SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[Mutineer]

It is my believe AI does not close already open border, no matter attitude changes.

AI voiting attitude related only to as

 

[Silu]

@Silu, 3 questions:

1. You talked about OBs between AIs, but what about with us? DO you know if Toku will close borders immediately when he drops to Cautious, or do we have a turn or more grace period? Because we might be on thin ice, with him dropping to Cautious any turn now. Izzy has already dropped from +4 to +2 for trade relations.

AIs don't cancel OBs in BtS, ever. We can be Furious if we want and he won't cancel. Of course if those OBs would vanish for any reason it'd be basically impossible to get them back...

2. We keep talking about making someone a (peaceful) vassal. I thought AIs' attitudes toward us became the average of their attitude toward us plus their attitude toward our vassal. Is that true for the UN vote?

Yes, attitudes are averaged for all calculations that deal with attitudes. Those that deal with attitude values, namely, voting (only mechanic I can think of that uses values rather than attitudes) the averaging is not made. If they're +8 real diplo towards us and -20 towards our vassal they will vote for us even though they certainly wouldn't trade with us and would be very prone to declare war on us.

3. Toku's "favorite religion" is Buddhism. How does that factor in if all his cities have both COnf and Buddh and he's currently in Conf? Will automatically switch or what?

The only effect of the favorite religion is when playing with Choose Religions enabled. Then, if a Civ founds a religion, they will choose their favorite religion to found if it's not gone yet. No other effect. EDIT: value of favorite religion is 25% more than others and the required percentages are slightly skewed by around 10% - still not a big effect but will win a tiebreaker and make him switch.

EDIT2: Value of own state religion is +33% so current religion is more important than favorite religion in the vast majority of cases.

 

[mystyfly]

2. We keep talking about making someone a (peaceful) vassal. I thought AIs' attitudes toward us became the average of their attitude toward us plus their attitude toward our vassal. Is that true for the UN vote?

Yes I think this applies to UN votes too and would lower our chances.

3. Toku's "favorite religion" is Buddhism. How does that factor in if all his cities have both COnf and Buddh and he's currently in Conf? Will automatically switch or what?

I thought this "favourite religion" is just the religion the AI is founding (if available) when choose religion is on.


I didn't consider building the forge before the HG either. If delhi is growing fast enough, whipping aque then forge into HG before "really" building it might be best.

Chop with forge is 44 * 1.75 = 77, without forge is 44 * 1.5 = 66 hammers, 11 hammers difference... 22 hammers difference with stone, so quite considerable imo. Not sure how quickly we manage to build the forge, I think only way to get it done quickly is by whipping both aque and forge. If we would whip less we could start running an engineer specialist earlier and thus boost our GE ambitions instead of lowering them. We'd have to test that though. 2 scenarios:

1) paper > mc, aque > HG > forge
2) mc > paper, forge > aque > HG

xpost

 

[LowtherCastle]

I could swear that I've had AIs close their borders on me when their attitude dropped to a certain level. I suppose it could have been a DoW the same turn and I didn't notice the connection between the two announcements, but man, does this scare me... So you're dead certain that we can switch to Confucianism right now and Toku won't close borders unless one of us DoWs the other?

Two more questions I wanted to ask:
When we switch to Confucianism, does Toku start with -1 for that and then max out at -2 5t later?
How do you determine the max for any given AI? Because in the BTSleaders Xcel sheet it shows iDifferentReligionAttitudeChangeLimit = -1 for all leaders, but they obviously go to different limits.

 

[babybluepants]

Yeah, I also didn't think they'd cancel OB so easily. There's no particular reason not to adopt OR, if only for Delhi. I'm wondering if we wanna spend our missionary on Two Fish?

If the eastern wb finds out next turn, 1N, that were not likely to circumnavigate before Optics no matter what, then maybe we're not in a hurry for maps. If there's a chance for circumnav, then maps sooner gets our wbs moving faster sooner and home sooner. They might be able to come sooner anyway, with maps. Maybe that alone is good enough reason to do Paper(partial)-MC. THen again, I don't even know from testing that MC-Paper isn't done before Philo anyway. My testing was invalid for research pace.

I'm not thinking of circumnavigation, but resource search.
Agree on research pace. For one thing, we were 4-5t late to Currency in the test file. The real game should be faster. I'm still for teching Paper the turn after Philo bulb, but MC-Paper is ok, too.

I wouldn't delay HG. We traded away Math early, so I don't really trust mdy's previous test results. We should make sure we get it, now that there's already a hammer investment in aqueduct.

