SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

pnp_dredd · Sep 21, 2010

umm, I'm sure that my "worm" is also too large for feeding fishes.

I had another test with the horses this time. I still reckon that writing-wheel is a real contender, to get an early Academy, but at the cost of a few unhealthy turns and a few worker turns.

In this test, on turn 44 Moscow hit size 5 and completed the Library. I then ran fish, cow, gold + 2 scientists (requires workboat for clams) while building worker-worker-settler. There's room to optimise worker moves here (things don't really "fit" nicely). I used chops to speed the second worker and the settler.

ah-fish-writing-wheel-BW-ag-myst-med-priest-COL-math
worker-wb-warrior-(wb)-library-complete wb-worker-worker-settler-oracle
workers: cow, gold, road south, chop, rice, chop, gold, cow

Using BLubmuz's format:

- Oracle in Moscow turn 79 (completed, not IBT) with BW in
- Lots of excess beakers (pottery in 1 turn)
- Academy in Moscow turn 62
- 3 workers
- 3.5 warriors (or 1 warrior + stuff. Not a lot of excess production here)
- all the tiles in Moscow BFC (but one) scrubbed, all specials improved and most roaded, both nets operational
- 2 tiles in StPete BFC same
- 2 chops

unclethrill · Sep 21, 2010

So I'll play up to T19 when the worker is done and resave. It will be in about 6-8 hours till I have time.

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2010

pnp_dredd said:
umm, I'm sure that my "worm" is also too large for feeding fishes.

I had another test with the horses this time. I still reckon that writing-wheel is a real contender, to get an early Academy, but at the cost of a few unhealthy turns and a few worker turns.
(...)

- Oracle in Moscow turn 79 (completed, not IBT) with BW in
- 2 chops

the problem is those last 2 rows.
We *seem* to agree that we don't want the Oracle in Moscow, so my test went in that direction. I didn't used chops.
My problem was that Moscow took too long to grow. Maybe i need to further delay the warrior for the 2nd WB, pity if we lose a couple hammers spent in it.

I managed an Oracle-Academy on turn 80, but at the expenses of some production.

I think that before to test further, we need to decide, once and for all if the Oracle goes in Moscow or in StPete.

To say it clear, i think writing before wheel is a suicide: we need to road every single tile to avoid to throw away worker turns. Just to give an example, i have not roaded the SE cows, but it was a mistake, 'cause the worker turns saved were lost to avoid to lost more stacking a 2nd worker and consequently delayed the growth.

Now, back to test. I keep note while playing, to ease the report and the PPP for the players UP. For now, i keep the Oracle in StPete.

unclethrill · Sep 21, 2010

I agree in St. Pete for Oracle.

And it looks like I won't get to play Civ V tonight after all. They let me buy it from the American website but now they have decided that I'm not allowed to play until Thursday night! :cry:

Fluroscent · Sep 21, 2010

I really like going with 1 turn of worker, then wb, then finish worker. We grow to size 2 the same turn the wb finishes. And we can really use the 2nd worker early since we otherwise cannot keep up improvements with growth.

Now will try to compare the different approaches.
Counting oracle date, GS date, tech plus (how much more than the CS beeline), food plus, production plus, Extra GPP etc.
Extras production is not including the workboat for clams, and two warriors, and Moscow's library.
Worker tasks are generally the same in the end, due to the two workers build dates being consistent.

BLubmuz' turbo StP GS:

Building settler directly after 2nd worker.
-T76 Oracle, with GS due on T78 (academy T79).
-Moscow S6+13 :food:

, 56 GPP Extra
-Stp S3+2 :food:

-Only Agri extra
-A total of 35 :hammers:

extra, plus library in StP.

Very Early Academy (pnp_dredd style):

Teching writing before wheel, building library directly after 2nd worker.
-T76 Oracle
-T61 Academy
-Moscow size 7+4 :food:

(just grew), 13 GPP extra.
-StP size 3+8 :food:

-Only Agri extra
-A total of 90 :hammers:

extra

Oracle in size 1 StP. My favourite before horses.

