SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

Rice

I would keep the other Marble wkr here to chop and make cottages. When he's done with the marble, he could road the rice (1t), cottage fp at Rice1SE (1t), then chop into the granary, which would be done with a half-full granary.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Trading

What are your trading plans?

We won't need the clams for 10t, so we could gift it to Toku. No one else wants it.
We need to get our silver back in 3t. (Don't give corn to Sal, we need it for the new gold trade.)

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[mystyfly]

Cancel corn to justy and trade for 2gpt.

LC, I think you asked once whether having multiple trades helps accumulating the 2 diplo points; I used to think it had no influence how many trades there are but I don't know. Silu?

 

[Silu]

It does affect it. Linear progression, 10 turns of trading 5 resources equals 50 turns of trading 1 resource. I linked the whole thingy some pages back with the specific formula for resource trade, basically it's 50 turnbonuses per diplo to a max of 2, and decay rate is our # of cities / 4 + 1 turnbonuses.

 

[mystyfly]

Yup I remember that formula but I must have missed the part about trading several resources. Thanks silu

Well trading multiple resources is nice and everything but most important is that we don't stop trading so there is no decay.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Cancel corn to justy and trade for 2gpt.

I don't see how we can get our silver back from Justy if we trade our corn to Sal. Justy might not have rice, but since Toku has it, there's likely to be more on that landmass.

The trades have to be separate, according to klarius. If we gift Rice+clams in one deal the counter increments 1pt. If we gift rice and then gift clams--two separate deals, then the counter increments 2pt.

 

[Silu]

The trades have to be separate, according to klarius. If we gift Rice+clams in one deal the counter increments 1pt. If we gift rice and then gift clams--two separate deals, then the counter increments 2pt.

I didn't think of that - IIRC this is indeed how it very probably is according to Silu as well

 

[mystyfly]

We are currently giving justy 3 resources and get 2 in return IIRC - we're giving him corn, silver, and fish (?). If we cancel corn and trade it for 2gpt we get another counter, we need silver back, but we still have one deal with justy

 

[LowtherCastle]

We are currently giving justy 3 resources and get 2 in return IIRC - we're giving him corn, silver, and fish (?). If we cancel corn and trade it for 2gpt we get another counter, we need silver back, but we still have one deal with justy

Current trades with Justy:
1. corn for cows
2. silver+fish for gold

The problem is Justy won't trade gold straight up. If we want the silver back, we'll have to trade corn+fish for gold.

In the future, Justy might get fish, for all we know, so we might need to upgrade this
every ten turns. That's okay, because it means he can't cancel on us unexpectaedly and trade it to someone else. Or we get our own gold.

 

[Silu]

Hmh? I've never seen or heard that AIs wouldn't trade happy/health resources 1:1, excluding stuff like Ivory that's also a stratreso. But obviously the one that made the trade knows better

 

[LowtherCastle]

Hmh? I've never seen or heard that AIs wouldn't trade happy/health resources 1:1, excluding stuff like Ivory that's also a stratreso. But obviously the one that made the trade knows better

I've seen it go both ways. There must be something in the code that explains it. It would be nice to know if that'll change in 3t.

 

[Silu]

I'll see if I have the stamina to find that out once I get home. Been damn tired since I started working again :s

 

[shyuhe]

Should farm a plain maybe, to irrigate wheat...
Might as well mine the iron first instead?

Sounds good otherwise.

Edit: Are we building the next settler in Bombay?

The iron is a 4 hammer tile but takes 50% longer to improve. Thus the plains hill. I'm torn on what to do about Bombay but I think I'll go with settler after the first one, as it needs corn to grow and Delhi needs it to grow and doesn't have spare tiles.

IIRC on T134 you get another fish (in the save there's a WB ready on the next turn) so you might wanna work that instead of a scientist.


Well that's the other thing we have to decide on, forge vs HG first, or are we decided on that issue?

I'm ok with either. I guess forge first makes more sense since it gives us hammers to HG and we can chop some peripheral forests to finish HG in a hurry.

