SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[Paul#42]

got it (finally).
I plan to play the first couple of turns in an hour. I don't start a war and don't do any trades.
Actually I already moved a worker but did not end turn #0.

foreign affairs
Fog-gazing at Tenochtitlan I'm pretty sure it is build on a grass-elephant and it has coastal access to south.
The best adjacent tile defense-wise is a forest to west.

Kyoto (size 7) otoh is surrounded by swamps. It has no coastal tile adjacent . Probably its coastal access is from (south-)east.

I drew a warrior to the hill 2S-W and will send him SW to gain some view on the Japanese coastal line. We could have done this before, right? Or did we hope to get a barb camp there for training? Now intelligence is more important than training. I rather sent a warrior to lull the Japanese intelligence

I prepared two invasion plans and wrote some numbers there, showing the turns our units would need. I chose the 4 units per dromon option for that scenario.

It would be easier to fight against Japan first. And maybe Aztecs really start some nice wonder for us. This looks most promising to me. We can't start the war before getting MM anyway - we should trade it immediately to our ally.
We do not need to decide who we want to fight before the first dromon is started. To Aztec land the way is clearly closer, it takes our dromons one turn to Aztecs, 5 turns to Japan. The difference melts if we compre the turns for the complete task force to be ready: 4 turns to Tenochtitlan, 7 turns to Kyoto.

internal affairs
In Constantinople I'd like to build a worker next, we'd spend one turn at size 11 then. Then some swords till either MM is available or we researched lit. When size 12 is in sight again we might discuss building another worker.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Yes, i think we should delay these plans until a new tech is out for 2 reasons.
-One of them might be the one providing the new tech.
-We want to keep our semi monopoly to hopefully use it to get that tech.

8 turns of war between them should be enough to have their forces kill eachother.
8 swords and 2 dromons we have in 15 turns, or 8 swords and 4 dromons in 19 turns.
With 2 turns of traveling, that makes turn 17 or 21 for attack.
Minus the 8 turns means turns, their war should start at turn 9 or 13.
I surely expect a new tech to be out before turn 9, but they should also have time to start their wonders, so let's hope we get our new tech within like 5 turns or so.

My thinking was
1) Trade gift maths +/- philo to Aztecs and Japan - wait till they start wonder builds
2) Embassy with Japan
3) dow Aztecs
4) ally Japan v Aztecs with tech (by this stage perhaps MM)
5) after 6-8 turns of war land adjacent Aztec capital with ? 8 swords
6) take Aztec capital next turn, then if sufficient healthy units immed move on their second city (reinforcing with new units)
7) once 2nd city taken unit support costs no longer a problem -> decide on timing for taking Japanese cities (ie is it worth delaying till useful wonder built?, but attack before they get chance to build up units again)

 

[WackenOpenAir]

If you build a worker, it will be size 12 again in 2 turns iirc. I suggest
keeping it size 12 and have that 1 worker mine the iron and the NW ivoryplains.
Then just start making 2 curragh and 8 total swords and we can still see if we build 2 curragh more or not.

Check tech every turn and we reconsider when the first new tech is out.

BTW, in your picture, we can unload just before the boat comes back in your northern attack plan. turning the red circle ino 3/4 and reducing unit exposure.

 

[Paul#42]

Then just start making 2 curragh and 8 total swords and we can still see if we build 2 curragh more or not.

You mean dromons, right?
Or should we have another one exploring NE of Rome?

BTW, in your picture, we can unload just before the boat comes back in your northern attack plan. turning the red circle ino 3/4 and reducing unit exposure.

Correct. I only thought of delivering quickly, just-in-time is much better, reduces storage costs

edit: Anyway, I hit enter now...

