SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

Good luck, mdy. :goodjob:

I think we should get on with it, we don't really have a week's time per turnset, so we should get a move-on. :)
On this topic (I've been meaning to):

Before this game started, shyuhe asked me to take over captain duties. I kinda declined, but started on it anyway out of necessity. He's an awesome captain, as he is always very measured in his posts and does an excellent job of synthesizing all ideas from others. By comparison, I'm quite opinionated and have a tendency to get very agitated at times. :blush: It seems that we can now definitely consider him retired, so it's either that I'm stuck with the job for the remainder of the game, or we share the responsibility. Edit: In other words, if anyone else ;) wanted to be the one with the responsibility to crack the necessary :whipped:'s, I would be only too happy... In any case, I think we should develop a bit of a long view...

I'm wondering if anyone has a reasonable, if rough estimate of how long this game will last. Dynamic's best Emperor Normal game was 1710 AD with Isabella on Rainforest, with State Prop. We're behind his tech pace, ofc, but should outpace him in mid-game expansion, and get a good corporation setup. Should something like 1750-1800 AD be a guideline? Too optimistic or too pessimistic or just right? :scan:

That would be T260-270, and we're currently at T135 leaving 125-135t. I think this is important for several reasons:

1) We should keep the game going at an appropriate pace, as LC suggested. There are 72 days remaining to the new Jan 27 deadline, as of today. Let's assume that a week around Xmas and New Year's is a wash, so we have 9 weeks. That's exactly 15t per week, assuming my estimate is correct, but possibly more. I think we should keep tabs on this and make sure that we don't have some nightmare of a set in the last week.

2) I said I'd start a gpp spreadsheet, but haven't done much on it yet. :mischief: This is partly because the builds this TS, decision on Caste, NE, etc affect it quite a bit, even in the short term. Still, I should get on it and develop some options.

3) We should have at least 4 ?, maybe 5 ? golden ages to finish the game (including Taj). That's 48-60t with MoM, and would, therefore, ideally start as early as T192-204 (1320-1440 AD). This would require a MoM capture/build and maybe Nationalism steal. Combined with item (2) above, we'd need to generate a mix of GP's for use on GA by given dates.

My estimate is very rough, as I'm not experienced in these kinds of games. Perhaps others could comment and we can work towards developing these items well in advance?

Anything else that may require longer term planning? Espionage spending in the mid term seems like another.
 
I think you being the Captain will be beneficial for your health. ;) I think having a captain is important and I'd be happy if you'd take as active a role in that as possible. We know the difference when you're wearing your captain's hat and when you're being you the player, so don't worry about that.

I also have no true idea, but your timing seems reasonable. Perhaps the hardest part will be collecting the eps for Communism, but in the final analysis, the Liberalism slingshot doesn't depend on that anyway, if that's for Biology, so a turn or two either way doesn't matter too much.

The GPs will come, I'm sure. It's so easy to get the first three GAs and during them we can easily get the fourth.

The other difficulty may be managing our conquest efficiently.

Then we'll also need to make some research path decisions, perhaps related to stealing techs.
 
I think you being the Captain will be beneficial for your health. ;)
I'm sure it would. After I'm done typing this, I'll go have a :smoke: to that. :D

Perhaps the hardest part will be collecting the eps for Communism, but in the final analysis, the Liberalism slingshot doesn't depend on that anyway, if that's for Biology, so a turn or two either way doesn't matter too much.
Turn or two - no, 10 turns - yes. We'll just have to see once we're running spies and preparing for the China war, hard to estimate just yet.
 
I've played 5 turns. Unfortunately Churchill has built the HG sooner than we thought he would so we need an alternative plan. We could go for the Parthenon or the MOM.

We have stolen 5 more workers from De Gaulle. Churchill has also just declared war on De Gaulle.

A slight MM error has been made in fish which will delay our attack by 1T, so we will need to whip a catapult next turn if our attack is to stay on schedule.

Confunicism has auto spread to Siberia however, so we are ahead of schedule there.

China demanded something from us, we declined.

Other than that everything went according to plan.
 