Golds worked asap and continuously
-T78 Oracle
-T87 Academy
-IN confucianism (turn spent).
-BW extra
-1 chop
-Moscow size 7+3 :food:

-StP size 1+4 :food:

-A total of 203 :hammers:

extra (on T76)

My new favourite AKA all about Moscow (a bit of a hybrid):

Get the fast library by writing before wheel, but instead of employing scientists right away, we grow and work the golds. Late StP, since Moscow needs to grow first. Oracle in Moscow.
-Oracle T74!
-Academy T74! Thats right, same turn!
-AG extra. Can actually get Oracle T72 instead, but delay AG.
-Moscow size6+7 :food:

-StP size2+18 :food:

-61

extra
-All this on T74, so two turns to spare, and two extra turns with Bureau to make up numbers.

All in all, this last approach is easily ahead at this point.

Edit: lots of Xposts:

BLubmuz said:
We *seem* to agree that we don't want the Oracle in Moscow, so my test went in that direction.

That was before we learned that we had an extra hammer in Moscow.

BLubmuz said:
To say it clear, i think writing before wheel is a suicide: we need to road every single tile to avoid to throw away worker turns.

Try it out, it is not like we are not getting wheel soon after. Basically, we sacrifice little in terms of worker turns, since the time will be spent moving onto hills anyway, and thus the only "problem" is a few more turns without the health from cows.

unclethrill said:
And it looks like I won't get to play Civ V tonight after all. They let me buy it from the American website but now they have decided that I'm not allowed to play until Thursday night!

Wow, I will never understand why it works that way. Good thing there is an interesting Civ IV game going on then

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2010

hmm, CFC's server seems often busy, it should be the CV effect!

Great dates, Fluro!
But i'm still worried about the gene pollution in Moscow.

I also noticed that Moscow will waste a turn of growth if we start a 2nd worker after the first. I think it's better start a warrior and throw away the hammers.

I surely agree for 2nd worker after the WB is burnt on the net.

Turn 74, 76 and 78 are great dates. BW when?
Can you tell us some more on your attempts?

So, i think we must decide now where to build the Oracle. I won't scream too much for polluted gene in Moscow, since i'm proposing to build the GLH there.
But don't forget that StPete can have good production if we farm the 2 grasslands and mine the hills, thus it can build other wonders, like the Parthenon, or the Colossus, or the SoZ. No Paya, no Chicken, no Angkor, i think. Hammers wasted.

On another issue, i think that this game i will approve, if not encourage the use of slavery. We're creative, so we don't need the Artist specialist to expand the borders and probably we won't have cities capable to run many specialists. In case we can revolt during a GAge.

Fluroscent · Sep 21, 2010

BLubmuz said:
I also noticed that Moscow will waste a turn of growth if we start a 2nd worker after the first. I think it's better start a warrior and throw away the hammers.

I went ahead and tested it. By the time the 2nd worker is done, on T37, both ways have Moscow at size 2 with 3 :food:

stored. But building worker for 1T means we have 8 :hammers:

overflow, compared to building warrior for 1T, which yields 5 :hammers:

overflow, and that is the only difference. So there you have it, building warrior for 1T instead of worker costs exactly 3 :hammers:

.

BLubmuz said:
Can you tell us some more on your attempts?

I can try to extrapolate, but I'd like to focus on the most promising approach, the last one.
Of course, I am going to want Oracle in Moscow, since the problem with getting it in StP is that we either delay Moscows growth to found it early, or we delay our techs to add chops that are not needed.

I think we established that a polluted gene pool in Moscow is just fine. We are not looking to use it as a GPfarm. If we pop another GP there, then it is not even clear that a GS is better than a GPro or GM. And while GLH is an obvious build, there is also Colossus, which might be very profitable too. Where to find the productivity other than Moscow for wonderspamming?

I'll go ahead and plot down a detailed MM draft plan.

BLubmuz said:
On another issue, i think that this game i will approve, if not encourage the use of slavery. We're creative, so we don't need the Artist specialist to expand the borders and probably we won't have cities capable to run many specialists. In case we can revolt during a GAge.