Osman demands us to leave - I give in.
Babs move 8 units, Japanese vet archer, reg warrior and worker show up on hills.
No new techs available.
I'd like to give maths to both Aztecs and Japanese and Alphabet (and Writing?) to Babylon.
Any objections?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

"You mean dromons, right? "
-Of course

Correct. I only thought of delivering quickly, just-in-time is much better, reduces storage costs
-Oh oh, this makes me think back of the JIT logistics at Philips when i worked there

 

[WackenOpenAir]

News report:
Klarius has conquered 2 enemy cities between turn 60 and 72. Since 72 is makes an odd number for a turnset, it is pretty likely this is the turn where they conquerd the second town.

They did build their temple and library before they started conquest. Last turnset, their culture per turn again had a significant increase.

They gained 21 tiles, so they probably captured the town that touches our border.

 

[killercane]

I'd like to give maths to both Aztecs and Japanese and Alphabet (and Writing?) to Babylon.
Any objections?

Maybe we can get something out of math if we wait? Or do they have gold available?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

"I'd like to give maths to both Aztecs and Japanese and Alphabet (and Writing?) to Babylon.
Any objections?"

Yes grave objections, as i posted a few times already, but i guess i post too much to read it all
Alpha and writing can be sold. But really dont spread math and philo !! Hopefully these can trade us MM, COL and Poly.

 

[Andronicus]

Alternative attack plan for Aztec capial could be 2 dromons drop 4 swords onto ivory forest 1S of planned attack point - they would be no less safe there. The dromons would now have 1 movement point left to return to where the other 4 swords could load up on that same turn.
If not attacked the first force can move 1N to attack point forest and be joined by the other 4 swords from the dromons. This gets all 8 swords to our attack point in 3 moves instead of 4.

 

[Andronicus]

"I'd like to give maths to both Aztecs and Japanese and Alphabet (and Writing?) to Babylon.
Any objections?"

Yes grave objections, as i posted a few times already, but i guess i post too much to read it all
Alpha and writing can be sold. But really dont spread math and philo !! Hopefully these can trade us MM, COL and Poly.

Babs are quite backward - giving them alpha would improve relations and open up other techs to trade if they are researching something worth trading.
I would also favour gifting writing to Korea for similar reasons - we want these scientifics to research useful techs not basic ones we researched long ago.
Agree dont spread maths or philo - but have we agreed on a policy if a favoured civ comes demanding?
Japan and Aztecs should get maths just prior to dow so SoZ doesnt get built before war making the war potentially one sided and leaving us with a strong AI to remocve from the south
My suggesion earlier was to cave in to demands freom scientific civs - keeps good relations and if we are at war we wont be able to trade turn of age techs

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Selling Writing and Alphabet is not a problem. If they pay just a penny for it, i'd sell it.

I have strong doubts giving away math if even if it is demanded by our closest friends. We really would like to use it for trade.

Alternative attack plan sounds good to me.

 

[Andronicus]

I have strong doubts giving away math if even if it is demanded by our closest friends. We really would like to use it for trade.

Yes it is useful for trade, but do we want to risk a dow from a potential future voter and co-researcher? esp when India already knows maths and if our friends know it they can research construction for us.
eg what if Persia or Korea demand maths?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

War isn't anything permanent right ?
Will it really cause problems ?

 

[Abegweit]

We are in no hurry to make war between Japan and Aztecs IMO. We won't be fighting there within 20 turns. If we make war now, they will be in peace again before we get there.

I'm kinda scared to bring this up again after the tongue-lashing I got the last time out but... if we aren't going to war (and I agree), then what do we build? I was certainly wrong about the lux effects of a market (I very rarely build them, thanks to Wacken's advice , and mis-interpreted what I looked up the Civlopedia) but it still does have two important advantages.

1) it pays for GPT deals.
2) it defrays unit costs.

BTW, I did not mix up shields with gold. Rather I asked a quite valid question: should we organise the capital for shields or for gold? IMO, we need gold.

Let me repeat the question. "If we aren't going to war (and I agree), then what do we build? Workers and a markets are all there is.

