SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

[Duckweed]

And another quite important note: It seems PD is really just kossin+Duckweed. Say it isn't an advantage, I won't believe you . Those two certainly know what they are doing.

Hehe, there are advantages and disadvantages of being the smallest team. The biggest loss is that we two have quite similar play style and we certainly missed many out of box but wonderful ideas.

Congratulations on a solid finishing and very likely bronze.

 

[kossin]

Hehe, there are advantages and disadvantages of being the smallest team. The biggest loss is that we two have quite similar play style and we certainly missed many out of box but wonderful ideas.

Congratulations on a solid finishing and very likely bronze.

Agree, we'll be looking to add new blood for next SGOTM. The second biggest disadvantage is having fewer time to test, update etc. For example, I had very little time during most of November which left Duckweed to do most of the job. We'd certainly have kept the war going if someone on our team would have figured out earlier that fallout can't be cleared in allied territory

Well played FE!

 

[BLubmuz]

We'd certainly have kept the war going if someone on our team would have figured out earlier that fallout can't be cleared in allied territory

Well played FE!

Thank you.
This is the result of intensive testing in the early stage. If you look at the early pages of this thread, you can see that we knew this from the beginning. In fact, i've said that this would have been a sort of conquest game. And i figured the "iceball cities" from the beginning. This was not enough for us to win this contest.

BTW i'm playing (a bit sloppily) the game just to see and try different approaches.
Well, i managed the GLH (Roos built the GW instead) and deGaulle built an useless city W, so i have taken all the French starting peninsula. But the most important thing is that Paris has Pyramids.

So, luck has a big part on those games.

 

[havr]

Happy new year!

Good job guys! Sorry I was MIA the last month... It was a little crazy, a newborn and 2 sets of parents visiting ( the parents were the hard part )
In any case, I doubt if I could have helped much. You are much better players than me... so I just watch with awe at the amazing stuff you do.

BL - sorry this was the second SGOTM I was MIA (the first one because of relocating, and the second one because I had a baby born). Hopefully the next (if you still want me) will be better.

 

[pnp_dredd]

Gratz all, and happy new year!

I'm very happy with the way that we played as a team. The early war was slightly risky, but could have paid off bigtime with a little more luck - at that stage we had more score (cities?) than anyone else, and if we could have taken another 2-3 cities in our initial assault then we would have been very well placed. We're clearly not going to out-micro the diety players, so we need to take some well-calculated strategic risks if we want to have a shot at medals.

Thanks all and I look forward to the next one!

 

[orb]

Congratulations on the finish guys. It looks like a reasonable time.

My apologies for not joining in. I lurked for a bit and then lost track of the game plan, then it was too late for me to re-join.

Hopefully I should have more time for the next SGOTM game as I'm not playing Civ 5 at all. (I have to get my wife to agree to spend money on a new machine....she thinks wallpaper is more important.)

Cheers and well done again.

 

[beestar]

After playing several games of Civ 5, I can recommend going for the wallpaper

 

[beestar]

Hey, is it true we could have scrubbed fallout in enemy territory while fighting a war? Maybe this could have shaved off a few turns, or avoided having to fight a war (?).

Also, apparently we can scrub-after-launch. I never thought to ask, I just assumed everything would trigger at the same time.

This could have been a straight space race followed by a fake scrubbing war, then peace treaties all around and submit save!

 

[pnp_dredd]

I wonder if it would require more military to take cities or to protect an enourmous army of workers in hostile territory? Also, with the negative diplo this was never going to be a straight space race!

I don't think that we took too many compromises on our teching through pursuing other goals.

 

[Fluroscent]

I don't think you can scrub until the enemy culture is gone? Is anyone doing this? (or planning to do it?)
Otherwise, I think we did play to launch quickly. Maybe one turn could have been gained by building less workers pre-launch or something, considering we got our other objectives done with turns to spare. Knowing that the space landing wasn't necessarily the submission date would have been nice to know though, but not a big deal.

I am wondering whether this fallout thing is completely intentional. It sort of fits badly with the whole atonement agenda that most teams reduce the AI to one city each

 

[unclethrill]

IIRC I actually did scrub while I was pushing into American territory inside his culture.

 

[kossin]

Yes, Scrub Fallout is possible while at war with the enemy. Actually, I suspect you can modify improvements as well while at war, the strange part is that roads/railroads can be added regardless since they are beneficial and scrubbing is beneficial but can't be done under peace...

