha, I think we will need to pause and assess what trading opportunities are available from the AIs. Since we will have traded Aesthetics to Zara for Alpha, we should be prepared to give it to the other AIs for whatever we can get before Zara does. The whole tech trading thing works so much better when you are the tech leader.

Agreed. One often needs to make a Technology deal the first turn its available, since it often will be gone the next turn, if any third party AI has the same Technology to trade.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
Really sorry about this folks but RL is really kicking me at the moment. Will be unable to use the internet for a few days but will be back on line Wednesday.

Good luck with your turnset JH as i expect you would have played by then.
 
I would play but apparently we have a tech path issue right now.

Imma gonna split my turnset into two parts.

Part 1: Finish HG, deal with pop increase and specialists and unhappiness. Get Alpha

STOP

Part 2: When we decide on tech path, continue along with the plan.

So I should do Part 1 tonight.

I lean towards Sun Tzu's plan, but honestly, I am not a tech guy, I war and I abuse diplomacy. So I will leave the tech planning to the tech experts.
 
Turn 1
Hanging Gardens Done, Started Barracks
PigFish finishes Workboat, starts Granary.
Begin roading to city 6.
Farm GPF city

We can trade gold and wheat from other civs, but we dont have anything to offer on 1to1, watching this.

Turn 2. With 1 turn of 100% research, we get Alpha. Good point to stop as we have trade opportunities with the other civs. Keep in mind Justinian and Saladin HAVE NOT MET Yara or Isabella.

I always have issues with screenshots, so here's the tech summary

Isabella Wants Aesthetics, Math
Justinian Wants Aesthetics, Polytheism
Saladin Wants Aesthetics, Polytheism

Isabella Will Trade Priesthood, Monotheism, Archery, Iron Working
Justinian Will Trade Archery, Iron Working (Will Not Trade PriestHood)
Saladin Will Trade Monotheism, Archery, Iron Working

I figure we shop Aesthetics around.

Now we need to decide our tech, and what to trade for. Save is uploaded if you want to look at it.

More later! Dinnah time
 
We can get all techs currently on offer by trading Maths to Izzy and Maths+Med to Sally.

We could also trade stone to for gold, we wont need stone any time soon and the gold will take away unhappy citizen in capital so we can work two mor cottages rater than corn whilst stagnating.

We should look to hook up marble soon to speed up Parth and Glib. I think we should whip the wrkboats out of three clams and pigfish as well as Granaries sooner than later to allow speedier regrowth.
 
Turn 1
Hanging Gardens Done, Started Barracks
PigFish finishes Workboat, starts Granary.
Begin roading to city 6.
Farm GPF city

We can trade gold and wheat from other civs, but we dont have anything to offer on 1to1, watching this.

Turn 2. With 1 turn of 100% research, we get Alpha. Good point to stop as we have trade opportunities with the other civs. Keep in mind Justinian and Saladin HAVE NOT MET Yara or Isabella.

I always have issues with screenshots, so here's the tech summary

Isabella Wants Aesthetics, Math
Justinian Wants Aesthetics, Polytheism
Saladin Wants Aesthetics, Polytheism

Isabella Will Trade Priesthood, Monotheism, Archery, Iron Working
Justinian Will Trade Archery, Iron Working (Will Not Trade PriestHood)
Saladin Will Trade Monotheism, Archery, Iron Working

I figure we shop Aesthetics around.

Now we need to decide our tech, and what to trade for. Save is uploaded if you want to look at it.

More later! Dinnah time

Greatest 2t turn set ever! Seriously, I'm very pleased you got Alphabet from Zara Yaqob in just two turns. 80% Research is close enough to 100% this time. Thanks for taking the dragon by the tail and shaking out Alphabet.

Encore, encore! :goodjob:

Sun Tzu Wu
 
We can get all techs currently on offer by trading Maths to Izzy and Maths+Med to Sally.

We could also trade stone to for gold, we wont need stone any time soon and the gold will take away unhappy citizen in capital so we can work two mor cottages rater than corn whilst stagnating.

We should look to hook up marble soon to speed up Parth and Glib. I think we should whip the wrkboats out of three clams and pigfish as well as Granaries sooner than later to allow speedier regrowth.

All top notch ideas! I agree 100%.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I suggest that we whip the Galley in RiceMarble. Move the Galley to the Continent North of us, picking up the Axeman near or in ThreeClams. We can quickly find out what is on that Continent.

We should also build a Chariot in OasisWheat, which can be completed in 3t if we work both Desert Hill Mines and no Scientist. We can have the Galley take the new Chariot to the Continent to our West. After that we should build another Chariot that the Galley can take to the Continent NE of Zara Yaqob.

Also, please start another Work Boat in PigFish as Mighty Dwaarf suggested. Whip it next turn (2t before Culture pop). Also, whip the Work Boat in ThreeClams.

Sun Tzu Wu
 
I agree it should be straightforward to get all the available Techs.

If it is possible to trade Stone for Gold, that would help for now, as we won't need Stone again until Oxford University is due... and if we get Gold we can once again consider our options re Shwedagon Peya!!

Tech-wise, go for Literature then Theology.
 
Trades
Maths to Izzy
Maths+Med to Sally
Stone 4 Gold (wayyy better than Cash 4 gold)

Workers
Hook up Marble

City
whip WB from 3Clams
whip WB from PigFish next turn
Whip Galley in RiceMarble
whip Granaries
Chariot in OasisWheat x2

RiceMarble whips Galley; Gives ride to Axeman and 2 Chariots
Move the Galley to the Continent North of us, picking up the Axeman near or in ThreeClams
We can have the Galley take the new Chariot to the Continent to our West.
After that we should build another Chariot that the Galley can take to the Continent NE of Zara Yaqob.


Tech
Literature, then Theology

And this is your 12 hour turnset play notice. Ill finish up tonight
 
I think the plan looks good, could you add which techs you're getting from each trade?
Mostly curious as I can't see the save.

Also, should we reconsider Shwedagon Paya, since we are getting gold?
I'd still prefer having control of it, but I also understand the good reasons posted not to go for it. So I can be convinced against going for it.
 
The tech are specified above, what is currently available to trade for.
I currently have no turnset plan for Paya. We are going to get better bang for our hammers using production for other things
 
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