SGOTM 11 - Shaka, not stirred

[Andronicus]

Only starting SoZ is tied to having Ivory, ACs come even if no ivory is connected.

I think this is incorrect - require ivory in SoZ town for AC.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm11/Shaka_SG011_AD0250_01.SAV posted to submissions page, typing turnlog now

Short story
We have chivalry - first knight rolls off production line next turn
Gains
In Germany - Leipzig
In Egypt - Thebes (again), Heliopolois
In starting region - Tietsin
Imminent gains
Elephantine captured, taken by Ottomen, should fall to us again next turn
Giza should falll turn after next if not next turn
Nagoya next turn, just came up short last turn

 

[markh]

Hey! What about me? Don't I deserve anything? After all I beat out Paul.

Oh, I just checked the results for COTMs, I have not seen the results for the GOTMs. forgive me. Congrats, too, mate. Impressive game.

 

[Paul#42]

Hey! What about me? Don't I deserve anything? After all I beat out Paul.

I guess that's excactly why he did not congrat you for dastardly winning by one single point.

There is a Jason calculator somewhere - and there is a link to it on the Results page at "How does Jason Scoring work?" iirc.

 

[Abegweit]

Found it. Thanks. My game was 8496, 60 behind Wotan. Of course, if I had given myself time to play the end carefully instead of desperately trying to meet the deadline....

 

[Andronicus]

Turn log

Pre-turn 50AD
MGL -> army
Transport army and vWarr back to starting area
Switch research to Chivalry @70%, lux to 30% - 2 scientists
Embassy with England - at war with GFS alliance , has lost Hastings to Germans

Chiv due in 10, with 241g making -36gpt

IT
Korea request peace, want 40g -> refuse
Pentagon message
Thebes quells only 1 resistor despite packing in 14 units
Bapedi treb -> treb
Isand MDI -> MDI
Intombe treb -> treb
Mpondo MDI -> worker
German, Ottomen and Japanese galleys all heading home.
E archer approaches from Giza and WC from NE of Thebes

Turn 1) 70AD
Settle Isipezi on gold hill
Move other settler onto other gold hill
@ Abydos; vhorse l spear(1/3), ehorse retreats spear(2/3), 3/4horse d2/3spear, 2/4horse d 1/3spear -> autoraze (2-1)
No units left to attack Otto archer/settler pair - then realise can get extra move of MDI by loading into empty army 4/4MDI army d archer (3-1), 2 slaves
Near New Memphis; vhorsed E archer (4-1)
Near Thebes; 4/5horse d WC (5-1)
Leave 3 1/4 horses in Thebes. Figure these are expendible (will take 4 turns till healed and useful if vacate Thebes)
Move units to Byblos - size 7 defended by pike
England have 13g - they give it for MA v Germans
India now willing to give peace straight up - hold off for now.

IT
Thebes deposes and we lose the 3 horses (5-4)
E archer approaches NM from Giza, O archer approaches from Heli
Zim MDI -> MDI
Hlob settler -> horse
Mpondo worker -> MDI
Ngome MDI -> horse
Tugela horse -> horse
Umtozi horse -> horse

Turn 2) 90AD
Thebes has an AC !
@ Byblos; 1stMDI army d pike + spear, *horse retreats spear(2/3), 3/3spear appears - wait for next turn (7-4)
@ Thebes; 4/5horse d AC, 3/4horse retreats spear(3/3), other units too weak to risk -> wait (8-4)
Settle New Zimbabwe on southern gold hill
Near NM; vhorse d E archer (9-4)
Rush harbour in NM (100g) - will settle wines next turn

IT
E WC loses to Impi outside Thebes (10-4)
French request peace if we are willing to give them Engineering. Sure, in your dreams Joan .
Ulundi MDI -> horse
Swazi impi -> horse
Ibab MDI -> MDI
NM harbour -> impi
Treasury running low warning