@shyuhe: Looks good to me. I carefully checked Delhi growth and cottages, compared HG-forge vs. forge-HG, etc. What seems to work perfectly is this:

1. Build: aque-HG-forge
2. two wkrs: mine Delhi-NNW, cottage all river grass (W-WSW-S)
/: wkr chops Bombay-2SW then GOES STRAIGHT to mine Delhi-NNW
3. Research: Paper(partial)-MC
/: Just DON'T finish paper

Notes:
1. Paper(partial) will get us maps about 3t sooner. MC should be done in time for forge build.
2. The 2nd mine gives us a very good return with OrgRel/Conf.
3. Delhi will need silver, ivory, and Confucianism happies.
Bonus edit:
4. Luckily, no need to worry about switching cottage tiles (multiple of 8 raw commerce)

(mysty reminded me about #4 )

I didn't want to send the Bombay worker directly to mine since it wastes some worker turns on its travel over. Is the extra worker turn not worth slowing the mine by two turns?

The settler is built on T138. Much better is this:

Turn 137
/: Remember to cancel Marble wkr action on Turn 137!!!

Turn 138
1. Settler moves straight onto waiting galley at Stone-NW-N
2. Galley moves NW-N
3. Marble wkr boards galley

Turn 139
4. Galley unloads on sugar island SE jungle tile

Questions:
1. Will the galley continue west or return east?
2. What will we do with the axe, who is currently at Bombay-1E?

.

I would like to send the axe to sugar island, just to make sure there are no barbs there waiting for our settler. The galley direction depends on which direction our city after sugar is going to go. If it's going on Izzy's land (for Buddhism spread), then we should send it east. If it's going for Sal's gold, then west. Thoughts?

@shyuhe: Did you want to bring the worker to sugarisland before the settler? Wouldn't be bad at all, it could start chopping jungle, however I'm not too familiar with our galley/worker/settler-logistic situation.

I'll check the galley logistics. Oh duh, I was calculating normal speed chops instead of epic speed chops I'll have to re-calculate that tonight but I think LC is correct. It may be better to ship axe + settler first, then worker second.

Oasis

Since we're in Conf/OR, we could build the granary after the wb finishes. This city will grow faster and become fairly useful. However, building the eastern galley next is a good option too, since it will be done just about the time the Ivory worker is free. I wouldn't build another wb here.

Also, I would send the wb to Sugar Island.

Sugar

Build? Should it build wbs for Marble?

I thinking mining the hill is better than chopping the sugar, especially if it's still not overgrown with jungle when the worker can start.

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Oasis - I think granary is fine.

Sugar - I would set it to build WBs for now. We're still short anyways. The worker can head to mine the grass hill first to speed up the WB. Not a huge rush to chop the sugar jungle without calendar.

Rice

I would keep the other Marble wkr here to chop and make cottages. When he's done with the marble, he could road the rice (1t), cottage fp at Rice1SE (1t), then chop into the granary, which would be done with a half-full granary.

Trading

What are your trading plans?

We won't need the clams for 10t, so we could gift it to Toku. No one else wants it.
We need to get our silver back in 3t. (Don't give corn to Sal, we need it for the new gold trade.)

.

I'd like to send one of the two marble workers over. There are two workers in that region right now, and marble has no need of one after it gets cows + quarry. Rice can use a worker (and work scientists if need be) so I don't think it needs two workers. That gives us a spare worker to send to sugar.

I don't think I received input on whether we want to trade for monarchy from Saladin. Thoughts on this from others? I still think it's worth doing, as we can always sell it to the poor AI for cash.

 

[Mutineer]

One thin to note, I think we can trade for monarchy now, for math?

May be we should do it, early or later we will need Feudalism.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm ok with either. I guess forge first makes more sense since it gives us hammers to HG and we can chop some peripheral forests to finish HG in a hurry.

The problem is spare worker turns for those chops. In my tests we don't have them.

I didn't want to send the Bombay worker directly to mine since it wastes some worker turns on its travel over. Is the extra worker turn not worth slowing the mine by two turns?

