SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

I also totally didn't realize that there was another viable coastal site. Kept thinking we're settling on one of the PH's. You are talking about 1NE of oasis, right? That seems to have a whole whack of desert tiles at first sight, but I guess it's actually not so bad, esp. if we can get an Artist border pop on a good schedule (I keep forgetting about this option - I'm so used to having no advanced techs at this stage ) Another advantage of that site, I suppose, is that we might have a slightly better cow infill? Not a great one, though. I'm not sure what I prefer. I'd personally go with the PH, but they both seem potentially ok for the limited purposes of that city.

 

[babybluepants]

Tech:
I guess my Alphabet/Paper suggestion was about as popular (or more, thx to one post by Silu) as I expected it to be.
Can't really complain about Aesthetics at this stage, I guess...

T100 (T+0) CANCEL STONE WORKER ACTIONS!!!
T101 wkr(Copper 1S) quarries stone !!!

I guess I'm too stupid, but what do you gain by this?

Looking at the team graphs:
Plastic Ducks got 100+ culture from t82 to t88 (circa 15-16cpt) after going steadily at 2cpt to that point... Oracled COL previous TS? That would found a religion (5cpt) and give them Oracle (8cpt) for 15cpt total. Can't think of another way in the 2000 BC era.

 

[shyuhe]

Ditto for me, I didn't even think about 1NE of the oasis as I thought we'd put the wheat in the first ring. Since we have caste artists, we can get the wheat in our borders very quickly (before the forest chop ends) so I'm fine with 1NE of the oasis. The fog north of the incense may have seafood yet, so it would allow for a reasonably decent green city if we need to plant one there (although it's unlikely given the resource distribution). I'm fine with either site, although our hand may be forced based on where Zara sends his stupid settler (that we're assuming he made).

Tech wise, I'm actually not convinced that aesthetics--literature is correct here. We are probably not building any aesthetis wonders here (unless someone wants to risk Parthenon pollution), so basically that tech line only gives us GL and NE (and HE later). Neither of those wonders can be started any time soon since our capital (likely candidate for GL) is busy with the pyramids and our GP farm needs a WB--granary--WB--library before it can start the NE. So I'd prefer to go either alphabet or currency here. I think alphabet may be a better choice here since it will help kick start the tech trading and may land us monarchy/IW sooner than waiting for emperor AI to tech it.

 

[shyuhe]

Looking at the team graphs:
Plastic Ducks got 100+ culture from t82 to t88 (circa 15-16cpt) after going steadily at 2cpt to that point... Oracled COL previous TS? That would found a religion (5cpt) and give them Oracle (8cpt) for 15cpt total. Can't think of another way in the 2000 BC era.

Is it possible that they pulled off a CS oracle as well? Their power graph hasn't increased much so they obviously haven't built many warriors. If they went with workers and built cottages, I can see them getting the oracle done a bit sooner than us (although unlikely).

regarding Delhi overflow - I would dump the overflow into a worker, followed by pyramids. It won't get the stone bonus but we might as well put some of the overflow into the pyramids - I don't think we're going to want that third settler so early without a worker to improve some of those tiles out there. And without a worker (or pre-built WB), the marble/clam isn't so hot, nor is FP/rice. We need at least two exploration WBs now, so I'd prefer to get the extra worker out to help chop out the boats.

 

[babybluepants]

Is it possible that they pulled off a CS oracle as well? Their power graph hasn't increased much so they obviously haven't built many warriors. If they went with workers and built cottages, I can see them getting the oracle done a bit sooner than us (although unlikely).

That would mean Oracle CS in the 1975-1925 BC range, which seems impossible to me.

Tech wise, I'm actually not convinced that aesthetics--literature is correct here. We are probably not building any aesthetis wonders here (unless someone wants to risk Parthenon pollution), so basically that tech line only gives us GL and NE (and HE later). Neither of those wonders can be started any time soon since our capital (likely candidate for GL) is busy with the pyramids and our GP farm needs a WB--granary--WB--library before it can start the NE. So I'd prefer to go either alphabet or currency here. I think alphabet may be a better choice here since it will help kick start the tech trading and may land us monarchy/IW sooner than waiting for emperor AI to tech it.