Edit: in view of the fact that Klarius seems to have grabbed two towns (I thought it would be more difficult), I have changed my mind. It is time for the

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Sorry if i responded to harsh before.

 

[Abegweit]

No prob.

The question remains. Are we going for war or peace? If war, pump out the swords and, when we get them, the dromons. If peace, a market is the only sensible build. A worker or two would be good in both cases.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

It seems all active people the last 2 days have agreed on the following plan:

We build one worker. This worker mines hill and plain for 20spt.
We then build swords and dromons (we assume we will be able to trade map making soon)
Our initial attack force will be 8 swords and 2 dromons.
After 18 turns, while this force is killing our neighbours, the worker will finish his tasks, we can now build a library in 2 turns.

At that point, we are 2 turnsets away from now and we will have new plans.

 

[Abegweit]

It seems all active people the last 2 days have agreed on the following plan:

We build one worker. This worker mines hill and plain for 20spt.
We then build swords and dromons (we assume we will be able to trade map making soon)
Our initial attack force will be 8 swords and 2 dromons.
After 18 turns, while this force is killing our neighbours, the worker will finish his tasks, we can now build a library in 2 turns.

Actually I don't see where anyone even enunciated this plan, let alone agreed with it. Be that as it may, I agree. Let's go for it.

 

[Paul#42]

Giving away Maths to both Japan and Aztecs I had thought as a decider whom to attack. Although I'm pretty sure both Japanese and Aztecs will start SoZ (Does Japan have Ivory?) I'd really like to see them start it. They are building nothing useful right now.

I'm not sure if they can spread it, do they know anybody? The Portugese curragh did not touch their borders yet, did it?
Of course we should not risk it.

Good idea on the aztecs invasion - although my plans should show that an attack on Japan would not be too much later
Getting Aztecs out first would be huge of course!

@Abegweit: The last 20 posts aimed for going to war soon, we wanted to start building swords immed, dromons as MM comes in (~3-10 turns), attack when we got 2 dromons and 8 swords. Only a lib would be inserted, maybe for a turn (with a warrior disband and a pop rush? - maybe we disband 2 or all warriors if we are close to unit support and make 16 or 18 spt?)

We have 3 swords right now, war preparation takes us 5 x 2 + 2 x 2 =14 turns from now to get the minimum strike force. If our dromons are not the final two builds, we can go to war on turn 16, so we'd declare on turn 8 of my set.

I'd like to give maths to our prefered opponent on turn 6 or 7, to our ally on turn 8 to ally him.

Here's a rough plan for discussion:

	Size	Food	Shields	build	      tech	    action
41	12	15	0		
42	11	17	0	worker	
43	12	2	17		
44	12	4	0	sword #4	
45	12	6	15		
46	12	8	0	sword #5	
47	12	10	15		      MM (?)
48	12	12	0	dromon #1
49	12	14	15			      sell maths
50	12	16	0	dromon #2	      dow, ally
51	12	18	15		
52	12	20	0	sword #6	Lit (?)
53	11	20	0	library	     
54	12	0	15		
55	12	6	0	sword #7 
56	12	8	15		
57	12	10	0	sword #8		attack

(edited after Andro's reply)

We could also build the lib instead of the worker on turn 51 (or 53) if lit is available but I was not sure if we can keep the pace.
And this would probably need the disbanding of all three warriors to part-pop-rush in one turn.

 

[Andronicus]

Do we really need that 2nd worker?
By that stage it costs us 3gpt (it becomes our 13th unit if we disband the 3 warriors) and delays the invasion for the time we are paying unit support costs.
IMO we want to capture the first 2 cities in as short a time possible from when we start unit support costs.
Provided last unit of strike force built is not dromon we can start the first 4 swords to drop off before final unit built. Following turn final sword can join the 3 others waiting and board the dromons

edit
Is harbour more valuable than lib as first infrastructure build after units?
Allows lux trading (but just realised trading our ivory allows someone else to build SoZ) - p'raps not