Mitchum
Deity
That works for me. Happy Holidays, everyone!!
SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Ok. Happy holidays! 
While we're on holiday...
T206-208: 2t revolt into FM+
T194-212: drop off in cpt is odd. Most likely it's new and/or newly-captured cities hiring and firing artists?
Not sure what else he means, other than probable usage of culture slider in the end game. Sushi should give somewhere in the order of 4-5k per 50 cities, and they must have 500 in base culture, if not more. Our total commerce in GA is currently 1200c, so theirs must be approaching 2000c in the end. That would be about 20-30% slider, assuming all cities with Sushi, but could be more without 50-city Sushi.
Here it is:Duckweed said:
Code:
DATE SCORE CULTURE CPT
180 - 1200 2,127 10,215
192 - 1320 2,527 12,730 210
194 - 1340 2,719 13,435 353
202 - 1420 3,248 16,025 324
206 - 1460 3,712 17,350 331
208 - 1480 3,875 17,350 0
212 - 1510 4,358 18,620 318
218 - 1540 4,403 21,155 423
223 - 1565 4,666 24,410 651
228 - 1590 5,096 32,290 1,576
233 - 1615 5,969 49,710 3,484
239 - 1645 6,813 79,385 4,946
244 - 1670 7,931 116,125 7,348
250 - 1700 9,031 166,110 8,331
260 - 1750 10,724 258,420 9,231T194-212: drop off in cpt is odd. Most likely it's new and/or newly-captured cities hiring and firing artists?
Not sure what else he means, other than probable usage of culture slider in the end game. Sushi should give somewhere in the order of 4-5k per 50 cities, and they must have 500 in base culture, if not more. Our total commerce in GA is currently 1200c, so theirs must be approaching 2000c in the end. That would be about 20-30% slider, assuming all cities with Sushi, but could be more without 50-city Sushi.
bcool
Deity
They might have captured the sistine chapel which would add a lot of culture too since they would be running 10+ specialists in a lot of cities.
Mitchum
Deity
What I find interesting is the HUGE spike in power at the same time. Power is a function of military units, some techs, some buildings and population (every even pop in each city gives just 1K, so this can't account for too much of it). Do you think they built that many units near the end to make their power spike like that? It seems like overkill (i.e. taking a bazooka to a fight when a pea shooter would have done the trick).
EDIT: I guess modern warefare does add a lot of power:
EDIT: I guess modern warefare does add a lot of power:
18000 soldiers SAM Infantry, Artillary
20000 soldiers Infantry, Stealth Bomber
22000 soldiers Mobile SAM
24000 soldiers Jet Fighter
26000 soldiers Gunship, Mobile Artillary
28000 soldiers Marine, Navy SEAL, Submarine
30000 soldiers Paratrooper, Tank, Panzer, Destroyer, Stealth Destroyer, Attack Submarine, Tactical Nuke
32000 soldiers Mechanized Infantry
40000 soldiers Modern Armour, Battleship, ICBM
20000 soldiers Infantry, Stealth Bomber
22000 soldiers Mobile SAM
24000 soldiers Jet Fighter
26000 soldiers Gunship, Mobile Artillary
28000 soldiers Marine, Navy SEAL, Submarine
30000 soldiers Paratrooper, Tank, Panzer, Destroyer, Stealth Destroyer, Attack Submarine, Tactical Nuke
32000 soldiers Mechanized Infantry
40000 soldiers Modern Armour, Battleship, ICBM
Culture: I'm just really curious about his "most important factor in the game".
Good point, bcool. That might be part of the T244 spike.
Similar - Broadway/R'N'R for the happy.
Power:
3 mil soldiers is really a lot for this kind of game. The more interesting thing is just how consistent that graph is - they seemed to build up at a steady rate throughout the late game.
One thing comes to mind - they may have boosted Gandhi and Roosevelt much more heavily then we did, for trading/stealing (resulting in a need for a big modern army). I think we've actually slightly out-expanded them to this point, and beaten them to Sushi. Yet, they're slightly ahead in score - which presumably means tech lead.
Another thing: Nationhood and barracks everywhere - we've talked about this. 50 cities = 150,000 soldiers.
Good point, bcool. That might be part of the T244 spike.