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Maceman 1 (Pigs) (8.00) vs De Gaulle's Archer (5.85)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Combat Odds: 72.2%
Turn 135, 500 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Maceman 1 (Pigs) is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Maceman 1 (Pigs) is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Maceman 1 (Pigs) is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Maceman 1 (Pigs) has defeated De Gaulle's Archer!
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Swordsman 1 (Moscow) (6.00) vs De Gaulle's Archer (5.55)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Combat Odds: 61.3%
Turn 135, 500 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: (City Attack: -10%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Swordsman 1 (Moscow) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Swordsman 1 (Moscow) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Swordsman 1 (Moscow) is hit for 19 (43/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Swordsman 1 (Moscow) is hit for 19 (24/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Swordsman 1 (Moscow) has defeated De Gaulle's Archer!
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Swordsman 2 (Moscow) (6.00) vs De Gaulle's Archer (5.55)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Combat Odds: 61.3%
Turn 135, 500 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: (City Attack: -10%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Swordsman 2 (Moscow) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Swordsman 2 (Moscow) is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Swordsman 2 (Moscow) has defeated De Gaulle's Archer!
Turn 135, 500 AD: Subutai (Great General) has been born in Moscow (Catherine)!
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Chariot 1 (Moscow) (4.00) vs De Gaulle's Archer (5.40)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Combat Odds: 16.6%
Turn 135, 500 AD: (Plot Defense: +20%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: (Fortify: +10%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: (City Defense: +50%)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Chariot 1 (Moscow) is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Chariot 1 (Moscow) is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 17 (15/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 17 (0/100HP)
Turn 135, 500 AD: Catherine's Chariot 1 (Moscow) has defeated De Gaulle's Archer!
Turn 135, 500 AD: You have captured Rheims!!!
Turn 135, 500 AD: You have trained a Settler in Siberia. Work has now begun on a Courthouse.
Turn 135, 500 AD: Confucianism has spread in Siberia.

Turn 136, 520 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Vassalage!
Turn 136, 520 AD: Mao Zedong adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 137, 540 AD: You have made peace with De Gaulle!
Turn 137, 540 AD: You have discovered Construction!
Turn 137, 540 AD: Catherine has completed The Hagia Sophia!
Turn 137, 540 AD: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Bahamas. Work has now begun on a Forge.
Turn 137, 540 AD: The borders of Bermuda have expanded!
Turn 137, 540 AD: Confucianism has spread in Rheims.
Turn 137, 540 AD: Jing Ke (Great Spy) has been born in London (Churchill)!

Turn 138, 560 AD: A Russian Spy 3 (Moscow) has been stumbled upon while operating near the French city of Paris!
Turn 138, 560 AD: Siberia has grown to size 6.
Turn 138, 560 AD: Pigs can hurry Courthouse for 3? with 13? overflow and +1? for 33 turns.
Turn 138, 560 AD: GP Farm can hurry Forge for 3? with 6? overflow and +1? for 10 turns.
Turn 138, 560 AD: Cuba has grown to size 2.
Turn 138, 560 AD: Bermuda has grown to size 2.
Turn 138, 560 AD: Rheims has been pacified.
Turn 138, 560 AD: Gandhi has 60 gold available for trade.
Turn 138, 560 AD: De Gaulle won't trade Archery
Turn 138, 560 AD: Roosevelt will trade Feudalism
Turn 138, 560 AD: Deal Canceled: Deer to De Gaulle for Gold Per Turn (1)
Turn 138, 560 AD: You have declared war on De Gaulle!
Turn 138, 560 AD: De Gaulle refuses to talk.
Turn 138, 560 AD: Your Axeman 2 (Moscow) has destroyed a Worker!
Turn 138, 560 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 138, 560 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 138, 560 AD: Pigs will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 138, 560 AD: GP Farm will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 138, 560 AD: Bahamas will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 138, 560 AD: Churchill has completed The Hanging Gardens!
Turn 138, 560 AD: Yunus Emre (Great Artist) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!