Turn 3) 110AD
@ Byblos 1stMDI army d 2spear, eMDI d spear -> raze for 3 slaves (13-4)
New Ulundi settled on wines (N,NE of NM rather than 2N of NM as planned because that tile now under Thebes cultural control and would delay wine connection 1 turn) -> treb
2nd army now filled - send to retake Thebes
vhorse d E archer (14-4)
*horse d O archer (15-4)
ehorse d 1/3 C archer - bombarded by trebs (16-4)
Decrease lux to 20%, science to 50% - lux can go to 10% if we had 3 more MPs - switch a few builds to impis

IT
E archer retreats horse
Germans drop off another settler pair
Vikings will give peace for mono - no way
Zim MDI -> MDI
Bap treb -> treb
Ngome impi -> horse

Turn 4) 130AD
ehorse d 2/3 C archer (17-4)
vhorse d G archer/settler pair (18-4)
@ Thebes; 2ndMDI d 2spear, another spear appears - wait
lux -> 10% juggling MPs; chiv in 6, 21g, -7gpt

IT
Japan request peace, want mono -> tell them jump on their own sword
Tugela impi -> impi
Umfolozi horse -> horse

Turn 5) 150AD
Ottomen and Korea now have Theology, C, K & O have invention
India switch Feud -> Rep
German galley blocks wine trade route (next turn will settle across straight from NM which will overcome this problem) -> some MM
3rdMDI heads across straight to Germany
@ Thebes; 2ndMDI d 2spear, 1stMDI d 1spear -> capture (size 10, 9 resistors) (21-4)
vhorse d E archer
*horse d E archer
vhorse d E archer -> elite
vhorse d O archer (25-4)

IT
E archer retreats horse
Zim MDI -> MDI
Ulundi horse -> worker
Isand MDI -> horse
Intombe treb -> treb
Ngome impi -> MDI
Ibab MDI -> MDI
Koreans building Sistine Chapel

Turn 6) 170AD
Land 3rdMDI in germany
Settle New Bapedi to speed transfer across straight to Egypt and to secure trade route.
ehorse d E archer
ehorse d E 1/3WC
ehorse d C archer (28-4)
2ndMDI approaches Elephantine defended by reg pike (1st remains by Thebes to retake if flips)

IT
Germans request peace - no way
Americans request peace, want monarchy - not going to happen
Ulundi worker -> horse
Bapedi treb -> galley
Hlobane horse -> horse
Mpondo MDI -> MDI

Turn 7) 190AD
@ Elephantine; 2ndMDI d pike and spear, spear on top -> wait (29-4)
ehorse d E archer
3rdMDI d G spear (31-4)

IT
Thebes deposes again
Zim MDI -> MDI
Swazi horse -> horse
Tugela impi -> MDI
Umtala treb -> treb
Umfolozi horse -> MDI
Ibab horse -> horse
French building Sun Tzu's

8) 210AD
Thebes has an AC again
@ Thebes; 1stMDI d AC + spear, ehorse l spear, ehorse d 2/3spear -> capture (size 9 all resistors) (34-5)
@ Elephantine; vhorse d spear, vhorse retreats, ehorse d spear -> capture (size 5, 4 resistors, get 2 slaves) (36-5)
We now have ivory
2ndMDI d E spear/settler pair -> 2 slaves (37-5)
Find Arabs east of Egypt
vhorse d O spear -> elite (38-5)
Switch all towns with rax to market as knight prebuild, look to optimise for knight production (24, 18, 14, 12 or 10spt most efficient - 14 and 10 have no wastage) as can bring chivalry down to 2 with a couple more scientists
Egypt now has Theology