It looks like it there will be no immediate use for either slavery or caste system, so we can surely wait on that. Neither Moscow nor StP are well suited for whipping yet. I guess we could add caste to our bureau switch, which could allow us to run a couple of specs in StP if we have no immediate hammer projects, maybe merchants to indirectly make StP use the bureau/academy bonus too.
We will want slavery, and OR, when the time comes to build universities for Oxford. A GA to switch to slavery+OR is an option, but that probably requires we go for music.

Fluroscent · Sep 21, 2010

Ok, I tried to replay it, but I seem to have done something different that I have forgotten, but it is for the better actually, since I now have T75 oracle/academy. 1 turn later, but a scouting workboat out T57, and StP size 3 with 10 :food:

stored, and 81 :hammers:

produced rather than 61 :hammers:

. So a hefty growth improvement at the cost of 1 turn later oracle/academy.

I believe we can get even faster Academy+Oracle if we delay building the Settler till size6, but I think we want StP in case we need to build chariots. Same reasoning for teching AG, we get StP up and running faster.

MM log

Spoiler :

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2010

Fluroscent said:
I went ahead and tested it. By the time the 2nd worker is done, on T37, both ways have Moscow at size 2 with 3 stored. But building worker for 1T means we have 8 overflow, compared to building warrior for 1T, which yields 5 overflow, and that is the only difference. So there you have it, building warrior for 1T instead of worker costs exactly 3.

What i don't understand is:
If you start a warrior and switch to WB when Fishing is in, Moscow start growing. Before to reach size 2, you need another turn after the WB is finished and on the fish, so you'll continue the warrior for another turn, reach size 2 and immediately switch to a worker, working the cows and the fish net.

But, if you start a worker right after the first one, you still need 2 turns to grow to 2, so in any case you must start the warrior before restarting the worker, and you grow 2 1 turn later, losing 2g. No overflow of any kind, since you switch production.

Please explain.

Fluroscent · Sep 21, 2010

I think you are probably not switching to the cleared cow tile when you can. When you do that, the WB will finish the same turn as Moscow grows to size 2. And that is true whether or not you have the extra 2 :food:

from building a warrior for 1T.

When the WB completes, and the overflow goes into a worker, the food is converted to hammers, and that is the simple source of the 3 :hammers:

deficit. You simply spend 3 :hammers:

on a warrior that could have gone into the worker immediately

Hope that makes sense

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2010

Fluroscent said:
T25
Switch to cow tile 3

T75
Oracle/Academy done[/SPOILER]

That move on turn 25 can be the key. Let me see.

If we have the chance to found Hindu, should we go for it? It'd cost 1 turn or so compared to Meditation.

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2010

Fluroscent said:
I think you are probably not switching to the cleared cow tile when you can. When you do that, the WB will finish the same turn as Moscow grows to size 2. And that is true whether or not you have the extra 2 from building a warrior for 1T.

When the WB completes, and the overflow goes into a worker, the food is converted to hammers, and that is the simple source of the 3 deficit. You simply spend 3 on a warrior that could have gone into the worker immediately

Hope that makes sense

Yes, Xpost. Let me try.
The server is goin' crazy today, over 3500 people on line at the same time.

unclethrill · Sep 21, 2010

As suspected, nothing important happened other than finishing the worker.
Here is the save.

Summary:

T17 G ready to trade agri. Too bad he hates us!
T19 Worker Finished. Selected worker to build but only as place holder. Fishing 1 turn away.

Autolog:

Spoiler :

cas · Sep 21, 2010

I've been following along with all the discussion. I'd like to play the next turnset because I think there will be some mm, but not as much as the 3rd/4th turnset.

I will look at Fluro's mm detail post tonight and try to replicate it on the test save so I have some practice before the real save.

I am ok with Oracle in Moscow and polluting the gene pool. My limited tests agreed with Fluro's opinion on that.

cas

unclethrill · Sep 21, 2010

Fluroscent said:
And while GLH is an obvious build, there is also Colossus, which might be very profitable too. Where to find the productivity other than Moscow for wonderspamming?