Turn 139, 580 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Rheims!
Turn 139, 580 AD: Pigs has grown to size 7.
Turn 139, 580 AD: GP Farm has grown to size 7.
Turn 139, 580 AD: Bahamas has grown to size 3.
Turn 139, 580 AD: Catherine's Axeman 1 (Moscow) (5.50) vs De Gaulle's Archer (3.00)
Turn 139, 580 AD: Combat Odds: 98.3%
Turn 139, 580 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 139, 580 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 26 (74/100HP)
Turn 139, 580 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 26 (48/100HP)
Turn 139, 580 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 26 (22/100HP)
Turn 139, 580 AD: Catherine's Axeman 1 (Moscow) is hit for 14 (86/100HP)
Turn 139, 580 AD: De Gaulle's Archer is hit for 26 (0/100HP)
Turn 139, 580 AD: Catherine's Axeman 1 (Moscow) has defeated De Gaulle's Archer!
Turn 139, 580 AD: Your Axeman 1 (Moscow) has destroyed a Archer!
Turn 139, 580 AD: You have made peace with De Gaulle!
Turn 139, 580 AD: De Gaulle is willing to negotiate.
Turn 139, 580 AD: Siberia will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 139, 580 AD: Bahamas will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 139, 580 AD: Ptolemy (Great Scientist) has been born in Pigs (Catherine)!
Turn 139, 580 AD: Churchill has declared war on De Gaulle!
Turn 139, 580 AD: Churchill has founded Warwick in a distant land.

Turn 140, 600 AD: Fish can hurry Maceman for 1? with 18? overflow and +1? for 18 turns.
Turn 140, 600 AD: Bahamas has grown to size 4.
Turn 140, 600 AD: Bermuda can hurry Work Boat for 1? with 2? overflow and +1? for 10 turns.
Turn 140, 600 AD: De Gaulle has 60 gold available for trade.
Turn 140, 600 AD: Gandhi has 60 gold available for trade.
Turn 140, 600 AD: Mao Zedong has 70 gold available for trade.
Turn 140, 600 AD: Roosevelt will trade Horseback Riding
Turn 140, 600 AD: Deal Canceled: Deer to De Gaulle for Gold Per Turn (1)
Turn 140, 600 AD: You have declared war on De Gaulle!
Turn 140, 600 AD: De Gaulle refuses to talk.
Turn 140, 600 AD: Your Axeman 2 (Moscow) has destroyed a Worker!
Turn 140, 600 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 140, 600 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 140, 600 AD: You have captured a Worker
Turn 140, 600 AD: Bananas has been founded.
 
HG: Oh, well. That's sucky, but it was a long shot.

I'm more inclined to build MoM than the rest of the team seems to be. Gandhi could build it, and we'd be a long way out from capturing it. We've kinda already decided on that, though. Could just invest in more units, ofc.

:thumbsup: on keeping up the French harassment.
 
Well done on spreading Confuciansim to Siberia and Rheims! :goodjob:

Questions
1. What did dG do with his units in Marseilles?
2. Any particular reason why our Confu miss is squatting in the desert rather than going north?

Suggestions
1. Gpt trades with Gandhi and Roosy immediately and every turn possible
2. Tech trades:
* Literature to Mao for 70g
* Currency to Roosy for HBR + maps + 30g
* HBR to dG for 60g (after cease fire) (might as well risk the negmods with Gandhi--they'll go away eventually)
* HBR for lots of cold cash...
3. Send the sword 2 W to peek into Tours, see if Chruchill is geating down on him, maybe send our units to join the fun
4. URGENT: Focus on getting the 6/5XP axeman up to 10XP!!! Forget about promoting him to medic, promote for battle and win 2 more battles against archers on the plains. DoW for this explicit purpose, if possible (more important than waiting for workers to steal). Immediately build the road at dG-Rice-2S and station the axe there where he can attack dG's rice (with mace escort) or ivory or elsewhere.
5. Bananas work the ivory till the banana plantation is done, right?
6. Not sure we need the spy in Siberia right now. PUts it a million miles from any action and just adds more unit costs. Could put those hammers into a settler or into the Parthenon for failed gold.
6. We need more workers up north! Fish is full of fallout! Moscow needs farms! Road to Rish/Corn!
7. Research at 0% (ha ha, as if you'll have any choice) after Education.