Settlers: It's unfortunate that Bombay needs to be stuck at pop 2, but I agree with LC that there's not much point growing it pre-corn and that we currently have no other city for this duty. It would be great if we could use Rice for a settler build, maybe? I don't think the 110 BC Education tests are all that great, since our production is behind research in those and we should tech even faster in the actual game.

I would settle fish/gold, but we'll stretch our galley turns that way. Need to get another one out of Ivory somehow. One other thought I had is that we may actually have a shot at fur or silk post-Paper with a preloaded galley in the west.

 

[shyuhe]

AIs used to close borders when dropping in attitude in warlords. They did away with that mechanic in BTS for some reason. I can try testing in worldbuilder later today.

As for the UN voting, yes the AI IGNORE their attitudes towards your vassal when considering who to vote for. They won't trade if they hate our vassal though.

 

[Silu]

Holy crap what a barrage of questions.

I could swear that I've had AIs close their borders on me when their attitude dropped to a certain level. I suppose it could have been a DoW the same turn and I didn't notice the connection between the two announcements, but man, does this scare me... So you're dead certain that we can switch to Confucianism right now and Toku won't close borders unless one of us DoWs the other?

AIs did that before BtS. You play XOTMs, maybe you're thinking of a WOTM or GOTM?

Two more questions I wanted to ask:
When we switch to Confucianism, does Toku start with -1 for that and then max out at -2 5t later?
How do you determine the max for any given AI? Because in the BTSleaders Xcel sheet it shows iDifferentReligionAttitudeChangeLimit = -1 for all leaders, but they obviously go to different limits.

The formula for heathen hate: getDifferentReligionAttitudeChange - (COUNTER/DIVISOR, max 1) - (1 if they have the holy city of their religion)

The counter isn't really important here as you can see. Personality is a much bigger factor.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay. I tested it. Furious Toku entertained my nosy worker for about 50 turns without complaint. So I agree with Mutineer that we switch to OrgRel+Conf immediately.

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So I gather then that the max for Izzy and Sal is -4 for different religion.

That brings up our relations with Izzy. Izzy will go to annoyed with us at -1. To keep her at cautious, we'll need to keep our trade relations at +2 or better.

We now know the PeaceWeightRands for all 6 AIs.
* Izzy will not become annoyed with Zara for religious reasons (-4 negmods). Period. So if we want Izzy to DoW Zara rather than us, we need to stay at Cautious.
* We will become Sal's WE (in 5t -4 different rel) at -3 visible diplo points. Until we get OBs +1, that means our trade relations need to be at least +1.

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As I understand this stuff, we do't need to be concerned with Izzy other than to keep the trade relations at +2 or above.

 

[Silu]

Yeah pretty sure that's the max for anyone

 

[Mutineer]

I am absolutely sure that having vassals DOES NOT effect UN votes at all.

 

[mystyfly]

OK looks like we figured out most of the things. Time for a PPP shyuhe?

 

[shyuhe]

OK looks like we figured out most of the things. Time for a PPP shyuhe?

Yes, that's what I was going to put together tonight!

 

[shyuhe]

IT: OB with Mehmed. Bombay worker (NE) moves to chop 1E. Bombay worker (SW) chops. Revolt to OR + Confucianism. Complete marble pasture. Ivory worker mines.

Turn 134: Delhi grows to 7, works newly completed cottage. Start quarry near marble. Oasis gets wheat, worker moves to mine 1SW (I think that forest is better saved for the university).

Turn 135: Delhi worker moves to cottage 2S1W. 2fish grows to size 7, hire another scientist. Turn research on (should be enough gold to finish MC in 6). Bombay (SW) finishes chopping. Goes to farm 2W1N of Delhi.

Turn 136: Rice grows to size 3. Work another FP.

Turn 137: Oasis WB finishes. Start another WB. Second Delhi worker joins cottaging. Bombay chop completes.

Turn 138: Ivory mine completes, starts mining next tile over. Bombay worker roads (1t) 1E of Bombay.

Turn 139: Delhi grows to size 8, works newly completed cottage. Galley arrives at marble to pick up worker and axe (?). Moves them to sugar. Bombay completes settler, heads towards horse to go to sugar. Rice grows to size 4, work the quarry (completed this turn).

Turn 140: Marble worker farms Bombay FP. Unload cargo for sugar. Delhi workers go cottage 1S of Delhi.

Turn 141: Complete MC. Set research to paper (0% slider). Delhi completes aqueduct (I think). Starts HG. Sugar worker chops sugar jungle. Oasis completes plains mine.

Turn 142: Oasis worker moves to mine other hill.

Turn 143: Stop set. Delhi grows to size 9.

I think this has lots of errors, as I'm not used to calculating city growth times on epic. I'll fix this up some more tomorrow but I thought I'd post it for some general feedback.