IT
O horse d 1/4 horse *2 (38-7)
Amat treb -> treb

Turn 9) 230AD
China has lots of gold
@ Tiensin; MDI d spear, ehorse retreats spear, MDI d spear -> capture (get 7g) (40-7)
@ Heliopolis; MDI d spear, vhorse d spear -> elite
MDI d spear -> capture (size 2, both resistors) (43-7)
ehorse d O archer (44-7)
@ Basra; ehorse d A horse -> autoraze (3g) (45-7)
Thebes left vacant for Ottomen to take - horse within range (reMM to allow for loss of ivory when Thebes captured)
@ Leipzig; 3rdMDi d 2spear, archer remains (and cat) -> wait (47-7)

IT
Egypt request peace - forget it
O horse d impi (47-8)
O horse l ehorse (48-8)
O capture Elephantine - 2 horses and spear enter (lose no gold)
O horse ignores undefended Thebes
O horse d ehorse (48-9)
Chivalry -> Invention (science to zero)

Turn 10) 250AD
@ Leipzig; 3rdMDI d spear amd archer -> capture with 2 slaves and cat (50-9)
@ Nagoya; MDI l spear, MDI d spear -> wait further reinforcements (51-10)
vhorse l A spear
ehorse d A spear (53-10 - 15 elite victoris but no leader, now thats the form we all remember)

 

[Andronicus]

Situation on other continent
England remains at war with GFS alliance (presumably so does America)
Only losses have been England losing Nottingham to French and Hastings to Germany
England (7 towns - no iron) - has worker for sale + 8g - we could buy with 8gpt then invade America's waters to cancel.
America (9 towns, no iron) - will give peace for republic and throw in worker and 4g - I dont think so.
Germany (10 towns, no iron) - will give 21g for peace (but currently in MA with England against them)
France (13 towns, have iron and feudalism) - the strongest AI on other continent, I wouldnt be surprised if they bring down Engand now they have MDI. Req tech for peace.
Scandinavia (10 towns. no iron) Want tech for peace.

I think we can consider the English deal - not much gained but I dont see them as having much gold avail given they are on the end of a beating.
Berlin and Konisberg appear to be on a peninsula - I think the first 6 knights we produce should be shipped over there to support the 3rdMDI (edit - see later post - I changed my mind on this). The goal should be to take over Germany and for the army to find and pillage France's iron.
Peace with English (not yet at war with) and Americans can then come whenever convenient.

Situation on our continent
Dont know if the 2 alliances are at war or not.
I suggest we take Nagoya, them make peace for best avail deal - send sev impis east to explore (can get around Hangchow) and ensure alliance
Korea has lost Pusan to Ottomen and Wonsan to Russians
China (8 towns) - up invent / theo, peace costs 6gpt
Japan (8 towns) - down eng / mono, peace costs 12gpt
India (6 towns) lack eng/mono, peace costs 5gpt
Korea (3 towns) up invent / theo, peace costs 6gpt
Arabs 4 towns lack constr, CoL ++, will give peace for construction throwing in 2 slaves + 34g
Egypt (4 towns) up invent/ theo, give 6g for peace or invention for 25gpt
Ottomen (11 towns inc Pusan & Elephantine) - up inv/theo req 23gpt for peace
Russia (8 towns inc Wonsan) - up inv, down mono, req 9gpt for peace or mono + 19gpt will give us invention

I think we should remain at war with AEROs whilst continuing to press forwards. In particular we must remove Egypt so Thebes becomes flip risk free. Of Egypt's 4 towns the captal Pi-Ramases is still wonder building (could cascade to Leo's or Sistine if Sun Tzu's elsewhere) and should go last or as soon as wonder built. Giza will go in next few turns, then on to town to east. I dont know where the 4th town is ? to the NE somewhere.
If we do want peace giving Arabs an AA tech is a cheap way out.

 

[Abegweit]

Situation looks good. I wouldn't have left the horses in Thebes but I understand your reasoning. It would have been better if they had been snt to NM in the first place. Beyond that... nice progress.

Note to next player: a lot of units are fortified. This includes the horse, treb and MDI on the desert peninsula and 2 MDI outside Thebes, who should take out the Otto horse there.