Before we talk about wonder spamming, I think we need to bring up the point that as a team FE tends to wonder spam on a regular basis. We always plan not to but then we always seem to find a justification. I think we need to decide now, what wonders to target, justify their need to our goals and list them so that we can all concentrate on them and only them. Just building wonders because we can will guarantee another middle of the pack and I think this group can do better than that.

BLubmuz said:
If we have the chance to found Hindu, should we go for it? It'd cost 1 turn or so compared to Meditation.

First of all, I doubt we will get a chance to found it but the bottom line is which one is better for our goals. We will found Confucianism so we will have a religion. We don't need multiple religions right now. We will be warring so we can capture a holy city if we want to. And finally, the more religions that are spread around, the more the AI will dislike each other and that will help to stop a multi-front war hopefully. The most important factor IMO is the fact that Polytheism is a pre-req for Literature and the GLib should be a targeted wonder (again IMHO).

Fluroscent · Sep 21, 2010

No news is good news here. I support cas for next set. As for the plan, I guess it is mostly up to BLubmuz to agree or disagree on what I have outlined.

worker(1T)-wb-worker, with the worker completed on T37 seems to be a consensus now, with the possible point of discussion whether we go writing-wheel, or wheel-writing. In either case, T37 seems like a natural endpoint for the next set.

Fluroscent · Sep 21, 2010

unclethrill said:
Before we talk about wonder spamming, I think we need to bring up the point that as a team FE tends to wonder spam on a regular basis. We always plan not to but then we always seem to find a justification. I think we need to decide now, what wonders to target, justify their need to our goals and list them so that we can all concentrate on them and only them. Just building wonders because we can will guarantee another middle of the pack and I think this group can do better than that.

Agreed, but it is not my nature to wonderspam normally, so I am likely to pass on what I don't think is a good deal. Last game I dismissed GLH, but as it turns out, it was absolutely crucial for the winning team, so it goes both ways. I mentioned Colossus only because it is likely to be easily available, cheap (if we do have copper), and with great synergy with this particular bureau capital. We are likely to be first to MC, and we want a forge anyway, so it is not a matter of pursuing it with vigor, but rather picking it up if it is practical at the time.

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2010

cas said:
I've been following along with all the discussion. I'd like to play the next turnset because I think there will be some mm, but not as much as the 3rd/4th turnset.

I will look at Fluro's mm detail post tonight and try to replicate it on the test save so I have some practice before the real save. (...)

OK, we have to decide yet how many turns and if it's better The Wheel or Writing. I need to test more, i want try to reproduce and possibly improve Fluro's test.
For now, i'm sure his move to work the unimproved cows to compensate to have a worker started for 1 turn works. So, when the cows are cleaned, work them. 1 turn of delay changes nothing, in any case.

the build queue should be:
worker> switch to WB after 1 turn> complete worker.
what is sure is that you will scrub/improve the SE cows, then move the worker to the W cows.
If we decide for the wheel first, we'll discuss what is better.

OK UT, not a great effort

you can prove yourself in next TS

BLubmuz · Sep 21, 2010

Fluroscent said:
No news is good news here. I support cas for next set. As for the plan, I guess it is mostly up to BLubmuz to agree or disagree on what I have outlined.

worker(1T)-wb-worker, with the worker completed on T37 seems to be a consensus now, with the possible point of discussion whether we go writing-wheel, or wheel-writing. In either case, T37 seems like a natural endpoint for the next set.

Sure, i already updated page 1.

I think that in 24 hours we can have enough arguments for writing first or wheel first
i'd like to try an early Academy, to see how it works.
Now that we decided for the Oracle in Moscow, StPete can wait (not much).

About wonders: the Colossus is not a great wonder, but it's cheap and it has some advantages not being financial.
Sure the GLib is a must. Let's find Marble!

havr · Sep 21, 2010

pnp_dredd said:
For reference, stolen from the WD SGOTM 10 thread, the leader traits:

Gandhi

Spoiler :

faves: Universal Sufferage, Hinduism
traits: PHI, SPI
UU: Fast worker
UB: Mausoleum