We lose 1 wkr turn, but it's actually the lesser of two evils. If you cottage Delhi-W first, then yes, you farm that tile, but will we ever need that farm? But even worse is what to do after that cottage. You can't go back to the mine without losing 2 wkr turns! With mine first, we can finish the first 8 cottages without losing any wkr turns. Furthermore, the added hammers from the immediate 2nd mine dovetail perfectly with finishing HG and forge. The timing of it all is kind of uncanny...usually MM is complicated, but this sequenceof ~20t is almost brainless.

I would like to send the axe to sugar island, just to make sure there are no barbs there waiting for our settler.

Impossible. Not enough tiles to spawn any barbs on Sugar Island. Plus, trying to transport a third unit over there slows down our already snail-paced galley...

The galley direction depends on which direction our city after sugar is going to go. If it's going on Izzy's land (for Buddhism spread), then we should send it east. If it's going for Sal's gold, then west. Thoughts?

This also raises the question of what we're doing with our COnf Miss. I've been in favor of using it for Two Fish, if needed, but now I kind of favor sending it to Tokyo. But that would mean having to build a miss somewhere else, just in case, in the next 20t.

I'd like to send one of the two marble workers over. There are two workers in that region right now, and marble has no need of one after it gets cows + quarry. Rice can use a worker (and work scientists if need be) so I don't think it needs two workers. That gives us a spare worker to send to sugar.

Then I misunderstood your PPP. I thought you were sending one to Sugar and the other to farm the Bombay fp.

I don't think I received input on whether we want to trade for monarchy from Saladin. Thoughts on this from others? I still think it's worth doing, as we can always sell it to the poor AI for cash.

It's definitely worth it eventually, but mightn't we wait till it's cheaper or Sal will give us more cash for it?

Sal won't trade with us at Annoyed, and he'll drop to that in 5t if we don't raise his trade relations to +2. Sooner if our trade relations drop to 0. DO whatever you feel most comfortable with.

 

[babybluepants]

Monarchy:
I forget the available trade options right now. I'd rather not give away cash or COL. Mutineer's love of vassal states notwithstanding , is there really a rush to trade for it? We can't get a hell of a lot in trade for it with other AIs. I guess I won't object to giving away COL if a few of you want to, but I'd be ok holding off on it, as well.

I could swear I was always able to trade happy/health at 1:1... I would be nice to know why (when Silu's done work and had a chance to chill out a bit, have a beer, ofc...)

Edit: x-post

 

[babybluepants]

This also raises the question of what we're doing with our COnf Miss. I've been in favor of using it for Two Fish, if needed, but now I kind of favor sending it to Tokyo. But that would mean having to build a miss somewhere else, just in case, in the next 20t.

I've been wondering about this. We do need spread there by the time we bulb Philo, at least. Delhi's the only place with hammers for it, I guess, but way overcommitted as it is...

 

[shyuhe]

Then I misunderstood your PPP. I thought you were sending one to Sugar and the other to farm the Bombay fp.

Oops Ok, send one worker to sugar and keep one dedicated to Rice then? The Bombay chopping worker (the slower one) can stick around Bombay and farm the FP, as Bombay will likely borrow the corn first when it actually grows.

Sal won't trade with us at Annoyed, and he'll drop to that in 5t if we don't raise his trade relations to +2. Sooner if our trade relations drop to 0. DO whatever you feel most comfortable with.

I'd prefer to go ahead and trade for monarchy, dispensing the least amount of cash possible. I think trading away math is better than code of laws, as we want to minimize the chances that another AI will bulb philosophy before us.

 

[shyuhe]

I'd save the missionary for 2-fish at this point. We need it for OR/pacifism but can't really afford to build one. I'm willing to wait in hopes that we get natural spread before pacifism though, as we won't be whipping in 2fish until universities are available.

 

[LowtherCastle]

dispensing the least amount of cash possible

Not sure I'm reading this right. Are you thinking about giving Sal some of our gold in trade?!?