Thoughts
Three possibilities in Moscow:
1. Build fail-gold (e.g., Parthenon)
2. BUild MoM
3. Pre-build for Oxford in 1-2 turns. This is similar to poprushing overflow escept you have to concatenate a sequnce of builds, like this, for example:
pre-build Confu Monastery to 54/60h
pre-build aqueduct to 54+42=96/100h
pre-build ch to 11x/120h
pre-build uni to 19x/200h
pre-build spy to 30/40h
Finish w/overflow: spy -> monastery -> aqueduct -> ch -> uni -> Oxford

I don't think you have time for all that, but that's the idea. Just remember the overflow is capped by the build cost of each build, including bonuses, so the sequence is paramount.

Note on MoM and Parthenon: Neither are in any danger right now. These are the cities with the most production currently.
Washington 90h
Chicago 70h
Bombay 90h
Guangzhou 90h

I don't see any hurry for us to build those wonders in Moscow right now, so I'd go for the Oxford pre-build sequence, and switch over to HE if we get a 10XP unit promoted up. Meanwhile, monitor the sabotage production of the cities I mentioned above.

Note: Please stop before whipping unis, so we can analyze our economy to make sure we can afford the population crash.
.
 
6. We need more workers up north! Fish is full of fallout! Moscow needs farms! Road to Rish/Corn!
Agree.

I think we should be running an Eng in Moscow now.

Why don't we keep the galleys and units 1 tile out of Galley City to save some unit supply?

Edit: off the top of my head, don't know that we have time for that pre-build sequence. Sure, whatever's possible.

Edit2: I'm not crazy about this trading with the soon-to-be-deceased. Esp. loaded tech trades.

Edit3: just a note - now that GS popped, we could actually work the mines in Pigs, if it helps the builds.
 
4. URGENT: Focus on getting the 6/5XP axeman up to 10XP!!! Forget about promoting him to medic, promote for battle and win 2 more battles against archers on the plains. DoW for this explicit purpose, if possible (more important than waiting for workers to steal). Immediately build the road at dG-Rice-2S and station the axe there where he can attack dG's rice (with mace escort) or ivory or elsewhere.

An expensive (125 gold) and probably not worth it idea would be to promote the 6 xp axe to a macemen give it City Raider 1 or Cover and assault a nearby French city.

(but building wealth for 3 turns in Moscow would give us enough gold if we didn't trade for it. That might be recovered by the hammer savings of getting the Heroic Epic earlier? Again probably not worth since we will have time to get the xp from the assault from Paris with the 5 xp Macemen perhaps before Moscow is ready to build units with the Heroic Epic)

Just an idea.
 
Also now that we don't have to wait for a hanging gardens build in Moscow perhaps we want to try and get a confu missionary to Bahamas since we probably could get Oxford a bit earlier now if Bahamas gets a little boost. It might be too late but something to at least consider.
 
6. Not sure we need the spy in Siberia right now. PUts it a million miles from any action and just adds more unit costs. Could put those hammers into a settler or into the Parthenon for failed gold.
Our spy in Paris got caught and we could use it either to steal philosophy or for eyes on DeG.
We need a significant lead time on the philosophy steal for the best discount.

edit: I'm all for LC's other suggestions. I have no trouble with getting 60 gold from DeG with horseback riding.
 
Our spy in Paris got caught and we could use it either to steal philosophy or for eyes on DeG.
We need a significant lead time on the philosophy steal for the best discount.

I suggest holding off on the Philosophy steal until closer to the time that we need it. That way we can start diverting some of our epp to Mao and still see what Gandhi is researching.

Man, for a guy on the ropes, De Gaulle sure can crank out a lot of workers... :D
 
1. Gpt trades with Gandhi and Roosy immediately and every turn possible
2. Tech trades:
* Literature to Mao for 70g
* Currency to Roosy for HBR + maps + 30g
* HBR to dG for 60g (after cease fire) (might as well risk the negmods with Gandhi--they'll go away eventually)
* HBR for lots of cold cash...
3. Send the sword 2 W to peek into Tours, see if Chruchill is geating down on him, maybe send our units to join the fun
4. URGENT: Focus on getting the 6/5XP axeman up to 10XP!!! Forget about promoting him to medic, promote for battle and win 2 more battles against archers on the plains. DoW for this explicit purpose, if possible (more important than waiting for workers to steal). Immediately build the road at dG-Rice-2S and station the axe there where he can attack dG's rice (with mace escort) or ivory or elsewhere.
5. Bananas work the ivory till the banana plantation is done, right?
6. Not sure we need the spy in Siberia right now. PUts it a million miles from any action and just adds more unit costs. Could put those hammers into a settler or into the Parthenon for failed gold.
6. We need more workers up north! Fish is full of fallout! Moscow needs farms! Road to Rish/Corn!
7. Research at 0% (ha ha, as if you'll have any choice) after Education.

