SGOTM 12 - Ivan

[nerovats]

Just quick reply for now (have to work now).

France is at tech parity for now, according to civassist.

Japan had just a few units when I contacted them and when we got SoZ they got an expensive archer or whatever they got. They look like a good target to me. Close and weak. Agree to get market and lib before war. We will need some time to get some AC's anyway.

Not sure about selling to many techs, I sold some as I expected the AI to get them by their selves as at some point they appeared to catch up quickly. Most civs are still behind.

We're currently at war with 2 civ's, India and Rome if I remember correctly.

 

[I. Larkin]

Just quick reply for now (have to work now).

France is at tech parity for now, according to civassist.

Japan had just a few units when I contacted them and when we got SoZ they got an expensive archer or whatever they got. They look like a good target to me. Close and weak. Agree to get market and lib before war. We will need some time to get some AC's anyway.

Not sure about selling to many techs, I sold some as I expected the AI to get them by their selves as at some point they appeared to catch up quickly. Most civs are still behind.

We're currently at war with 2 civ's, India and Rome if I remember correctly.

Thanks for reply, nerovats. I did not see France with my civassist. Anybody else?
glenmetz up and i do see reason in his arguments.
Basically it means, what we research next:
Literature, MMaking or Currency?
I do not like an idea to build "swords, swords, swords", because it will ruin our economy.
Swords are useless withou ships.
So, "if" it will be free tech, let go for MM and build Harbor and Dormons. I think we have to have library at GA, so Literature next. try to avoid GA before lib. Since we need only 15 spt, we will work on Ivory (did we road forest?) and see tiles.
War, I think with India first. It is extra lux + forpost on big land + Dormon will use bombard strength. We are at war already. . With ship chain they closer, then Japan. I think, before landing better to have MA(s) vs India.
Next, I think will be Atzteks. Japan will help. Or Maya. (Inka will help).
I do not share optimizm about weak AIs. They have nothing to build and, therefore soon will have 44 units.

 

[nerovats]

Now you make me doubt about France. All civs we contacted are at par or less to us (just Ottomans have poly). If France is not part of that they could have a lead as they have Colossus, and Paris is huge. I expect the ai to get MM very soon so I'd prefer to get curency in stead of MM, then start on lit. Build market, hope someone will have researched lit but no real hope on that. Conquest will determine corruption based on city rank in build order (as part of calculation), I think we should take that into account in what city to take first. Not so sure about weak civs. Lot of times the AI wil have at least 1 city on a wonder. We sould take a resource-less ci first though. Will write mor tomorrow after opening the save again. Will think about war, might not be neccesary to delay war for a lib, the ai will still researcresonably fast, an we might be better of taking some cities first, and trade with other civ with our curret tech lead. If AT can upload his bic file I can try a game tomorrow as well. Don't know how that works but will figure it out. Thus far this game is developing differently from what I expected.

 

[glenmetz]

Alright, I've got it. If I reach any crossroads I will stop and ask for advice. Are we playing 20 or 10 turns???

If we win the Philo race, wouldn't it be best to take whichever tech is the most costly in terms of beakers/turns??? Also, it would be worth more on the open market. Doesn't the AI research MM often? It may be better to take something like Literature or Currency if they are worth more and try to trade for MM. Either way, either of them would give us our next build (Market, Library, or Harbor).

OK, maybe Swords, Swords, Swords wasn't the best way to state it. Sword, Sword, Dromon is probably better. But no Dromons until the time is right to spark our GA.

I will see what I can do about India. If I can get a force big enough (10-15 units), I will attempt to land there.

I'll could play this tonight, but I'm open for waiting until tomorrow for more open discussion as well amongst the group. Actually, I can wait, I've got another SG to play tonight as well.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

the free tech has to be either currency, construction or CoL - France will have mapmaking in 3-5 turns if they have collosus and are at tech parity with us, and others will get it soon after.

 

[I. Larkin]

Basically it means, what we research next:
Literature, MMaking or Currency?

.
I put in our Warmagedon thread diagram with tech prises. (for us x 40, for AI x24).
AFAIK, France research construction first. But, they may be at MA already as have GA after Pyramids. Vikings normally go to MM. Greeks normaly pick up Literature. So, for the trade purposes better to take Currency. But if Phylo will not work I think MM is the only option. Hopefully with Ottos Politheism we will manage trade it out...

I will see what I can do about India. If I can get a force big enough (10-15 units), I will attempt to land there.

My hope is MA with Maya. Just stay at Hills and wait good moment. Not to go to MA to early. Just few turns before landing...

 

[Nitfan]

Larkin I'm going to stick with nerovats on this one. I think we need to take out a resource less civ first. Not only that, Japan is one dromon in a canal away. I almost guarantee that all civs are already at the their unit limit so we might as well pick one without horses or iron.