Similar - Broadway/R'N'R for the happy.
Power:
3 mil soldiers is really a lot for this kind of game. The more interesting thing is just how consistent that graph is - they seemed to build up at a steady rate throughout the late game.
One thing comes to mind - they may have boosted Gandhi and Roosevelt much more heavily then we did, for trading/stealing (resulting in a need for a big modern army). I think we've actually slightly out-expanded them to this point, and beaten them to Sushi. Yet, they're slightly ahead in score - which presumably means tech lead.
Another thing: Nationhood and barracks everywhere - we've talked about this. 50 cities = 150,000 soldiers.
Mitchum
Deity
Merry Christmas, Feliz Navidad, Happy Hanukkah and Cirque du Soleil to all of you!! 
Merry Christmas to all!
CURRENT FALLOUT COUNT = 178
In counting them, I did this:
Worthwhile, or later? Kinda messy - I'd find it hard to play. Didn't save, but didn't take very long either.
Spoiler :
In counting them, I did this:
Spoiler :
Worthwhile, or later? Kinda messy - I'd find it hard to play. Didn't save, but didn't take very long either.
Some general thoughts (feel free to trash):
(3) I started a summary of cities today, but had no idea how to usefully organize the data. Then I remembered this:
MOSCOW
Current population = 24
Current health = 25
Current unhealth = 25 (-1 Forge)
Current happy = 30 (including +2 from Nationhood)
Current unhappy = 24
Food surplus working all good tiles = 19fpt @ Pop 19 (will increase with more Sushi resources)
Target population = 29 (if we get more Sushi food, and other cities don't justify slider, just nix stuff like grass farm, etc.)
I think we wanna build Fact/CP/Hosp asap. That's a total of 600h, which Moscow can do in exactly 5t if it starts now - (62h OF + 92h GA turn + 320h 4 non-GA turns)*1.25. Or, slower if we really need the wealth-building to finish Physics.
Someone else can improve the graphics on the above.
(4) I'm gonna try to look up formulas for city maintenance, civic upkeep and inflation, and wire some spreadsheets.
Don't quite know how to estimate research rate.
- (1) After AL-Astro-Physics we have no immediate need for any techs (I think). Industrialism is obviously nice to have, so we see just how screwed we might be for Aluminum (one under Stalingrad?), but not necessary just yet. Should we just invest max in corp spread after this?
- (2) We need to re-figure our gpp now.
- (3) We need some kind of analysis of cities, with a plan for production and research multipliers, as well as happy buildings that are worth doing prior to wealth building. This is the really difficult bit, I find.
- (4) Some kind of useful analysis of research rate and gold loss over the next 30-40t. Is that possible to do accurately?
- (5) Longer term Which cities are building SS parts, and what sort of production capacity do they have?
- (6) Longer term War plans for Stalin and Roosevelt / fallout-clearing plan.
- (7) What else?
(3) I started a summary of cities today, but had no idea how to usefully organize the data. Then I remembered this:
I've spent some time today looking at cities. How about this:Something like this for each city would be useful (at least for me):
Moscow
Target Population: 25 (currently 21 w/+7and -1
)
Primary function(s): Production, Military, Science, mutt GPs
Corporations: Already has Sushi. Needs Mining ASAP.
Great People this city will generate a great person on T211 and again for the 5 person GA.
Infrastructure: all science multipliers, all hammer multipliers (including levee), all health buildings, we should never reach the happy cap unless WW gets really bad
General: work all improved tiles but make sure not to get too much OF, hire spies/engineers then fill in with scientists as long as the city can still produce a future great person, after that, just run scientists
I don't know if the above is true, but having something like this would make all of our planning much easier. Maybe this is too much to ask...
I'll work on it, but it won't be until Monday in all likelyhood. Would this help you guys too or should I just shelf it?
MOSCOW
Current population = 24
Current health = 25
Current unhealth = 25 (-1 Forge)
- Hospital = +3 (200h)
- Recycling Centre = +1 (Forge) +4 (Fact/Coal/RI) (300h)
- Factory = -1 (250h)
- Coal Plant = -2 (150h)
- Research Institute = -1 (250h)
Current happy = 30 (including +2 from Nationhood)
Current unhappy = 24
- Theatre = +1 +1/10%
- We don't really wanna spend hammers on stuff like temples and colosseum
Food surplus working all good tiles = 19fpt @ Pop 19 (will increase with more Sushi resources)
Target population = 29 (if we get more Sushi food, and other cities don't justify slider, just nix stuff like grass farm, etc.)
