SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[WackenOpenAir]

I have 4 options with granary added in an excel. One with immeadiate granary, one with a curragh first, one with a warrior first and one with a warrior and a curragh first.
Each build before granary seems to cost 1 turn in capital development.

Now i will have to reason (i am not gonna make excels for 60 turns) what gives us the best research.

That is of course all assuming we will get pottery. The options without granary should also be researched properly, looking at what makes us research philosophy fastest primarily.

 

[killercane]

How does curragh and then granary look in terms of getting to size 12 quickest?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

cute forum doesnt take xls.
It doesn't take .rar either (this really is rediculous CFC, about as rediculous as the 10 character minimum)

So i renamed the xls to .zip. I did not pack it, i renamed it !

I have seen enough excel for a while now though, so i'll continue some other time.

 

[killercane]

Well, I say curragh and then granary if it only delays the add in by one turn. Having the cows all irrigated is fine since we can support some scientists at size 12 this way instead of working 2 commerce lake or sea, and 1 commerce bg.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Well, I say curragh and then granary if it only delays the add in by one turn. Having the cows all irrigated is fine since we can support some scientists at size 12 this way instead of working 2 commerce lake or sea, and 1 commerce bg.

That is an interesting idea indeed, it hurts production pretty bad of course, but better science is good. Note that my sheets do not include any roading on the ivory.

let's see what an MP is worth:
Simply reasoning, i'd think an early warrior is worth about 20 commerce as it will keep one citizen happy for about 20 turns.
It delays growing to size 12 by 1 turn. From size 5 to 12 that is. 7 citizens, that should be worth less than 20 commerce.
Reasoning like that, curragh + warrior would be a small improvement in the research.

The curragh before granary should also significantly increase our chances of getting pottery.

Therefore, at the moment i think the warrior+curragh before granary is the best option.

If you guys agree, i suggest i start playing, following the last of the 4 build orders in the document i posted. If i cannot trade pottery in time, i will pause playing, and start new discussions here. If i am able to trade pottery, i could stop at turn 20 like the usual procedure, or i could finish the build i made and play 25 or 30.

 

[Abegweit]

Go for it.

 

[Abegweit]

how are we gonna be sure if anyone is building the collosus, culture may also be from a temple after tech trading.
If we can know for sure, i wouldn't mind waiting for the other teams graph.

Zoe appears to have a temple. You can tell from the slope of the graph. They are making 3CPT, 2 from the palace (doubled after a 1000 years) and 1 from the temple. It would be 5 CPT if from the Colossus. If anyone tried for that, they failed.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

ye, but that only works if you wait for a whole turnseft after the culture increase. Anyway, i guess decisions are made now

 

[Abegweit]

Klarius, Zoe and X have made it to the point where success would show. There's even some possibility that Zoe's temple might be a failed attempt. Seems a bit late for that though. Still, that could explain why they stopped in 2590 instead of 2550.

Anyway, you are right. The die is cast. Lead on!

 

[Andronicus]

Now what would Mr. nice guy Gyathaar place there to make us really happy

Impi perhaps

btw, is that not a BG cow on grass to our west? I think your spreadsheet only gives it 1 shield, not 2.

Not convinced we need irrigating, wasted worker moves imo. Will try to post my spreadsheet later (I have to re-do it) going curragh, curragh, curragh, granary, worker, warrior, worker, warrior, worker, warrior, worker - all within first 30 turns. Commerce can be beest increased by using the lake where extra shields would be wasted. I also roaded the cow pl tile after mining, then roaded valuable tiles (the cows and a pl ivory) with mining waiting until more workers produced thus increasing commerce rather than shields.

edit - just realised there have been plenty of posts on next page after Paul's - oops

edit 2 - I disagree with chopping ivory forest. With all avail land squares mined and forests left we still have +1 fpt at size 12. Removing a forest deprives us of shields we will not be able to get back till engineering. They may come in handy in a race for SoZ for example.

 

[Paul#42]

btw, is that not a BG cow on grass to our west? I think your spreadsheet only gives it 1 shield, not 2.

Andro is right! The western cow is on a BG!!!

Let's redo some spreadsheets

Right now I think we should stay away from colossus and follow Wacken's plan. Irrigated cows support fastest grow to size 12 and most specialists than.
However I would like to compare it to a plan without granary because that is worth ~4 curraghs that could do quite some exploration...