I agree with this. Quite a bit of the Aesthetics line value is generally in kick-starting trade. I'm a bit worried about AI's not getting to Alphabet until 500 BC or later, despite the fact that ZY is teching it in our test save () Math and Alphabet itself are viable trade chips. That said, we don't exactly need Monarchy if we're building Pyramids. The problem is we don't really have much to trade for, other than IW should we tech Alphabet. Poly/Mono won't be available 'till later, so what else? Straight Currency may be ok, if we're really putting down 6 cities on the proposed schedule.

 

[mdy]

I'm O.K. with settling NE of the Oasis, and that we should basicly build nothing but workboats there for a while.

Delhi settler-mids-settler-mids. At pop4 work 2f1h. At pop5, hire 2sci.
(Mdy's academy GS solution works perfectly: GS-settler-Mids. T117-T118.)
Bombay worker(2pop on T103 BEFORE REVOLTING TO CASTES)-settler-worker

Will a switch to Caste on T103 and getting our border pops be consistent with whipping our next settler in Delhi?

other two workers go to pasture 2-fish cows (+1t of road along the way)

Do we need two workers for this? One could probably do it quick enough which would allow us to whip a settler in Bombay for the marble site, and the freed up worker could go and improve it. This in turn would allow us to found the rice site earlier. (We may want to build a workboat or two in this city first as well.)

 

[shyuhe]

Alphabet gives us a discount on currency, and I think we're going to have to tech it ourselves to open up tech trading.

As for monarchy, we will need it eventually to open up feudalism (and banking) for printing press (a pre-req for scientific method). So we'll need it sooner or later - all the better if we can pick it up in trade.

 

[Silu]

I tend to agree with this. Quite a bit of the Aesthetics line value is generally in kick-starting trade. I'm a bit worried about AI's not getting to Alphabet until 500 BC or later, despite the fact that ZY is teching it in our test save () Math and Alphabet itself are viable trade chips.

Hmm, now I don't like the Aesth line either any more I might be too impressionable about these things...

That said, we don't exactly need Monarchy if we're building Pyramids. The problem is we don't really have much to trade for, other than IW should we tech Alphabet. Poly/Mono won't be available 'till later, so what else? Straight Currency may be ok, if we're really putting down 6 cities on the proposed schedule.

Well, at least we have cash and maps (when we go Paper, not that far off) to trade for Dunno if Alpha->Currency or Currency->Alpha is better raw-beaker-wise, the 20% boost vs the trade routes - probably Currency at least if we get Justin's TRs? Should probably test that. Currency would be nice to get online for when the classical wonders start to fall to prey on failgold.

 

[Mutineer]

I would not tech alphavit unless we really need to.

It is one of tech that AI always trade in monopoly.

 

[shyuhe]

I would not tech alphavit unless we really need to.

It is one of tech that AI always trade in monopoly.

Yes but emperor AI tech quite slow, and I have serious concerns that we may not get tech trading until after 1 AD unless we tech alphabet ourselves. I've definitely had emperor games where alphabet did not become available until after 1 AD.

 

[Mutineer]

My point is, we know everything else AI can have as non monopoly tech.

The only hope to trade anything is iron working.

 

[Silu]

Well there are still a couple of techs the AIs will trade as monopoly, like Monarchy. Plus the fact that we could sell techs for cash (possibly huge, from fail gold) and maps. There are also a ton of techs that Just/ZY will trade to us if they both know them, as their monopoly whine percent is quite low, at 30%.

 

[mdy]

I don't think the AI's will have enough useful techs to make it worthwhile to research alphabet. We probably don't have an immediate need for the literature line, although it would be tempting to build the Parthenon in Bombay for the GP points later. On balance I think it would be best to research currency after sailing to help the economy.

