LowtherCastle
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Excellent turnset, bcool! Things are looking tidy. 
SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Yes, and I was wrong about the negmods from Roosy. We got -1 for not helping him...
Nice work champions
No please tell me, you do not have 8 workers for 5 cities and 2 settlers running to found cities in fallout full map. It just some weird glitch in test game, right?
bcool
Deity
We have 11 workers
Mitchum
Deity
Nice work, bcool. You saw our first military action and you pulled it off quite well.
LC, you're up.
LC, you're up.
LowtherCastle
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Got it!
I'd appreciate all feedback, in particular whether anyone can get the GLib before T127.
I'd appreciate all feedback, in particular whether anyone can get the GLib before T127.
bcool
Deity
I believe this is what you looking for LC?
GS in Pigs before Moscow?
I switched to Organized Religion (real game has confu spread to pigs)
you have to carefully time the whips now (67 from 1 pop for library) and can wait for the whip on the colossus too (1 pop whip for 37 on forge)
You get the HS earlier too, I believe. Only 1 chop for the HS
GS in Pigs before Moscow?
I switched to Organized Religion (real game has confu spread to pigs)
you have to carefully time the whips now (67 from 1 pop for library) and can wait for the whip on the colossus too (1 pop whip for 37 on forge)
You get the HS earlier too, I believe. Only 1 chop for the HS
Nice work. 
Everything looks good.
DG will only give us 10g for peace. Sign a CF now, I guess. We didn't build the second spy, I guess. I'd like to have one in place in France ahead of the maces.
Yeah, we should really work on OB with Roos now.
I'll play around with the wonder builds, too. That's the trickiest thing this TS. Otherwise, we just keep expanding and improving land.
What do we do with the WB N of Moscow?
Everything looks good.DG will only give us 10g for peace. Sign a CF now, I guess. We didn't build the second spy, I guess. I'd like to have one in place in France ahead of the maces.
Yeah, we should really work on OB with Roos now.
I'll play around with the wonder builds, too. That's the trickiest thing this TS. Otherwise, we just keep expanding and improving land.
What do we do with the WB N of Moscow?
bcool
Deity
I think we send the WB N of Moscow down to net the fish near the clam/fish island. We will be able to whip a workboat for that clam near there quickly for the health, and get the fish island up and running that much faster.
This works well if we have 2 turns of anarchy from confu revolt and if we decide organized religion is the way to go as well.
This works well if we have 2 turns of anarchy from confu revolt and if we decide organized religion is the way to go as well.
^ Agree on WB.
Why would we have 2t of anarchy for religion? You meant religion+OR...
OT:
Congrats on
Mitchum! And against a couple of very good players. 
OT:
Congrats on
I see the benefit of OR, but I'm not a big fan of wasting a turn like that. Gandhi's bound to have Monarchy soonish, and it's tradable at monopoly... IDK.
Mitchum
Deity
Congrats onMitchum! And against a couple of very good players.
Thanks. I'm trying to work on my space game for obvious reasons...
I think a turn of revolt for OR is with it. With all of the infrastructure and wonders we'll be building, we will make up the turn of anarchy quickly. Plus it allows us to spread our religion without building monasteries first. Sure, we can wait for Heredity Rule, but that could be further off than you think...
I'll have to think about civics. We might also need a spell of Caste ahead of Education whipping, for some GS pushing. We could also use Theo for the mace build-up, if it were a freebie switch. Ideally we can double up as much as possible. I wish we were playing SPI again. 
Ideally we can double up as much as possible. I wish we were playing SPI again.
I don't see how Pigs can beat Moscow to a GS without Caste...
bcool
Deity
In my test game I built the Great Library by 275 AD and Pigs beats Moscow to the great scientist under slavery. I did it with an early switch to Organized Religion, which lets us whip the library earlier for max overflow in the Great Library, and OR also helps build the HS faster allowing the workers near pigs chop the forests and improve the tiles faster.
The real game has confu in Pigs while the test game does not.
The real game has confu in Pigs while the test game does not.
Hmmm... The test save you posted yesterday has HS in 175 AD and GLib in 250 AD. That gives me T140 in Moscow, with Pigs still at 174gpp if running two sci asap. Not sure how you're getting your result.
bcool
Deity
Buffy shows where the next great people will be born in the test game I posted. It is Pigs in 14 turns. 8 gpp on 250 AD (the turn hammers show completion of the GL) then 2 
from great library and 12 from 2 free scientists and 2 scientists in the library for 14 per turn.
Is the Buffy calculation wrong?
from great library and 12 from 2 free scientists and 2 scientists in the library for 14 per turn. Is the Buffy calculation wrong?