As far as building swords, unless we are going to put constantinople on wealth then we have nothing else to build right now. Yes it is going to ruin our economy and we are going to be stretched real thin for a while on cash and research will almost stop. We have no other choice, 5 units over the limit (17 total - 4AC, 3MP, 3Dromon, ~4 swords, 3 curraghs still exploring) basically pins our backs against wall which is why we need to start expanding NOW and plan to have enough cities to catch up later. Obviously we will need boats too when we get MM as the swords won't swim across the channel.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

one problem is that each new city won't help that much with unit costs - a size 12 city provides 3 more unit support - but needs 3 units for MP duty, so it's a wash. Actually, we will be better off pretty quickly with making specialist farms for scientists.

have I mentioned that this is kind of a wierd variant???

btw - has anyone seen any barbs yet? they are set to roaming - barb galleys might be as big a problem for us than AI galleys for awhile.

 

[nerovats]

No haven't spoted a single barb, I asume the AI is taking care of those.

 

[nerovats]

Looked at save again, we didn't contact France yet, so not sure if we get free tech or not, but seems likely.
About war, I still think we should invade Japan first, it's close so easy to get reinforcements, need less shipd to transport ships and they lack resources, if they put a colony on the horse it's easy pillaging. Then take on Aztecs from there. They also got loads of ivory and are close so will give lot of commerce for science. Also all cities should be productive after we take them. Then move to the Indian island. We should try to get both Japan and India before they get their UU, as both of them are strong.
In 13 turns we will have 3 AC's can get 4 dromons and 5 swords. But maybe better to wait 5 more turns to get another AC, 2 swords and 1 dromon. Give Japan some tech with a free wonder a few turns before invasion that way they will only have 1 city building reinforcements, we can outproduce that, as we get AC's too.

 

[glenmetz]

I'm playing the turnset now. If anything comes up, I will stop and ask for advice.

 

[glenmetz]

IBT
Philo in and we get Currency for free!!!!!
Constantinople Sword->Marketplace
Swing a Trade with Otto
Poly for HbR, Writing, and IW
Science to CoL at 100, in 15-1gpt (hoping I can trade for MM)

1725BC (1)
Moving workers to Irrigated tiles to turn to Mines once we hit Size 12 (no sense in wasting all of that extra food, might as well get some shields)
Curraghs exploring

IBT
zzzz

1700BC (2)
Workers Mine tile 1SE of Constantinople

IBT
zzzz

1675BC (3)
Meet the Arabs, we are up Philo and Currency on them

IBT
SoZ produces an AC

1650BC (4)
Workers start mine on Tiles in NE of Constantinople

IBT
Japan is building The Great Lighthouse (obviously the have MM, will have to try and trade for it)

1625BC (5)
Trade Philo and Poly for MM+32 Gold with Japan

IBT
Constantinople Marketplace->Harbor

1600BC (6)
Workers now Mining tile 1 NW of Constantinople

IBT
Japanese are building MoM
Dutch and Persians are building The Great Lighthouse

1575BC (7)
Harbor is going to overrun 10 shields, buy 4 beakerheads for a turn
Spot an English Curragh, we are up Philo, MM, Poly and Currency

IBT
Constantinople Harbor->Sword

1550BC (8)
MM a bit here, trying to produce 15 shields a turn so we can get 2 turn Swords or Dromons. Max shields is 23, if we mine the cows and the last Irovy, we could make 26. If a BG is under the Jungle, we can turn 28. Right now, there are 4 beakers. CoL is in 7-6. I tried to find a better way, but this is a 6 and one half dozen scenario. If we work the forested elephants, its the same. If we could make 30 shields somehow, life would be grand. I move the workers to the jungle to clear it.

IBT
SoZ produces an AC
Paris completes the ToA

1525BC (9)
Meet the Zulu, we are up Masonry, Alpha, and Myst
Hittites get CoL

IBT
Otto wants Philo, I tell him to go to hell
Constantinople Sword->Dromon
Hittites are building The Great Lighthouse

1500BC (10)
zzzzz

IBT
zzzzz

1475BC (11)
zzzzz

IBT
Constantinople Dromon->Dromon
Russians are building The Great Library

1450BC (12)
Meet the Scandinavians, they have CoL and Construction and will not trade Construction, yet
Trade with Russia, they give Literature and 3gold for MM
Trade with Scandinavia, they give Construction and 11 gold for Philo and Literature
Change build in Constantinople to Library and MM a bit for 2 turn build

IBT
zzzzz

1425BC (13)
Sell techs to anyone with more then 10 gold, we now have over 350 gold. Also, we are getting 2/turn from France.