 

[babybluepants]

Oasis gets wheat, worker moves to mine 1SW

Should farm a plain maybe, to irrigate wheat...
Might as well mine the iron first instead?

Sounds good otherwise.

Edit: Are we building the next settler in Bombay?

 

[mystyfly]

Turn 135: Delhi worker moves to cottage 2S1W. 2fish grows to size 7, hire another scientist. Turn research on (should be enough gold to finish MC in 6). Bombay (SW) finishes chopping. Goes to farm 2W1N of Delhi.

IIRC on T134 you get another fish (in the save there's a WB ready on the next turn) so you might wanna work that instead of a scientist.

Turn 141: Complete MC. Set research to paper (0% slider). Delhi completes aqueduct (I think). Starts HG. Sugar worker chops sugar jungle. Oasis completes plains mine.

Well that's the other thing we have to decide on, forge vs HG first, or are we decided on that issue?

 

[LowtherCastle]

@shyuhe: Looks good to me. I carefully checked Delhi growth and cottages, compared HG-forge vs. forge-HG, etc. What seems to work perfectly is this:

1. Build: aque-HG-forge
2. two wkrs: mine Delhi-NNW, cottage all river grass (W-WSW-S)
/: wkr chops Bombay-2SW then GOES STRAIGHT to mine Delhi-NNW
3. Research: Paper(partial)-MC
/: Just DON'T finish paper

Notes:
1. Paper(partial) will get us maps about 3t sooner. MC should be done in time for forge build.
2. The 2nd mine gives us a very good return with OrgRel/Conf.
3. Delhi will need silver, ivory, and Confucianism happies.
Bonus edit:
4. Luckily, no need to worry about switching cottage tiles (multiple of 8 raw commerce)

(mysty reminded me about #4 )

 

[mystyfly]

1. Paper(partial) will get us maps about 3t sooner. MC should be done in time for forge build.

Thanks LC for testing

One more thing: We've discussed a few pages ago regarding the commerce in delhi. Make sure you are always having a multiple of 8 in raw commerce, even if it means working a riverside cottage instead of a village or so. You can see when you're getting x*8 C when the beaker output in the delhi city screen is showing xx.00 (no decimals). In fact you could check that in all cities that have a library, only that it's a multiple of 4 in those cities

 

[LowtherCastle]

Turn 139: ... Galley arrives at marble to pick up worker and axe (?). Moves them to sugar. Bombay completes settler, heads towards horse to go to sugar.

The settler is built on T138. Much better is this:

Turn 137
/: Remember to cancel Marble wkr action on Turn 137!!!

Turn 138
1. Settler moves straight onto waiting galley at Stone-NW-N
2. Galley moves NW-N
3. Marble wkr boards galley

Turn 139
4. Galley unloads on sugar island SE jungle tile

Questions:
1. Will the galley continue west or return east?
2. What will we do with the axe, who is currently at Bombay-1E?

.

 

[mystyfly]

Regarding your questions LC:
1. I assume the galley goes west to ship over another settler for gold should the site still be available.
2. Ideally the axe goes to sallys land to do some scouting. Since we aren't going to settle dyes we don't need powerful units anywhere, especially since zara is our religious buddy.

@shyuhe: Did you want to bring the worker to sugarisland before the settler? Wouldn't be bad at all, it could start chopping jungle, however I'm not too familiar with our galley/worker/settler-logistic situation.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Oasis

Since we're in Conf/OR, we could build the granary after the wb finishes. This city will grow faster and become fairly useful. However, building the eastern galley next is a good option too, since it will be done just about the time the Ivory worker is free. I wouldn't build another wb here.

  T152     pop  food  fpt hammers        hpt
---------  ---  ----  --- -------        ---
mine-farm   4    1/42  3  85/90 granary  10
farm-mine   4   10/42  3  82/90 granary  10

MM notes for farm-mine:
1. At pop3, work 1f2h for the bonus hammer if building granary or library.
2. When the mine is done, switch from 1f2h to 4h. Still grows to pop4 in 2t.

  T152     pop  food  fpt hammers       hpt
---------  ---  ----  --- -------       ---
mine-farm   4    1/42  3  74/75 galley   7 or 10
farm-mine   4   23/42  3  67/75 galley   7 or 10

MM notes for farm-mine:
1. Work max food till mine is done.

Farming wheat-1S first is clearly better.

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Note that mining the iron takes 8t, mining the hills only 6t. Both for +4.

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Also, I would send the wb to Sugar Island.

Sugar

Build? Should it build wbs for Marble?

I thinking mining the hill is better than chopping the sugar, especially if it's still not overgrown with jungle when the worker can start.

.