The simple logistics behind defending worker stacks to SF in enemy territory is probably enough to warrant reducing the AI to 1 ice city by itself.

 

[beestar]

I just wonder if we could have fought two wars simultaneously - one real war with siege, and one fake war with largely defensive units (pikemen, riflemen, machine guns, whatever). Bring two defensive stacks with 5 workers each, each stack scrubs one tile every two turns ... it would take a long time, but could be done relatively cheaply.

 

[unclethrill]

We probably could have but I don't think we delayed the SS to clear FO or fight wars. While we said that the FO would be the limiting factor we still went all out for the SS so I don't think that would have help our end date much.

 

[BLubmuz]

Well, i made a lot of games starting from turn 119 (Fluro's unlucky war). Starting prior to this will give a completely different game, not comparable.

First, it's true that you can clean Fallout in foreign lands if you're at war. But i don't see how you can do it without a monster stack to protect your workers. And they will move slowly. Maintenance costs etc. Better take the cities, so they can be of some value.

BTW, i manage to took France virtually without losses, then even Hangzou (the Chinese city in front of Rheims). How i did it? I brought the first stack inside Rheims' culture, then when the main stack with cats and some few units arrived, i moved all units but a couple in the forests. dG sent many troops to defend Rheims, so i've found few defenders in Orleans and took it easily. Then caught many troops in the open. At that point dG has very few defenders in his cities and no chance to build metal units. Almost a parkwalk. Used the "cease fire" instead of the peace treaty, so i can start the war when i wish.

Then, the AI was close to Feud, so no point in wasting hammers suiciding units. Went wonder crazy, built MoM and Parthenon in CI and Pyramids in Moscow.
Wait to launch the GAge to complete MoM, priority to colonize islands (about the same cities placement we used), even traded for Nationalism with G (IIRC i gave him Edu, since i already has Lib for Steel).

At a certain point i think i started play a bit sloppily, but i think in the end we could have saved some 15 turns, more or less.

Tried to improve, but i can't see much, maybe some 5-10 more. This is the evidence that a game is decided in the early 80-90 turns. What i don't understand is that we were probably the first team to the Oracle, then we managed only a Bronze.

I think that randomness has a big part in this game. Finding Pyramids or the GLH in Paris would have made a big difference. And it happened in some attempt i made from the start. And playing the game exactly (or almost) as we did.

Well, now i'm sure about Bronze.

- Choko are past turn 300 and they have Fusion but not Composites yet.
- Xteam are on turn 287 and they have to discover Satellites
- OSS did not made mistakes and they should close around turn 260.

So it's Bronze, guys. Congrats to us

 

[beestar]

BL, interesting results from the tests! It's annoying to learn that it really is all in the early game. By the way, I forgot to mention this earlier, but very good move with the simultaneous completion of the spaceship parts.

I think ChokoMisfits are going to realize soon that the AI won't clear enough fallout in their own lands ...

I'm impressed with the quantity of micro and analysis that OSS are doing. It won't make any difference in the rankings, but of course they don't know that yet. And they're doing a good job of getting the best possible finish time.

I'll wait for the official notice before clearing a space in my medal cabinet

 

[pnp_dredd]

We'll get bronze by a fair margin, congrats all!

It seems that early Sushi was key on this map. Our early war was always going to slow Oxford and therefore subsequent teching, but it was a worthwhile gamble. As you demonstrated we could have had the French lands and been into China with better luck and better tactics. An extra 4-5 cities with minimal fallout at that point would have made a huge difference - there was a possibility that we would have had all of the French cities for ~50 more turns!

Going Mining Inc first may also have also cost us a few turns? But I don't think that was a critical point - it defiantely allowed us to go to 100% slider nice and early. Dunno how to evaluate Mining over Sushi?

Also, we learnt in previous games that earliest Oracle isn't necessarily the best strategy. In the SGOTM shaped like the world, Who Dat had the earliest Oracle, but that was clearly inferior to getting an earlier Academy in a game with fairly poor land and certain late-game techs which increased the value of the capital. The deadline for Oracle is "get it done before the AI" - I think that the best strategy is often to do as much as possible before building the Oracle (particularly getting an extra settler out if at all possible, or beginning GLH). But as always, gotta play the map! Clearly we played this map better than 7 other teams.