Definitely we have to stay at war with AERO until Egypt is finished.

As for JICK, I'd suggest taking Hangchow (at minimum) before peace. Among other things, this could connect us to Egypt by land and gives us access to India. Besides we want control of the peninsula.

Sure. Do the English deal. It doesn't gain us much but...

 

[Paul#42]

Nice progress in Egypt despite bad luck. I'm drooling for our first AC...

I'm not sure if we want to take Nagoya. It opens the door for land units (although Hangchow still provides a nice bottle neck). Du we want to have more action on the east front? I consider it convenient to get all those JICK units after a long exhausting way to Egypt (which the can encounter AERO units too). However a pike with four trebs and some MDI might block every AI force easily at the gates of New Nagoya...

For that reason I'm also not sure if we want to take Hangchow, the line of defense becomes quite long by that...

Do we have a clue when Pi-Rameses started building that wonder? Right now it won't be making too many shields as we cut its food supply... However to leave the wonder building capital for last is always a nice strategy.
I would not wait for it to finish the wonder, though.

D'accord about finishing Cleo and doing the Liz-deal as described.
After Cleo I think we will go on with Osman.

 

[Paul#42]

roster

Abegweit - on deck
Paul
Andronicus - just played
Mark - up

 

[Abegweit]

I'm not sure if we want to take Nagoya. It opens the door for land units (although Hangchow still provides a nice bottle neck). Du we want to have more action on the east front? I consider it convenient to get all those JICK units after a long exhausting way to Egypt (which the can encounter AERO units too). However a pike with four trebs and some MDI might block every AI force easily at the gates of New Nagoya...

For that reason I'm also not sure if we want to take Hangchow, the line of defense becomes quite long by that...

Your point about Nagoya is valid. So either leave it alone or take Hangchow too. I'm in favour of going after both cities. We can go to peace with one block or the other once that is done, thereby protecting one flank for a while.

 

[Andronicus]

I wouldn't have left the horses in Thebes but I understand your reasoning. It would have been better if they had been snt to NM in the first place.

Correct

Note to next player: a lot of units are fortified. This includes the horse, treb and MDI on the desert peninsula and 2 MDI outside Thebes, who should take out the Otto horse there.

MDI on desert peninsula can definitely go to Egypt.
Horse and treb are to cover AI settler pair landings. Once we are at peace with some (? JICK) we should cover the 4 marked tiles with slaves (there are 2 on galley about to return from Germany) so AI doesnt settle on our route to Egypt.

The 2 MDI by Thebes are guarding the settler. Taking out Ottoman horse risks the other being attacked and losing the settler, but may be the better move. Another alternative I have just seen is to use the horse protecting the worker stack 2SW of Thebes - the Otto horse is the only threat to these workers and the horse is not much defence anyway.

As for JICK, I'd suggest taking Hangchow (at minimum) before peace. Among other things, this could connect us to Egypt by land and gives us access to India. Besides we want control of the peninsula.

Hangchow is not necessary and may delay peace with JICK too long.
JICK units have started appearing in Egypt area only on last turn. I think they are no longer at war with AERO and this explains the recent big increase in AERO units last few turns. The situation is becoming like AW but we do not have a defendable front. I think we need peace with JICK ASAP (after getting Nagoya next turn?) then bribe JICK back into war with AERO. Hopefully the Indian or Chinese troops we can see in Egypt will enter AERO territory. India and Japan lack mono and would probably require tech to ally unless we want to spend gpt (delays horse upgrades but ensures they remain in alliance). Perhaps even delaying Giza capture by 1 turn and coax Indian archer into Egypt territory there may trigger the alliance.

Sure. Do the English deal. It doesn't gain us much but...

