SGOTM 12 - One Short Straw

[LowtherCastle]

On our Communism beeline, our very highest priorities, imo, are:
1. Moscow producing HE units asap;
2. Maximizing our empire population;
3. Next GP in Pigs Fish, if possible.

That means we want to put as much of Moscow's current production into uni+Oxford+HE as possible. We do this by carrying hammers over from less important pre-builds now, while we can't build uni+Oxford+HE.

Fast uni-Oxford-HE in Moscow
No need to build the NE before Oxford, but we could if we get a 10XP unit sooner. This schedule depends on when we get Education. If Educ T144 (+~280g):

T141 mace (70/70h), start aque (2t@48hpt)
T143 stop aque (96/100h), start Confu Monastery (1t@54hpt)
T144 stop ConfMonast (54/60h), start uni (2t@54hpt, 1t@78hpt)
T147 stop uni (176/200h), restart ConfMonastery
T148 restart aque
T149 restart uni
T150 start Oxford

If we're going to get Educ on T145 or later, then this has to be adjusted accordingly.

Next GP in Pigs (Edited)
We can pop the next GP on T155 in Pigs, but it requires delaying the uni poprush to T151. This means Oxford is finished T153 instead of T152, but presumably, this would allow us to poprush our other cities more humanely and build more infrastructure, except for Pigs, which only gets the NE. My goal in this is to have 3 more GSes for our Communism beeline. In my experience, research toward the end of that beeline drags to a halt and the GSes are saviors. I will post the MM for this if there's an interest indoing so.

Spoiler :

This MM does NOT get the GP in Pigs on T155.

This MM is designed to grow our pop back in a rapid, timely fashion, while maximizing GPPs.

T140 build Confu Miss @1hpt
T141 2pop Confu Miss, work ivory + 1sci
T142 build NE, work ivory + 2sci
T143 build spy @1hpt
T144 2pop spy, work 1sci
T145 NE, work ivory + 2sci
T146 build uni, work 2sci
at pop9 4pop uni, overflow into NE, MM to pop GP on T155

Bahamas
I think it works slightly better if we work the forest instead of the first costal tile. Poprush forge at pop7.
.

 

[Mitchum]

Sure MoM in the capital since if we can't get it when we need it is a huge blow.

It seems that everyone is on board the MoM-in-Moscow train. I want to caution that not getting a GE for Mining Inc. is a bigger blow than not having MoM for our first Taj-induced Golden Age (I'm sure we'll have it no matter what by the time we start using our great people to spawn golden ages).

Can we afford more GPP polution in Moscow now that we finally have a decent shot at getting that much needed GE? Wouldn't a few CRII maces come in more handy than a wonder that we won't be needing for some 50 turns?

 

[LowtherCastle]

You're talking about saving 1-2g total, at the cost of loading the Fish queue further. I mean sure, but it's really a wash.

Comparatively, the stack in Galley City is currently costing us -3gpt (will have amounted to, what, 12-15g total by the time we launch the attack), and we wouldn't even need to change anything to save that money.

We're out of spies now, correct? We should be getting one going to China asap. I'd like to know what Mao has well ahead of time.

1. We have a spy in GP Farm, who is available to look at Paris from the pigs tile when mdy is ready to DoW and invade Paris.
2. My plan for Siberia, is better than the current plan, because it saves a pop, gets the settler out sooner and doesn't waste my trifling 1-2g. Building a spy in the Siberian Gulag doesn't fit it.
3. My plan for Pigs builds a spy which can help out with dG and go to MaoLand.

4. I agree that the galleys in Galley City should wait in the fort until the 2nd catapult is done. That will save us 6g over the next 2t. It all adds up, in my books. Furthermore, the maces planning to board the following turn shold wait on the hill in our culture.

 

[babybluepants]

^ By the same logic, we shouldn't build OU+HE there. The relative decrease in odds from MoM is about 8-9% beyond the next GP. It's actually less, as we may well need to run some sci just to get ahead of other gpp cities.

Edit: I'm ok with not building the MoM, as I thought that was the consensus from some time ago. Typically, though, I'd consider it the biggest wonder in this game, or at least on par with CS sling and 'Mids. Our pace of conquest may be quite slow actually. Find it difficult to estimate... Edit again: I'd be much more comfortable with this if I knew where the thing was gonna be built.

btw, I had a thought yesterday: if we didn't pop a GE this time around, putting HE elsewhere and saving a spot for IW could give us the best overall odds. I wouldn't actually do that, ofc, just mentioning as another random option to consider.

Edit2: x-post with LC

1. We have a spy in GP Farm, who is available to look at Paris from the pigs tile when mdy is ready to DoW and invade Paris.
2. My plan for Siberia, is better than the current plan, because it saves a pop, gets the settler out sooner and doesn't waste my trifling 1-2g. Building a spy in the Siberian Gulag doesn't fit it.
3. My plan for Pigs builds a spy which can help out with dG and go to MaoLand.

4. I agree that the galleys in Galley City should wait in the fort until the 2nd catapult is done. That will save us 6g over the next 2t. It all adds up, in my books. Furthermore, the maces planning to board the following turn shold wait on the hill in our culture.