 

[BLubmuz]

BL, interesting results from the tests! It's annoying to learn that it really is all in the early game. By the way, I forgot to mention this earlier, but very good move with the simultaneous completion of the spaceship parts.

I think ChokoMisfits are going to realize soon that the AI won't clear enough fallout in their own lands ...

I'm impressed with the quantity of micro and analysis that OSS are doing. It won't make any difference in the rankings, but of course they don't know that yet. And they're doing a good job of getting the best possible finish time.

I'll wait for the official notice before clearing a space in my medal cabinet

Maybe you overlooked it, but the gold will be decided in the space of 2 turns or so. PD finished in 261, OSS are goin' to finish even earlier. They can make some small mistake or have bad luck and this can cost them the Gold.

So both those teams will win with some 40 turns on us and we probably are some 20 or more from the 4th.

We'll get bronze by a fair margin, congrats all!

It seems that early Sushi was key on this map. Our early war was always going to slow Oxford and therefore subsequent teching, but it was a worthwhile gamble. As you demonstrated we could have had the French lands and been into China with better luck and better tactics. An extra 4-5 cities with minimal fallout at that point would have made a huge difference - there was a possibility that we would have had all of the French cities for ~50 more turns!

Going Mining Inc first may also have also cost us a few turns? But I don't think that was a critical point - it defiantely allowed us to go to 100% slider nice and early. Dunno how to evaluate Mining over Sushi?

Also, we learnt in previous games that earliest Oracle isn't necessarily the best strategy. In the SGOTM shaped like the world, Who Dat had the earliest Oracle, but that was clearly inferior to getting an earlier Academy in a game with fairly poor land and certain late-game techs which increased the value of the capital. The deadline for Oracle is "get it done before the AI" - I think that the best strategy is often to do as much as possible before building the Oracle (particularly getting an extra settler out if at all possible, or beginning GLH). But as always, gotta play the map! Clearly we played this map better than 7 other teams.

My best (and improvable) attempt showed me that having too large cities thanks to CM (as we did) and running Caste can be a problem if 2 AIs run Emancipation. You can live with 1, but 2 start to show 5 , added to "we yearn to join our Motherland".

BTW i delayed OU even more, probably due to not hard use of the whip and despite i've run Representation since 900 AD or so, having some 120bpt while running at 0 science. I also has a ton of GSs (thanks to Parthenon).

In another test i even managed to take the Chinese city W of Hangzou and the English one right SW of it, but i was ruined, since my core was too underdeveloped.

Also, Pyramids where built thanks to a reload, since Roos beaten me by 1 turn. So i went back 3 turns, started a GAge, revolted to OR+Confu (much later than we did) and managed to beat him. I has also an indecent luck in luring dG's troops in the open and winning with WEs against spears. And i took Hangzou some 3 turns before Mao has LBs. And ProtectiveLBs were though even for cannons, as you well know.

In any case i think that MI can win on Sushi.

Then to answer to UT about Cossacks:
they're a great UU, but cannons means GP>Chem>Steel
Cossacks means GP>RP>Rifling>MT where MT is a dead-end tech. So i think PD has already a big advantage on us when they get them.

 

[kossin]

I'm impressed with the quantity of micro and analysis that OSS are doing. It won't make any difference in the rankings, but of course they don't know that yet. And they're doing a good job of getting the best possible finish time.

They are doing a very good use of that extra month AlanH gave. We kinda muscled our way to the end without thinking too much about things, really sub-optimal. Well played by OSS for that!

 

[Fluroscent]

Am I missing something, or are you guys handing out the awards prematurely? It seems OSS is aiming to finish the same exact date as PD. Their detailed management of the space race is pretty impressive.
Also, XTeam are not going to beat us for bronze, I agree. But I also think they are underestimating how fast they can finish from here. It will be quite close I predict, 4-5 turns or something.

Like I said earlier, we made some critical errors in the midgame that cost us the chance to compete for the top spots. But we also had a fair bit of bad luck. In the first war (even if we should have played it better, we still had the RNG against us), and roos building GLH+Colossus early, eventually making him such a beast that he won the Physics race. And not least the terrible tech choices of Gandhi. We had him set up to trade key techs like Nationalism and other useful techs around that time, but he chose to go for all the wrong techs instead.