May be best to remain at peace with England as this gives option of gifting a city in Egypt that is under too much pressure to hold, then retake after invading America's waters at a time of our chosing (giving time to get knights to the area).
I am wondering about the wisdom of sending units to Germany at a time when we are thin on quality units in Egypt. Perhaps let 3rdMDI heal up and take Berlin settling for peace as soon as threatened (send galley into Houston's waters to trigger England mpp and cancel our MA v Germany first) - army can then explore (?rop) France to find her iron source for later pillaging once we can spare a decent number of knights over there.

I think the first 6 knights we produce should be shipped over there to support the 3rdMDI. The goal should be to take over Germany

OK, so I've changed my mind.

I suggest we focus first on sending everything at Egypt and cont through AERO alliance with help of JICK. as we sweep northeast and east we should be able to hold a defendable line provided we have enough troops at the front. Below I've given my thoughts to map. First phase expansion is to light blue line taking towns with pink arrows and settling pink dots, second phase continues north into Otto territory (Istanbul has ToE for border expansion and much needed culture and is building Sun Tzu's, Uskudar has GLH) to pink line then sweeps through Russia / Arabs.

edit - more thoughts
Zimbabwe and Bapedi have been sharing one of the gem mountains (Zim 25spt with gems, 23spt, 23spt -> knight). Bapedi has too much production to waste on trebs and we dont need more galleys. I suggest it should be switched to rax thence to knights. A gang of slaves is about to mine a mountain for Bepedi which it can use when Zim using both gem mountains. All MM will need re-jigging at end of GA of course.
We have excess workers with few tasks for them to do.
I suggest folding them into towns.
We have 8 workers
5 in SE completing irrigation project to support specialist farms (3 SE most towns need to get to size 4 working 2 iGrass and supporting 2 taxmen each - so 1 more mined grass needs irrigating - the one Umtata is working - it can then use plains currently being irrigated)
2 by Ibab can help mine iGrass near Ulundi (not the ones Ibab is using), in addition to sheep and another plains tile (so Mpondo and Ulundi can work 6 tiles with max production and no food wastage).
Currently we need another lux to grow most towns (eg Umfolozi, Tugela). Ivory will be obtained with capture of Elephantine but the route remains insecure. There are spices E,SE of Giza which may require a colony so sending a slave that way now may help. Increasing lux to 20% cost 11 gpt but could be worth it if we could add 4 workers to towns and have 4 more taxmen - not sure that is feasible.

What to do with Tietsin? Its in a terrible possition on the goats! It is not worth building a harbour so can only support 1 taxman at size 1 or grow to size 2 working hill and coast. Meanwhile it increases corruption in towns further from our capital.
Suggestion - gift to England - will only produce 1spt so long time before produces second unit to bother us (30 or 40 turns). We can take back anytime later in game if we want. Abandoning just means AI will resettle there - we would have to block the 6 desert tiles and hills with slaves to prevent.

 

[Andronicus]

PS. well done Paul and Abegweit - 2nd placings - next time the gold?

 

[Andronicus]

Nice progress in Egypt despite bad luck. I'm drooling for our first AC...

We need the ivory

I'm not sure if we want to take Nagoya. It opens the door for land units (although Hangchow still provides a nice bottle neck). Du we want to have more action on the east front? I consider it convenient to get all those JICK units after a long exhausting way to Egypt (which the can encounter AERO units too). However a pike with four trebs and some MDI might block every AI force easily at the gates of New Nagoya...

For that reason I'm also not sure if we want to take Hangchow, the line of defense becomes quite long by that...

Agree - take Nagoya next turn then peace with JICK

Do we have a clue when Pi-Rameses started building that wonder? Right now it won't be making too many shields as we cut its food supply... However to leave the wonder building capital for last is always a nice strategy.
I would not wait for it to finish the wonder, though.

Good call - Pi-Rameses only size 4, probably only 5spt - no way it will build wonder. Still no need to hurry taking it - it wont produce any units

D'accord about finishing Cleo and doing the Liz-deal as described.
After Cleo I think we will go on with Osman.

Agree, poss gift Tietsin before the Liz deal?