This is it for me. CoL is in next turn and we'll be in the Middle Ages. We are SOOOOO far ahead of the curve in terms of tech we may want to turn Science down to 0 at this point to support a military for an overthrow. Japan is very logical, they are building at least 1 wonder at this point. Military wise, we have the following:
2 Warriors
1 Spear
2 Swords
1 Dromon
5 Curraghs
I don't know on ACs, but I believe 3 or 4

If I had to look back, the only thing I would do differently was turn research off once we got Philo. Sort of wasted some beakers/gold on researching CoL.

I'm posting the Save now in the Maintenance Thread

 

[Nitfan]

I am both a little surprised and relieved we were able to pull the free tech in. That is going to be huge in the grand scheme of things. So what are everyone's thoughts as far as a plan for invading Japan?

After thinking about it, it may not be a bad idea to MA with Aztecs. I was only worried they would take cities before we could but we should be able to come in behind them quick enough.

 

[glenmetz]

In terms or going after Japan, I would recommend landing troops behind thier northern city. That way our troops can only be attacked from one side, even if they have to land in a jungle tile. I think there may be a worker there now, but he should be gone in a couple of turns.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

sweeet...

350 gold - that's enough to support a pretty hefty military campaign right there

A couple of things: I'm going to try gifting the scientific AI into the middle ages - I doubt I'll be able to get all the first tier techs for free and get invention or theology for free, but I'll try. I'll research towards education - if I am able to get theo for free, I might get it - I'm not sure how much it costs.

question for everyone: do I then start research on astronomy?

I'll get the save and post a screenie of japan/aztec, and I'll start the convo about how to make the attack.

btw - apparently, in conquests... you can land on tiles that have workers.

 

[nerovats]

Not that sure about gifting ai into MA. Now our AC and swords will do the job but against pikes we'll have some difficulties. Maybe we could give those civs that are further away. I would like to take the first ring of islands asap, keep peace with the rest.
About research we do need a uni and any scientific wonder will help, but I think an army will be a better investment. Do keep science as high as possible.

 

[I. Larkin]

Why we did not descover Literature? We agreed, that for GA we nee Library!
What use of CoL?

This is it for me. CoL is in next turn and we'll be in the Middle Ages. We are SOOOOO far ahead of the curve in terms of tech we may want to turn Science down to 0 at this point to support a military for an overthrow.

Disagree comlitely.
We have to get Monotheism and go to Education ASAP.
Anybody know how to get Monotheism as free tech?
Agree with AT, that we have to gift to Sci Civs to get Eng and Feudalism

 

[I. Larkin]

sweeet...

350 gold - that's enough to support a pretty hefty military campaign right there

1) couple of things: I'm going to try gifting the scientific AI into the middle ages - I doubt I'll be able to get all the first tier techs for free and get invention or theology for free, but I'll try.
2) I'll research towards education - if I am able to get theo for free, I might get it - I'm not sure how much it costs.

3) question for everyone: do I then start research on astronomy?

4) I'll get the save and post a screenie of japan/aztec, and I'll start the convo about how to make the attack.

5) btw - apparently, in conquests... you can land on tiles that have workers.

3) Yes, it is we go to Astronomy, but will build Uni first. (I am not sure, waht our Market for, may be we sell it when short of cash).
2) Mono more expensive, than Feo. We can/t get Theo for free.
4) I did not found resonable arguments to go vs Japan. We have embassy and they may help vs Atztek. Also, it is Risky to live troops on water. Even Curragh may sink Galley. Peace wiyh Rome?
India alowed ship chain.
AT, plese, do not play until consensus.
1) Please, not now. Wait, when situation will be resolved.
5) Are you sure? Never heard about it.

 

[glenmetz]

We have Lit, I traded for it. The only AA tech we don't have is CoL. I was sure we could trade for the rest, and I was right. I was hoping CoL could be more useful then Lit in terms of trade. Looking back, the best thing once the free tech was in was turning off Science and banking the cash. The AI would have done the rest of the research for us. I was able to easily trade for all of the AA techs we didn't have. I got CoL about 3 turns after meeting Scandinavia.

 

[nerovats]

Why we did not descover Literature?

We agreed to currency, you say it yourselve too.

I thought some more about science, I think education asap, gift ai into MA to gain extra techs like AT suggested. I always have bit of difficulties in focussing getting 1 goal asap. If we want to win the SGOTM we need to take some risk. Usually I don't gift ai on high levels, to keep them as weak as possible.

Not that sure about scientific wonders. We need them but we need some extra cities before we start on those, then we can expand from those and keep our capitol for maximizing commerce.

The market will help with happines, will work even better when getting 1 or 2 extra luxes, don't sell it.