I agree with all these except 6. This city will need to grow so we can whip the settler and given current AI build rates we won't get failure gold for some time. If we slow build the spy it won't be finished until after the uni is whipped so we don't have to worry about maintenance costs.

I could send the missionary north but there didn't seem to be much point in it.

I'm still not keen on using a gallley to spread confunicism to Bahamas, I am leaning to building the MOM in the capital, to guarantee that we will have it when we need it
 
I agree with all these except 6. This city will need to grow so we can whip the settler and given current AI build rates we won't get failure gold for some time. If we slow build the spy it won't be finished until after the uni is whipped so we don't have to worry about maintenance costs.

I could send the missionary north but there didn't seem to be much point in it.

I'm still not keen on using a gallley to spread confunicism to Bahamas, I am leaning to building the MOM in the capital, to guarantee that we will have it when we need it
Agree with all this. MoM is hard to decide on, 'cause it doesn't pay for such a long time. I prefer making sure, though.

I also thought we'd have more workers in Bananas, btw. What do we need all the farms for in GP, with all the whipping down, and with pigs and river grass soon to be ours?

Edit: irrigate that corn in Rheims asap, btw.
 
Guys, we need to minimize our maintenance cost, coin by coin, everywhere we can. Building a spy, when needed, in Fish, minimizes travel distance, thus unit cost. We're not going to even have enough EPs for Philosophy for ~20t.

Plus, every hammer in every city we put into Parthenon, Schwedagon, Chichen (after stone) will pay off big-time later on. We want to plan for the future.
 
3pop university in Siberia

With Confucianism, the 3pop is now a no-brainer.

T140 build wealth, work spy, grow to pop6
T141 build settler (45/100h), work spy+fur
T142 2poprush settler (150/100h) then put into the build queue behind MoM, IMMEDIATELY switch build to MoM (or other failed-gold wonder). Do NOT complete the settler next turn!!!
T143 work grass for growth to pop6
T144 work spy+fur
T145 build settler with overflow into uni, that is, move settler to the top of the build queue for completion next turn
------------------ (assuming Education complete)
T146 build uni, work spy+2fur
T147 uni now has 135+h and can be 3popped any time.

Note: After scrubbing that grass fallout, that worker should immediately start roading to Fish/Corn if we're settling that next. Another worker should join him asap. The first worker should only road for 1t on plains tiles without fallout, so the second worker has something to do when catching up.
.
 
If we don't build some farms in Fish, we WILL be sorry. It needs fast-growth capacity, especially since we're savagely poprushing it to death right now.
 
Sure MoM in the capital since if we can't get it when we need it is a huge blow.

In my test games I had enough :espionage: to steal philosophy by 800 AD, we may not want to steal it by then but it is possible to get it. If we run spys in all the cities when we can. I can see how failure gold is more important right now.

and yes to the engineer in the capital

and yes aggressively move workers north.

I would whip a galley in Pigs (using max overflow to NE) for the confu missionary to bahamas. Maybe build the confu missionary in Moscow if it has the time to build MoM after.

Do we want to open borders with Churchill? We might be able to get that confu missionary back...

Did Gandhi research music (since a Great Artist was just born)?
 
Guys, we need to minimize our maintenance cost, coin by coin, everywhere we can. Building a spy, when needed, in Fish, minimizes travel distance, thus unit cost. We're not going to even have enough EPs for Philosophy for ~20t.
You're talking about saving 1-2g total, at the cost of loading the Fish queue further. I mean sure, but it's really a wash.

Comparatively, the stack in Galley City is currently costing us -3gpt (will have amounted to, what, 12-15g total by the time we launch the attack), and we wouldn't even need to change anything to save that money.

We're out of spies now, correct? We should be getting one going to China asap. I'd like to know what Mao has well ahead of time.
 
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