 

[markh]

I got it. I will finish my turns for CIV SGOTM2 this evening. Then I will have a closer look and plan to play tomorrow evening.

 

[Paul#42]

What to do with Tietsin? Its in a terrible possition on the goats! It is not worth building a harbour so can only support 1 taxman at size 1 or grow to size 2 working hill and coast. Meanwhile it increases corruption in towns further from our capital.
Suggestion - gift to England - will only produce 1spt so long time before produces second unit to bother us (30 or 40 turns). We can take back anytime later in game if we want. Abandoning just means AI will resettle there - we would have to block the 6 desert tiles and hills with slaves to prevent.

I'd build a settler there (while using a scientist) and resettle it one tile SW. Two downsides: It takes 30 turns and it climbs to RCP7 raising corruption for towns at RCP8 (Tugela, Hlobane).
To raze and block 8 empty tiles with slaves is too expensive imo.
Giving it to England - well all they could do is build some cheap units there. For at least 40-50 turns this would be convenient, no real thread. Downside: Maybe they meet new civs they did not know before - raising trade rates? Or does England know everbody already?

 

[markh]

Well I planned to play tonight, but have questions.

I would not attack the Otto horse at Thebes. If it retreats and I have to use the second MDI to finish it off the Arabian horses can attack both MDIs. That could be quite expensive. We could use the army, but I would let it heal to full strength.

I'd prefer to let Otto take Thebes and take it back. This reduces pop. We anyway have no ivory connected, so we cannot get any ACs.

 

[Andronicus]

I would not attack the Otto horse at Thebes. If it retreats and I have to use the second MDI to finish it off the Arabian horses can attack both MDIs. That could be quite expensive. We could use the army, but I would let it heal to full strength.

I'd prefer to let Otto take Thebes and take it back. This reduces pop. We anyway have no ivory connected, so we cannot get any ACs.

That was my intention
There is a horse guarding a worker stack near Thebes, but I think I moved it there to cover the workers so would need to check first that it could reach the O horse.

 

[Andronicus]

I'd build a settler there (while using a scientist) and resettle it one tile SW. Two downsides: It takes 30 turns and it climbs to RCP7 raising corruption for towns at RCP8 (Tugela, Hlobane).
To raze and block 8 empty tiles with slaves is too expensive imo.
Giving it to England - well all they could do is build some cheap units there. For at least 40-50 turns this would be convenient, no real thread. Downside: Maybe they meet new civs they did not know before - raising trade rates? Or does England know everbody already?

I think England would only meet other AI in this situation after they had built a unit there. They would then be dependant upon a galley venturing that way.

 

[markh]

That was my intention
There is a horse guarding a worker stack near Thebes, but I think I moved it there to cover the workers so would need to check first that it could reach the O horse.

No, the horse cannot reach it. I took this into consideration.

I do not know whether this was already talked about, but do we raze or keep cities beside Thebes ? Keep the Egyptian ones and raze Otto's ? The estern Egyptian might be a little difficult to defend in the beginning if we want to keep those.

 

[Andronicus]

I do not know whether this was already talked about, but do we raze or keep cities beside Thebes ? Keep the Egyptian ones and raze Otto's ? The estern Egyptian might be a little difficult to defend in the beginning if we want to keep those.

I razed Byblos (I think it was that one) but maybe keeping better as AI keep sending settlers there. Certainly keep Egyptian ones as I anticipate Cleo gone soon. If we send all knights to Egypt I think we can hold Otto towns too - just dont keep units there as they have ToA and flips will occur (especially dont keep any army in a flip risk city - note army in Leipzig safe this turn). IIRC they dont have iron so only spears means easy to retake. Russians have iron, first pike just appeared - I would expect their MDIs to arrive soon.
Had a thought - there is a 4/5horse by Heliopolis who can reach the O horse but it would then leave a wounded elite horse exposed to Chinese horse. I favour letting O horse take Thebes then retake with 2 MDI sitting outside.