I think we wanna build Fact/CP/Hosp asap. That's a total of 600h, which Moscow can do in exactly 5t if it starts now - (62h OF + 92h GA turn + 320h 4 non-GA turns)*1.25. Or, slower if we really need the wealth-building to finish Physics.
Someone else can improve the graphics on the above.
(4) I'm gonna try to look up formulas for city maintenance, civic upkeep and inflation, and wire some spreadsheets.
Spoiler :
Don't quite know how to estimate research rate.
bcool
Deity
bbp thanks for organizing us
I'll take another stab at
I'll take another stab at
LowtherCastle
Deity
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 23,756
Guys, I won't be in a position to play my next turnset. Too many RL things on my plate right now.
Mitchum
Deity
I think a swap between LC and bbp is in order, yes?
Yes. I'll take it.
On a related note, I have a competition project due on Jan 7th. Most likely will take all my free time over ten days leading up to it. Ideally I can play a solid TS asap this week, and then I'll have to disappear a bit.
An initial PPP for discussion shall be posted later today... I think getting to Physics is almost a mini-TS all its own. It'll be easier to plan longer term once we're back in GA, hopefully for good.
Edit: LC, can you play the next?
On a related note, I have a competition project due on Jan 7th. Most likely will take all my free time over ten days leading up to it. Ideally I can play a solid TS asap this week, and then I'll have to disappear a bit.
An initial PPP for discussion shall be posted later today... I think getting to Physics is almost a mini-TS all its own. It'll be easier to plan longer term once we're back in GA, hopefully for good.
Edit: LC, can you play the next?
bcool
Deity
Here is a more detailed plan for the ggp production. Let me know if you guys have any questions. I tried to put in comments to explain. Also put in comments about what specialists to run and estimated when we would have buildings built that allow more specialists.
I made a plan that doesn't depend on the GE from Fusion (which might mean we get too many engineers, but we need to run more specialists in our mongrel cities so this is a calculated risk)
I made educated guesses on the odds of what great person might be born, but didn't actually calculate them. We are going to have to live with 5-7% chance of getting screwed again, but I have noted where we could spike a city for backups if we do. Beijing would be focused on a Great spy for example, but we can spike the number of specialists with GS or whatever starting T227 to give us another shot at a great person of the type we need.
Also we are going to have to be careful not to run too many specialists in cities like Rheims so they don't pass our mongrel cities.
It is getting to the point we might have to check specialist numbers every turn and pause every time we don't get a great person that we expected.
I made a plan that doesn't depend on the GE from Fusion (which might mean we get too many engineers, but we need to run more specialists in our mongrel cities so this is a calculated risk)
I made educated guesses on the odds of what great person might be born, but didn't actually calculate them. We are going to have to live with 5-7% chance of getting screwed again, but I have noted where we could spike a city for backups if we do. Beijing would be focused on a Great spy for example, but we can spike the number of specialists with GS or whatever starting T227 to give us another shot at a great person of the type we need.
Also we are going to have to be careful not to run too many specialists in cities like Rheims so they don't pass our mongrel cities.
It is getting to the point we might have to check specialist numbers every turn and pause every time we don't get a great person that we expected.
So, you're proposing:
3GP GA:
Current GM
Current GE
Physics GS
Start circa T220-1
4GP GA:
Current GM
1800 Mongrel Paris (GP/GE/Spy)
2000 GS Moscow
2200 GA GP Farm
Start circa T232-3
5GP GA:
2400 GS Pigs
2600 Mongrel London (GP/GE/Spy)
2800 GM Fish
3000 Mongrel Bahamas (GP/GE/Spy)
3300 GA GP Farm
Start circa T244-5
Maybe Moscow is better focusing on hammers in the next little while (infrastructure and then either wealth of more execs). Could we pop a GS in Pigs at 2200, and then one in Moscow later? It would presumably give us better GS odds in Moscow and allow Pigs to work on a 3600 faster.