 

[LowtherCastle]

T100 (T+0) CANCEL STONE WORKER ACTIONS!!!
T101 wkr(Copper 1S) quarries stone !!!

I guess I'm too stupid, but what do you gain by this?

That worker can't do anything else important from that location. That's all. It enables another worker to pasture the horses starting T101 and then go to Wheat City and get the wb out one turn sooner.

I'm fine with either site, although our hand may be forced based on where Zara sends his stupid settler (that we're assuming he made).

Well, I'm assuming he did NOT build a settler. Even if he did, he surely didn't send it toward the desert.

Will a switch to Caste on T103 and getting our border pops be consistent with whipping our next settler in Delhi?

Yes.

Do we need two workers for this? One could probably do it quick enough which would allow us to whip a settler in Bombay for the marble site, and the freed up worker could go and improve it. This in turn would allow us to found the rice site earlier. (We may want to build a workboat or two in this city first as well.)

To respond, I tested your proposal from post #495. First the important news: The Pyramids were built by someone else on T126...

Second, three workers just isn't enough to adequately develop those three cities. On ~T117, 2-Fish is already close to 1 pop behind. Marble is of course ahead, but I think in my version, it catches up mostly because I'm able to get the forest chopped for the granary with a second worker. Rice doesn't get sped up at all.

I agree on using Rice to build a wb or two. I'm even thinking we might want to settle it before Marble (by just a few turns), because the settler from Bombay gets there a turn sooner, whereas the settler from Delhi gets to both Rice and Marble in the same number of turns. Furthermore, in my MM, the 2-Fish worker gets to Rice sooner than it gets to Marble. Finally, Marble gets two workers from Delhi just in time (after they finish the Mids chops). This also allows our first couple Wheat wbs to explore, because they're not needed at Marble anyway, and it gives 2-Fish a wb just when it needs it.

I think we want 3 exploring wbs: E, N, and W. If we settle at Oasis NE, then the first wb might as well go east, in case it's a dead end.

 

[Silu]

Can't we just go to Aksum with the warrior and see if it's a dead end?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Can't we just go to Aksum with the warrior and see if it's a dead end?

Good point. That would be a reason to send the first wb north, to give the warrior time to do that. But I would keep both of those warriors to guard Wheat until that barb dies.

 

[Silu]

There seems to be about a consensus on Currency after Sailing and choosing the Oasis spot over the PH spot. What are the decisions (besides the accurate play-by-play) that are on the docket now?

- The eternal worker/settler overflow question? I say Settler, but no strong opinion... feel free to count me as ½½ (haven't checked the play-by-play situation regarding it, sorry)

- OB with J'dog? I say yes, to get the diplo bonus going and to boost his research, when he gets sailing.

 

[shyuhe]

I would still prefer to go alphabet -- currency because of the discount and also to open up tech selling once we get currency. I just don't see the AI getting alphabet early enough for us to fully utilize the power of currency (selling backward techs).

As for the overflow, I say worker--settler or worker--pyramids.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Is it possible that they pulled off a CS oracle as well?

Not possible. Math is 6 pts of power. Ducks, Gypsies and we played the first 36t identically, it appears. Interesting to compare our T36 saves later on. Evidently, Ducks and we continued to play identically for many more turns, researching TW, growing to pop4 and building a warrior. Then their power increased by 5, 1 and 1. The 1s can only indicate overall population growth (2,4,6...) unless they lost power somehow, so they were growing.

In addition to CoL+Oracle, they might have built a library in Delhi and Stonehenge in Bombay. That would be 2+3+8+2(monuments)=15cpt.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Hi folks,

It appears I haven't the time to keep up with this I will just side out and be your first lurker for this game . I am very sorry to do this, but I see no other way. I had great fun playing with OSS the last two games. I hope things will change before civ5 is out. Special apologies to the new comers, LC and Mut. I am sure you guys will have fun and be competitive (prolly more without than with me ).

Cheers,
Raskolnikov