SGOTM 12 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

One thing I was going to ask: Is hooking up the cows to the East faster than the cows to the North? I ask because when we road to the city from the N cows, we can simultaneously hook up the gold. (I was going to test this myself, but if you want to play soon, I thought I'd check if someone's tested this).

Edit: Yeah, I'd like a little more time to look things over (Sorry I was running around with my son most of the day). I didn't want to hold things up, but if Neil needs more time, I'd like that too.
 
Updated save, with fallout added to the fish city spot and south of lake
 
I've run some test games now, trying both SIP and Crab Cove. I agree that the capital will be stronger if we SIP, but there are so many special resources and other worthwhile tiles in the starting location BFC that it seems like we'll face a pretty tough tradeoff between running specs and working good tiles. I know the argument that SIP is "too good" is an odd one, though. :)

When I run Crab Cove, the city isn't quite as good on turn 50 but it has more surplus food and uncottaged commerce potential, which sets up for a fast 50-100 growth curve I'm thinking. I'd like to test beyond 50 before committing to either to see how that plays out. It also puts more health resources in reach sooner, which is helpful for this start.
 
I've run some test games now, trying both SIP and Crab Cove. I agree that the capital will be stronger if we SIP, but there are so many special resources and other worthwhile tiles in the starting location BFC that it seems like we'll face a pretty tough tradeoff between running specs and working good tiles. I know the argument that SIP is "too good" is an odd one, though. :)

When I run Crab Cove, the city isn't quite as good on turn 50 but it has more surplus food and uncottaged commerce potential, which sets up for a fast 50-100 growth curve I'm thinking. I'd like to test beyond 50 before committing to either to see how that plays out. It also puts more health resources in reach sooner, which is helpful for this start.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make. SIP is better in the very short term, I think the coast spot will power past it though by about turn 70
 
Well my last test with SIP was to turn 62 where I already had a second settler out (first went to the desert hills site). I'll run that to 100 and see what happens, though I'll be going SW to the copper/Ivory site (I'd love to see something like that in-game). I'll then run SIP and Clammy Cove tests using neil's modified save to compare.
 
Even if we settle in place, a micro plan is very important. I, for one, don't necessarily agree with the proposed research path. I think it's likely skipping Agriculture is a better plan. The SIP can work: cow, cow, gold, gold, silk, silk before it needs to work the 4 food rice tile. The second silk only needs cleaning, not clean+farm. And there's if we get to size 7 or 8, there are perfectly good riverside grass+cottage and hill+mine tiles. Agriculture could be a fill in tech and might delay us to a critical wonder tech or to alphabet. The second silk is un-forested, so it is a 2f 2c tile naturally, and could gain from a farm or cottage. We could also build a library and use citizens 7 and 8 as scientists.

I also think we need to discuss our first non-worker unit build. Maybe it should be a scout. There are no barbarians and we could get peace with our neighbor. A scout would be a much faster explorer, and not that much riskier than a slow but relatively week warrior.

Which cow to pasture first might also matter, especially if we decide not to farm the rice right away.
 
Here is my turn 65 effort at coast.

City 3 about to be settled by the fish next turn. I have to go out with the family now, but I will contribute more later
 
Just for curiosity I ran both my best SIP save and Crab Cove save to turn 70, and the stronger capital site continued to pay off in the SIP game. I was running 36bpt at 80% with 3 cities built (though that might not be as easy with more widespread fallout) and had a library already running a spec as well, with Aes in 7 turns (none of the AIs had alpha yet, though). I managed the same 3 cities with Crab cove, but only had a 16bpt research rate because I didn't have both gold cleared, and didn't have enough pop to work both of them, both cows, and both seafood (size 5 cap in that game).

One thing I noticed about my own play is that SIP is a more focused start, with no diversion of techs to fishing or hammers to work boats. I was actually running into the happy cap before the health cap when I went with SIP.

I won't rule out the possibility that the coastal start won't eventually pay off, but it's looking farther down the road than I expected before I tried it.
 
Where did you settle your 3 cities.

Did you use the updated save, that has 2 extra tiles of fallout?
 
Do we have a diplomacy plan? Should we check the diplomacy screen every turn and sign peace with anyone and everyone who is willing? Should we sign a peace treaty with Stalin? War weariness could get ugly.
 
OK, I loaded the official save and learned some very interesting things.

Rival GNP is 18 max, 17 avg, 16 min
Rival Population 1000 max, 1000 avg, 1000 min
Rival Crops 4 max, 3 avg, 2 min
Rival Land 8000 max, 5660 avg, 5000 min

The above means all the AI have size one cities, as expected. All the AI have at least one water tile in the BFC.