LowtherCastle
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Okay. bcool's test save has HS+Colossus on T123, Glib on T126, using OrgRel. I was able to get HS+Colossus on T122 without OrgReli and I don't want to push our luck. Gandhi's had Theology for a while and once we give Roosy MC, he could theoretically complete forge+Colossus in 5t or even 4t. So I tried about a 1000 times to get HS+Colossus on T122, using OrgRel. And got it finally.
The save below has HS+Colossus on T122 and GLib on T125, using OrgRel. That puts GS in Pigs at 14t, next GP in Moscow at 15t. Without OrgRel I can get T122/T126, but both GPs are then at 15t, Moscow having priority of course. We could 3pop a forge in Pigs some turns later and run an engineer for 4t, thus getting the GP in Fish with a high GS, low GE probability.
The turn of revolt loses us:
18c
56h
28f
The hammers we obviously get back, the commerce probalby also with martket in Moscow sooner and other buildings sooner. The food is hard to measure.
The real question is whether OrgRel continues to pay for the +2cpt and rising civic cost. That may depend on how much free religion spread we get.
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bcool, I think you're right about the GS in Pigs.
The save below has HS+Colossus on T122 and GLib on T125, using OrgRel. That puts GS in Pigs at 14t, next GP in Moscow at 15t. Without OrgRel I can get T122/T126, but both GPs are then at 15t, Moscow having priority of course. We could 3pop a forge in Pigs some turns later and run an engineer for 4t, thus getting the GP in Fish with a high GS, low GE probability.
The turn of revolt loses us:
18c
56h
28f
The hammers we obviously get back, the commerce probalby also with martket in Moscow sooner and other buildings sooner. The food is hard to measure.
The real question is whether OrgRel continues to pay for the +2cpt and rising civic cost. That may depend on how much free religion spread we get.
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bcool, I think you're right about the GS in Pigs.
My bad. Forgot that TGL gives an extra 2gpp...
If we start an eng in Moscow the turn Pigs pops a GS (T139-140), we could get the 300gpp GP at 53% GP, 35% GE. That may be as high as we're likely to get this game. ???
The fourth GP could be 45% GE, but would probably cause a delay to other GS's.
If we start an eng in Moscow the turn Pigs pops a GS (T139-140), we could get the 300gpp GP at 53% GP, 35% GE. That may be as high as we're likely to get this game. ???
The fourth GP could be 45% GE, but would probably cause a delay to other GS's.
I think OR now only really benefits base buildings in Pigs. Moscow in general and wonder builds everywhere already have significant multipliers. Moscow builds buildings for only some 10-ish turns after, which is basically the break-even point, before spamming units. Not like we're gonna build any missionaries soon either. I guess I'm ok with it if you guys really want it, but I'm sure I wouldn't do it right now if I was playing solo. Edit: because I think we're currently hurting for commerce and food more than for hammers in our top cities.
bcool
Deity
Looks very nice.
Costs of switch to OR
I think 1 food = 2
is a decent estimate of the value of food (can whip pop for 30 hammers and with a granary the pop regrows with about 15 food)
so we lose 112 hammers with OR switch.18c 91 
and maybe 25 turns*2.5 gold extra civic cost
(until we switch to Pacifism)
I'm not sure where LC got that we lose 18 commerce. I have us getting 91 in the real game per turn.
with 4 chops (120*.25=30), 4? whips to buildings (120*.25=30) and 25 turns of +25% building production (bonus equals roughly 10 hammers a turn) +the benefits of earlier production of those buildings and the earlier production of all future builds...
OR switch gives us 310 hammers and the benefits of earlier production of wonders, and future builds like the market in Moscow)
Costs: ~112 18 commerce 91 63 gold
Benefits: ~310 + benefits of earlier production of wonders and other buildings (benefits include guaranteeing GS is born first, Maybe 20 gold from Market)
Costs of switch to OR
I think 1 food = 2
is a decent estimate of the value of food (can whip pop for 30 hammers and with a granary the pop regrows with about 15 food)so we lose 112 hammers with OR switch.
and maybe 25 turns*2.5 gold extra civic cost (until we switch to Pacifism)
I'm not sure where LC got that we lose 18 commerce. I have us getting 91
in the real game per turn. with 4 chops (120*.25=30), 4? whips to buildings (120*.25=30) and 25 turns of +25% building production (bonus equals roughly 10 hammers a turn) +the benefits of earlier production of those buildings and the earlier production of all future builds...
OR switch gives us 310 hammers and the benefits of earlier production of wonders, and future builds like the market in Moscow)
Costs: ~112
63 gold Benefits: ~310
+ benefits of earlier production of wonders and other buildings (benefits include guaranteeing GS is born first, Maybe 20 gold from Market)Similar threads