Ok.

 

[Mitchum]

Are we going to cancel our free resouce trades to Roosevelt now that we have +1 for resource trades with him? We can re-trade him one of them for his 2 gold, yes?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I am leaning to building the MOM in the capital, to guarantee that we will have it when we need it

Sure MoM in the capital since if we can't get it when we need it is a huge blow.

It seems that everyone is on board the MoM-in-Moscow train.

I'm firmly against building the MoM right now.

• There's absolutely no urgency.
• No AI has marble.
• We can see exactly how many hammers they have put into any build before they come close to completing 382h build.
• GPP gene pool dilution.
• Faster GP spawned in Moscow.
• Diverts Moscow hammer production from much more vital concerns.

If I'm not mistaken, bbp and I were the ones originally stressing the importance of building the MoM. We will. All in due time.

By the way, doesn anyone know if we can generate failed gold from wonders we build? That is, partially build it in different cities for failed gold? That would be one way to guarantee faster failed gold. We could even do that with HE, NE, Oxford, if it's possible with National Wonders.

 

[babybluepants]

Yes, it's possible. You have to take it off-queue in the fail-gold city to be able to build it in Moscow.

• There's absolutely no urgency.
• No AI has marble.
• We can see exactly how many hammers they have put into any build before they come close to completing 382h build.

If I'm not mistaken, bbp and I were the ones originally stressing the importance of building the MoM. We will. All in due time

Are you suggesting that we'll switch to it if an AI with Calendar approaches that production level, or not building it at all? I don't see the point of delaying, if all we're doing is shifting the long build queue around. Or, we only care about potential faraway builds, that would take time to capture? That might be good.

 

[bcool]

Ok LC's argument against MoM makes sense.

Failure gold on our wonders builds is a neat idea. I've done that accidentally but it probably makes sense in a few cities soon.

@LC
Next GP in Fish? Is that possible with the planned whip of a catapult as well? I assume this means no engineer in Moscow...
Did you work out the details?
Is this with a spy, 2 scientists and an engineer? (sorry don't remember what we have there or could conceivably build.)

 

[babybluepants]

I generally like NW failure-gold better, as we can control when we cash it out to some extent. We can't realistically get it on HE or OU, because of the tight build schedule. NE is probably better than Parthenon, though, if the timing of builds/whips in Siberia and Pigs works out.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Are you suggesting that we'll switch to it if an AI with Calendar approaches that production level, or not building it at all? I don't see the point of delaying, if all we're doing is shifting the long build queue around. Or, we only care about potential faraway builds, that would take time to capture? That might be good.

To me there are two good reasons to delay: 1) Prevent a GP from popping in Moscow till we decide so, and 2) Produce as many units for Mao as fast as possible. Your third reason: 3) Possibly capturing it in some given city, is also an interesting reason. Problem is, I assume it's going to get built in Washington, although I suppose we could try farming London for lots of wonders we want to capture eventually.

@LC
Next GP in Fish?

Did I say in Fish in one of my posts? If so, I meant in Pigs. Edit: Okay, I found where I mistakenly wrote FIsh, sorry, corrected.
.

 

[babybluepants]

1) Prevent a GP from popping in Moscow till we decide so

I was under the impression we are popping the next one from Moscow. You totally confused me with the "Fish", as well. I guess you want the next from Pigs? Pure GS? I kinda prefer pushing infra + NE in Pigs for now without using citizens for specs, popping one out of Moscow with fingers crossed, and then pushing the next GS in time for Chem. Given our research situation, I have to think we have time for that.

The advantages of popping Moscow next:
1) I intuitively think it gives us better odds at GE across two pops, though I haven't checked this explicitly.
2) If we do get a GE, we get to not run any Eng instead of Sci for the remainder.

 

[bcool]

Problem is, I assume it's going to get built in Washington, although I suppose we could try farming London for lots of wonders we want to capture eventually.

Would we gift Marble to the AI we hope would build it for us?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I was under the impression we are popping the next one from Moscow. You totally confused me with the "Fish", as well. I guess you want the next from Pigs? Pure GS? I kinda prefer pushing infra + NE in Pigs for now without using citizens for specs, popping one out of Moscow with fingers crossed, and then pushing the next GS in time for Chem. Given our research situation, I have to think we have time for that.

The advantages of popping Moscow next:
1) I intuitively think it gives us better odds at GE across two pops, though I haven't checked this explicitly.
2) If we do get a GE, we get to not run any Eng instead of Sci for the remainder.

Sorry about the Fish mistake.

I never liked the idea of popping the next GP in Moscow, but kept out of the discussion till now, because I didn't want to complicate our thread further. Popping in Pigs was no problem till we grabbed the Pyramids out of the blue. Now it requires intense MM, but no citizen specialists (they don't give gpps anyway). I have revisited my Pigs MM, because the original one didn't work. It CAN work if we build ConfuMiss-spy-spy-NE-uni(T152).

No, it can't be pure GS, because there will be 7t of NE-GA.