3GP GA:
Current GM
Current GE
Physics GS
Start circa T220-1
4GP GA:
Current GM
1800 Mongrel Paris (GP/GE/Spy)
2000 GS Moscow
2200 GA GP Farm
Start circa T232-3
5GP GA:
2400 GS Pigs
2600 Mongrel London (GP/GE/Spy)
2800 GM Fish
3000 Mongrel Bahamas (GP/GE/Spy)
3300 GA GP Farm
Start circa T244-5
Maybe Moscow is better focusing on hammers in the next little while (infrastructure and then either wealth of more execs). Could we pop a GS in Pigs at 2200, and then one in Moscow later? It would presumably give us better GS odds in Moscow and allow Pigs to work on a 3600 faster.
ECONOMY
General question: we need to rush to Physics. Do we give up some turns getting Factories and Power if needed? Which cities out of Moscow, Siberia, Hammer are more important to set up?
Spoiler :
General question: we need to rush to Physics. Do we give up some turns getting Factories and Power if needed? Which cities out of Moscow, Siberia, Hammer are more important to set up?
bcool
Deity
I actually like Moscow going early because it has decent odds for a GE, Prophet. If we get one there we can save it and use the GS in Pigs.
I gave Moscow 3 turns at only 5 specialist during the gap in the GA to build infrastructure / mining execs.
By the way Pigs can accelerate its GP production a lot I think it has 22 sustainable specialists, I had to slow it down a bit, so it can produce a 3600 great person if necessary no problem.
By the way I think specialists are the key to getting physics on schedule. All ocean tiles (except in Bermuda) should be converted to specialist now (we lost the Colossus and many cities don't need the ocean tiles to grow anyways with Sushi). Especially all cities that likely will not produce a great person can convert them, the ocean tiles, to merchants/scientists based on the buildings they have.
Gandhi War
Very loosely:
T216
Bombard Vijayanagara and Agra (how many hits needed?)
Take Vijayanagara
Take Agra if possible (probably not?)
Galleys from Agra drop back to Newcastle for pick up
T217
Take Agra if not already
Drop off on Madras island
Move towards Delhi
T218
Take Madras
If there are spare units from Madras, load galleys for Varanasi
Move towards Pataliputra
Move towards Delhi
Drop units aboard galleys on hill Delhi-NW
T219
Drop some off at Varanasi, pick up others from Madras for drop off next turn
Arrive at Delhi wheat
T220
Bombard Delhi
Take Varanasi
T221
Take Delhi
Bombard Pataliputra
Move from Varanasi towards Pataliputra
Probably CF
T223
Redeclare
Take Pataliputra
Take Bombay with Delhi stack
Question: any clever way to cut off reinforcements to Delhi from the south?
Edit: maybe the above isn't gonna happen, though. He does have quite a few units milling around, and I don't really know what to expect for our unit loss. I think we ideally wanna take 5 cities asap, including Delhi (so we can work a hill town
). Might need a short break to regroup before that's done.
Very loosely:
T216
Bombard Vijayanagara and Agra (how many hits needed?)
Take Vijayanagara
Take Agra if possible (probably not?)
Galleys from Agra drop back to Newcastle for pick up
T217
Take Agra if not already
Drop off on Madras island
Move towards Delhi
T218
Take Madras
If there are spare units from Madras, load galleys for Varanasi
Move towards Pataliputra
Move towards Delhi
Drop units aboard galleys on hill Delhi-NW
T219
Drop some off at Varanasi, pick up others from Madras for drop off next turn
Arrive at Delhi wheat
T220
Bombard Delhi
Take Varanasi
T221
Take Delhi
Bombard Pataliputra
Move from Varanasi towards Pataliputra
Probably CF
T223
Redeclare
Take Pataliputra
Take Bombay with Delhi stack
Question: any clever way to cut off reinforcements to Delhi from the south?
Edit: maybe the above isn't gonna happen, though. He does have quite a few units milling around, and I don't really know what to expect for our unit loss. I think we ideally wanna take 5 cities asap, including Delhi (so we can work a hill town
). Might need a short break to regroup before that's done.
Yeah, I agree. A bit hard to estimate, though. When you say "on schedule", what do you mean? T220? T221?
Clever. Ok, we'll do that.
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