SGOTM 11 - One Short Straw

[Silu]

Currency would let us sell resources for gold though. And didn't BBP test that it actually saves more beakers to get early TRs than to get the 20% boost for Currency?

WB east sounds good, although it looks like a one tile island if I had to guess.

/signed

 

[babybluepants]

I'd be for Alphabet first if we had immediate potential for tech-trade benefits. Don't think we do. And, yes, I did a calc, which I've since managed to misplace.

Edit:
IIRC, I just assumed some averages we'd be running during the research of both Alpha+Currency. Those were, approximately: -35gpt maintenance loss, running 2 sci and 1 cottage in Delhi, running 1 sci elsewhere. The result was 2t faster with Currency first.

Mechanic question: Do we need to see a path to Justinian's cultural borders to actually benefit from TR's?

If we were making a decision solely based on that, I'd redo it or, better yet, play test it first. Edit: Since it's probably at least a close call, I think I'm for Currency first.

It's slightly irrelevant until the end of this set, though. We can still switch post-academy.

 

[shyuhe]

Good point, I forgot that we're going to be on 0% slider until the academy anyways, so the 0% beakers going into currency are fine since we'll definitely have to tech that.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Another good reason to send the wb east. Justy appears to be alone to the north (or west?). The sooner we meet AIs, the more we'll know about how to approach Alpha.

 

[Mutineer]

Mechanic question: Do we need to see a path to Justinian's cultural borders to actually benefit from TR's?

We do and not simple to cultural borders, but to tie that connected by his road NW to his capital.

 

[LowtherCastle]

What if he has a connection to our capital (which he surely does)?

 

[babybluepants]

He'd benefit from the TR and we wouldn't, I think? Maybe someone can confirm? Like Silu said, though, OB should double the chance of Confu auto-spread. That alone is worth it, since it could save us the trouble of missionary spread.

 

[Mutineer]

yes, he will benefit from TR and we would not. I am absolutely sure about that.

Still Religion spread point has it merit.

 

[Silu]

Well... I was also arguing that speeding his tech could be a good thing, since we're pretty much dominating tech-wise as it is. Giving him a boost to potentionally tech Alpha sounds like an upside to me.

 

[shyuhe]

Ditto for me, I see no reason to NOT increase the AI tech speed, as long as that AI is not our intended victim.

 

[shyuhe]

Just some additional thoughts - it looks like xteam hasn't founded Confucianism yet. Is it possible that they are going for the Oracle--CS without bulbing math? It'll be interesting to see when their culture graph spikes. As for Phoenix Rising, I'm not really convinced they did an oracle--cs; it was probably code of laws. So for now we just have to continue leveraging our early bureaucracy advantage!

 

[Mutineer]

Well there is one more argument not to give AI trade routes.
Luck of gold slow down AI expansion, and this AI are near as. WE still might want to settle somewhere near them if resources are there.

ON research matter. May be it will be a good idea before resetting currency (expensive tech), do politeism/monotheism first.

We really can benefit from Org religion now, with all our expansion. AI will be slow trade this one, because Toa would not be gone for a time.

And it will let as to drop some hammers into Toa for fail gold if we want to.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Does converting to COnfucianism increase the auto-spread chance at all?

----

 

[Silu]

Well, apparently not. As I'm now actually looking at the code I can't find any evidence that OBs affect it either. Only the distance and whether or not they're connected (to either direction), and Theocracy.

 

[LowtherCastle]

We really can benefit from Org religion now, with all our expansion. AI will be slow trade this one, because Toa would not be gone for a time.

And it will let as to drop some hammers into Toa for fail gold if we want to.

Here are some hammer savings from Org Rel. Of course, we have to have our religion in the city and have OrgRel before we start building the particular bldg.

We have to weigh these hammer gains against the cost of researching the techs now rather than getting in trade later on. When are we likely to have Mono from trade, worst-case scenario?

Getting a bldg done sooner, such as with a 2pop in Two Fish is another possible benefit.

           OrgRel
           Base-hammers saved     hammers needed before 2pop
           ------------------     -------------------------
Delhi      HG     10h             
           Aque   14h             
           Monast  8h             
           
Bombay     Gran   18h                   
           Rax    15h             
           
Two Fish   Lh     18h                        
           Lib    27h              23h             
           NE     21h

 

[babybluepants]

How did you calculate those numbers? I can't really figure it out. Your numbers seem to be 1.5x higher than I'd get in a simple division:
Granary costs 60h, which is 48h x 1.25 (OR). So the savings would be 12h. No?

Mono may not (conceivably) be available in trade until the very late BC's. No way to really know, ofc, since it depends a lot on AI's - the ones we know and the ones we meet. I generally find Mono itself super-easy to trade for, but Poly rather difficult. Therefore, teching Poly is probably ok, but there's no rush for that. With this many (high-food) cities this early, OR does seem really appealing. Spreading the religion isn't a negligible task, though, and I'm kinda against self-teching stuff that we can reasonably get in trade. More importantly, against spending beakers on stuff that we can't get trade value for.

On the topic of spreading religion, a monastery in Delhi relatively soon would pay off nicely with the extra beakers.

Well, apparently not. As I'm now actually looking at the code I can't find any evidence that OBs affect it either. Only the distance and whether or not they're connected (to either direction), and Theocracy.

I was so convinced of it... I wonder who was the source of this myth.

 

[LowtherCastle]

1. Epic = 1.5x.
2. I also wanted to mention a monastery in Delhi asap. We'll want to be able to produce missionaries in pacifism throughout the game, so we might as well get the +10% sooner rather than later.
3. I'm wondering how much we'll get out of OrgRel in the short term because I assume we want to bulb Philosophy with the ensuing GS, so how long would we even be in OrgRel before we could get Mono for free?

 

[babybluepants]

1. Epic = 1.5x.

3. I'm wondering how much we'll get out of OrgRel in the short term because I assume we want to bulb Philosophy with the ensuing GS, so how long would we even be in OrgRel before we could get Mono for free?

I don't really think we need it (or, rather, can put it to great use) 'till some whipping spree pre-Educ. There's not enough production around in the short term for missionaries.

 

[mdy]

I agree that we will need a couple of monastries to enable us to spread religion, but it is not exactly our most urgent requirement.

Given that we are more likely to be research limited than production limited, I suspect we will be better of getting monotheism/polytheism in trade.

Perhaps we should consider founding 7 early cities on our island instead of 6 to deny the horses/fish site to Zara? Depending on where/if we founded the sugar city then the fish could be shared between them, and this site would be a potential Maori Statues location.

 

[LowtherCastle]

mdy, when are you planning to play on?