Favors: culture
Peaceweight: 10
Builds Wonders: 1 (very rarely)
Peace Military: 1 (rarely)
Aggression: 1 (very low)
Espionage: 1 (minimal)
Tech Trading: willing, 20%
Peace probability: 20/70/100/100 (will not declare at Pleased)
Attack Courage: 1 (normal)
Will raze city: never
Refuses to talk delay: moderate
Warmonger respect: 0

Diplo
Fave Civic: Universal sufferage (+6)
Same Religion: +4 max
Different religion: -1 initial
Close borders: -2 max
Worse/Better rank: 0/+1

Gandhi will always trade techs, maps, open borders

Roosevelt

Spoiler :

faves: Mercantilism
traits: IND, ORG
UU: Navy SEAL
UB: Mall

Favors: production, gold
Peaceweight: 8
Builds Wonders: (sometimes)
Peace Military: (sometimes)
Aggression: (quite low)
Espionage: (high)
Tech Trading: willing, 30%
Peace probability: 10/50/90/100 (will declare at Pleased!)
Attack Courage: (normal)
Will raze city: never
Refuses to talk delay: long
Warmonger respect: 1

Diplo
Fave Civic: Mercantilism (+5)
Shared war: +3 max
Same Religion: +3 max
Different religion: 0 initial
Close borders: -3 max
Worse/Better rank: -1/+2

Churchill

Spoiler :

faves: Nationhood
traits: CHA, PRO
UU: Redcoat
UB: Stock Exchange

Favors: military, gold
Peaceweight: 6
Builds Wonders: (very rarely)
Peace Military: (moderate)
Aggression: (medium)
Espionage: (high)
Tech Trading: willing, 30%
Peace probability: 20/70/100/100 (will not declare at Pleased!)
Attack Courage: (normal)
Will raze city: never
Refuses to talk delay: medium
Warmonger respect: 0

Diplo
Fave Civic: Nationhood (+5 max)
Shared war: +4 max
Same Religion: +3 max
Different religion: -1 initial
Close borders: -2 max
Worse/Better rank: 0/0

Mao

Spoiler :

faves: State Property
traits: EXP,PRO
UU: Cho-Ko-Nu
UB: Pavilion

Favors: growth, production
Peaceweight: 1
Builds Wonders: (very rarely)
Peace Military: (moderate)
Aggression: (medium)
Espionage: (very high)
Tech Trading: averse, 50%
Peace probability: 0/30/80/100 (will declare at Pleased!)
Attack Courage: (high)
Will raze city: never
Refuses to talk delay: medium
Warmonger respect: 2

Diplo
Fave Civic: State Property (+6 max)
Shared war: +3 max
Same Religion: +2 max
Different religion: 0 initial
Close borders: -2 max
Worse/Better rank: 0/0

De Gaulle

Spoiler :

faves: Nationhood
traits: IND, CHA
UU: Musketeer
UB: Salon

Favors: production, growth
Peaceweight: 0
Builds Wonders: (very rarely)
Peace Military: (moderate)
Aggression: (high)
Espionage: (intensive)
Tech Trading: moderate, 40%
Peace probability: 20/70/100/100 (will not declare at Pleased)
Attack Courage: (normal)
Will raze city: never
Refuses to talk delay: short
Warmonger respect: 2

Diplo
Fave Civic: Nationhood (+4 max)
Shared war: +6 max
Same Religion: +3 max
Different religion: 0 initial
Close borders: -2 max
Worse/Better rank: -2/+2 (respects his betters)

Stalin

Spoiler :

faves: State Property
traits: IND, AGG
UU: Cossack
UB: Research Institute

favors: military, production
builds wonders: often
trains units: often
aggression level: high
espionage level: extreme
tech trading: averse, 80%
peace probability (%): 10/50/90/100 (will declare at Pleased)
attack courage: high
will raze city: sometimes
refuses to talk delay: medium
warmonger respect: 1

Diplo
favourite civic: State Property (max. +6)
share war: max. +3
same religion: max. +2
different religion: 0
close cultural borders: max. 2
worse/better rank difference: 3/0

The one thing that I noticed is that only Stalin is a wonder-monger.
All others are "very rarely" except mao which is "sometimes".
Not too much wonder competition.
BUT if someone will steal Oracle from us it will probably be Stalin.

SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

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