The longer we delay Moscow, the greater the odds of a GE. We need multiple GEs for GAs anyway. In fact, we only need 2 or 3 GSes now. Later, we need a general mix.

 

[bcool]

mdy when do you think you can play again? Can you put together another PPP based on the recent discussion?

 

[LowtherCastle]

I can't believe this failed gold stuff. I can't believe you guys haven't been screaming about it, since you knew all about it. I've hardly ever used it. Last SG we were talking about building wealth and GMs to pay for our research...pfffft. Failed gold is far better.

Build research with a forge: 100h*1.25b/h=125b
Build wealth with a forge: 100h*1.25g/h=125g*2b/g=250b
Build +100%marble-wonder+25%OrgRel+forge: 100h*2.5g/h=250g*2b/g=500b

This changes the whole complexion of everything about this SG. This changes the whole complexion of mdy's turnset.

Why delay MoM, for example? To pre-build it in every hammer city we've got, after they've finished their infra, that's why. If we have 15,000b to Communism (off the top of my head) and let's say 310b/t @100% @200g/t, then that's 15,000/1.2=12,500/310=40t*200g/t=8000g. 8000g/2.5g/base-h= 3167base-h/40t=80/t. Our empire needs to put 80base-hpt into pre-building wonders to pay for 15000b of research.

Okay, over-simplification, but it gets the idea out there.

 

[babybluepants]

I can't believe this failed gold stuff. I can't believe you guys haven't been screaming about it, since you knew all about it. I've hardly ever used it.

Because I find this game hard to wrap my mind around? We're still developing infra and have two wars already lined up. There's also the issue of AIs not actually building wonders. A couple of times, I was thinking of suggesting some hammers into stupid stone wonders (CI, AW, etc), which would be standard practice, but then figured they might not be built until Communism for all I know.

The issue with pre-building NW's is that you often want to actually build them instantly - which is the case with OU+HE here. NE here is actually an example of a great cash steal, due to the long delays in the whipping cycle, but I didn't think of it.

What are you proposing exactly? I mean, which cities dedicated to wealth. I, for one, don't see much of a rush to settle further island cities. That can happen closer to corps. Bahamas and Bermuda could just build wealth after basics.

Edit: S. Paya's good right now. Parthenon is easily the best, though. And MoM...

Edit2: We have another 15,350b to Communism (Educ-Eng-GP-Chem-PP-SM). A GS bulb at the PP-Chem stage should be approximately 1750b? So, we could chop the beaker requirement to 11,850, or even 10,100? That would be 8400-9900 base beakers. I guess that makes me waver on GE pop next (which, IIRC, I was completely opposed to about 10 days ago anyway )

 

[LowtherCastle]

mdy, real life stealing you away from us?

 

[mdy]

I still think we should let Moscow generate our next GP. Whilst it is true that the GE% rise the longer we delay it, if we generate it next we should be able to get 2 shots at an engineer there, which must significantly increase our odds of generating a GE there. Now we aren't going to get the HG I support running an enginere there to increase our odds.

With Siberia, GP farm, and pigs, adn the NE/caste system/pacifism not that far away we should be able to pop 3/4 GS in short order (albeit with a small chance of a artist in pigs, but we would get that anyway.)

Now confunicism has spread to Siberia we can build our missionary for the GP farm there, leaving pigs free to put it's overflow into the National Epic.

I am O.K. with pre-building the courthouse/monastry/aquaduct in the capital to let us put the overflow into Oxford. If we are not building the MOM now I think that we should sell calendar to Churchill to increase the chances that he builds it for us.

Whilst failure gold building a wonder with marble is more efficient than building wealth, we can't control when we get it. And an extra 250 beakers now is often more useful than 500 beakers 50 turns from now, and right now we don't really have the spare production for it anyway. Once we have all our basic infastructure up and running, and we have education I agree that it would be a good idea though.

I agree with relocating our units in galley city to the fort outside it.

I also agree with relocating some of our workers to the north.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Whilst failure gold building a wonder with marble is more efficient than building wealth, we can't control when we get it.

That's the whole point: We can control when we get it if we do it with our NWs or with WWs we want to build anyway:

NWs
HE 200
NE 250
OU 400
Moai 250

WWs
MoM 450
Taj 700
Krem 800
Versail 800
SoLiberty 1500
SpaceElev 2000

So Moai and MoM are the next two wonders that can provide us with a nice chunk of change. For this reason, btw, we absolutely don't want to speed up Churchill building MoM, if we can help it, although, all the better if he does it when we want him too.

Except for NE: If we're going to pop the next GP in Moscow, then we could slow NE down a bit, to put some failed gold hammers into it, if we choose.

 

[mdy]

In that case we still have some control, however we ware still partially limited to when it is convenient to build the wonders.

I thought we were going to commit Moscow semi-permenantly to a unit spam after we built Oxford/heroic Epic there. How would this fit with plans to build MOM there ourselves?

Once we have built our uni's we can put a few hammers into Oxford, while Moscow builds other things for the overflow, and maybe the NE whilst we build the university in pigs, other than that, in the near future we simply don't have the spare production for failure gold.