Maybe we don't find pottery

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I did include the BG in my calculations.
I am quite convinced now that the warrior-curragh-granary build is optimal for research and good enough for exploration.
So if it's ok with paul, i'm gonna play.

 

[Abegweit]

Let's redo some spreadsheets

Wacken did. Seems solid to me.

However I would like to compare it to a plan without granary because that is worth ~4 curraghs that could do quite some exploration...

As he also said, we have plenty of time to explore. Speeding up research is the key at this point. Pumping out workers to jump up to size twelve requires a granary.

Maybe we don't find pottery

Then we discuss. The answer might well be more curraghs.

 

[Abegweit]

I disagree with chopping ivory forest. With all avail land squares mined and forests left we still have +1 fpt at size 12. Removing a forest deprives us of shields we will not be able to get back till engineering. They may come in handy in a race for SoZ for example.

What do you think of KC's idea - irrigating and hiring scientists? Sounds like a plan to me.

IMO, we have a monopoly on Ivory. The Powers That Be have given it to us, both for trading purposes and to give us the Statue. The former is actually far important than the latter. It's a boost which will last the entire game.

In any case, I think that we would be hugely unlucky not to get it. In the case of the Colossus, there are 30 other civs in the race. In the case of Zeus, there might be one. Big difference.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I did it guys, i played them !

3800BC: Meet Aztecs. Trade for pottery, Warrior Code and 10g.
3650BC: Meet Japan. Trade for The Wheel and 10g.
3500BC: Curragh done.
3400BC: Meet India.
3250BC: Meet Rome and Portugal. Trade for Ceremonial and 52g.
3100BC: Paris finishes colossus. We complete Granary.
3050BC: Worker.
3000BC: Worker.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Right now, the 2 workers are stacked to irrigate that tile.

When that is irrigated, we have a 1 turn worker factory using 1 ivory forest, the 3 cows and irrigated BG.

Since that requires size 5, we now have time to build a curragh.

I don't want to cut the ivory forests. We will like the production when we are gonna invade our enemies and engineering is far away.

As you see, we do not have a monopoly on Ivory.

 

[killercane]

Can you post some pics of the surrounding continents? Turns look good. Im glad we got pottery so soon, how nice of Gyathaar!

Paris must be an awesome location (Forbidden Palace spot maybe?). Hopefully they are close by.

Edit: We can outsource the Statue of Zeus to the Aztecs if we handle the logistics right. Do they share a continent with anyone? We could ally them vs. whoever (they will hopefully get a Golden Age), and then turn on them before the Zeus pops out any cavs. The only problem might be that someone else has ivory and then we might lose out. Outsourcing it though is nearly 7 swords more army for us.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I think we should now decide exactly how many workers to make and when to join them in the city. We also have a lux right there to build a collony.

1. Wacken
2. Abegweit <--------
3. Killercane
4. Paul
5. Mark

 

[killercane]

Well we need most every tile roaded, and at size 12 we need 15 spt, so whenever that can be accomplished we add em in. +1 for the lux colony.

Edit: Well 5 worker turns for each ivory (road + movement to/from the tile) and 8 for the hill and ivory forests= 39 worker turns not counting what they are working on now. 7 workers? 8? Build warrior to sizes 6 and then another to size 7 to get all 3 mps?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Worker joining
I see the following systems:

A)
-We build roads and grow the city to size 12 asap, we don't need extra workers.
-at size 12 the city can have 4fpt surplus. We can make a worker every 5 turns when the box fills.
-These workers can do the mining and jungle cutting.

B)
-We build excess workers as many as we think we need to do all the work before philosophy before we join the workers in the city.
-We use scientists at size 12 and we don't run food surplus.

A) Allows us to grow the town asap, but we won't have specialists. B) Makes us grow a little later but allows specialists.
Maybe we can mix it somewhere in between. A and B.

Tile Improvement
After philosophy, IW and MM, we just need to produce 30 shield units.
Basically that means we only need 15 spt as 30 is impossible anyway.
This allows us to irrigate the ivory plains for extra scientists.
However, before we reach philo, we could produce spears that we disband to help production later. In that case, 20 or 25 spt would be usefull.
I think however, the extra scientists will help us make philo earlier enough to outweigh the advantage of some 1 turn units with spear disbands.
Therefore, i think we should make us just 15spt production and irrigate the rest.

Edit: cross post, KC posted it in 1 scentence.