Rival Soldiers 230000 max, 47333 avg, 8000 min

Stalin must be a monster. Normally with these opponents the numbers would be 12000, 10000, 8000.

War weariness with every AI is 97. In our test game, it is 21. I'm not sure how to change it in the test, but I suspect it means they hate us more than we think.

On the tech trading screen, Gandhi is shown as being able to research meditation, polytheism, fishing, wheel, agriculture, currency, masonry, animal husbandry and bronze working. Gandhi must have alphabet!

The event log shows we declared war, attacked each AI with warriors against modern tanks, and then nuked them. Maybe losing units is the cause of the high war weariness.

I'm not sure how anyone can tell that the Manhattan Project has been built. There's a spoiler in the rules thread that strongly suggests that it is built, but I don't know how they figured it out.

Fog gazing shows the three fogged tiles to the northwest are flat, grass (corner might be plains), no trees, and irradiated. They are not tundra.
 
Regarding the map, none of the fogged tiles have trees. All appear to have fallout. I think we need to seriously consider the possibility that the trees we see in the opening screenshot are the only trees anywhere near us. It's possible, in fact likely, that every nearby tile outside the visible screenshot is covered in fallout.

I've updated the map to more accurately represent the fogged tiles we can see, and to put fallout on our entire side of the continent. This also gives Stalin a large army, Gandhi alphabet, and increases war weariness to 97 for all opponents.

With this much war weariness, everyone refuses to even talk.
 

Attachments

If someone, presumably Stalin, has such a large army, but a normal pop & GNP, will he be able to afford to tech at all?

Gandhi, and then presumably everyone having Alpha is good news, it means that the first tech bait we learn should buy us peace, if they are willing to talk to us. Aesthetics or maybe MC ?

I am going to try a few options with Chris' new save


EDIT: STALIN nuked me on turn 6 !!!


He did no matter where I settled. When I settled the coast, the forest to the cities south was replaced by fallout. When I SIP, 3 forests were replaced by fallout.
Is this a realistic scenario ?

AFter a few more tests, I don't think this is realistic. If you SIP, and I am assuming that half of the teams will, then getting nuked is literally game over. 4 Unhealth, and no growth at all. It is not until the cows are pastured that the cap can grow at all. And even then it is very slow going. Turn 35 before there is any surplus food!
 
Regarding the map, none of the fogged tiles have trees. All appear to have fallout. I think we need to seriously consider the possibility that the trees we see in the opening screenshot are the only trees anywhere near us. It's possible, in fact likely, that every nearby tile outside the visible screenshot is covered in fallout..

The scenario intro says that nearly the entire world is covered in fallout, and that the survivors have managed to find pockets of relative low radiation. This probably includes us.

I don't want to argue more over settlers/workers/bpt... by a certain turn.

Settling in place is a huge gamble IMO, that the land we cannot see is not really crap. This is the primary reason I do not want to do it.

Think about it, if we settle by the coast, and the land is abundant and decent, we will be at most 10 turns behind where we could have been by SIP.

If we settle in place, and the land to the west is crap, we are up the creek with no paddle by turn 100.
 
Do we have a diplomacy plan? Should we check the diplomacy screen every turn and sign peace with anyone and everyone who is willing? Should we sign a peace treaty with Stalin? War weariness could get ugly.

In my last test, Gandhi refused to accept AH & BW for peace !

What we need is a good power rating, then they will probably be more accepting.
In answer to your query, I would say take peace whenever we can.


EDIT: If we have a team vote, and that vote is to SIP, then so be it.
I will not try to claim the high moral ground if it goes tits up, and I will be the first to praise everyone for ignoring me if it happens to be the best decision.

But I do expect everyone to reciprocate, if we settle by the coast.
 
If someone, presumably Stalin, has such a large army, but a normal pop & GNP, will he be able to afford to tech at all?


Soldiers is not simply just units. See this article. I've excerpted the relevant portion:

Spoiler :
Soldiers- This has been the most intensive and by far the longest to research, as there are many factors that contribute to this number. Firstly it has no bearing on the total units you have in fact you could have zero units but show 100000+ soldiers in the demo screen, you will see how in a second.

Factor 1- Population points. For every two population points from all your cities you get 1000 soldiers. So;
1pop = 0 soldiers
2pop= 1000
3pop= 1000
4pop= 2000
5pop= 2000
6pop= 3000 and so on.

Factor 2- Technologies. Discovering some technologies (mostly military but not exclusively) gives you extra soldiers. I have to say some of them struck me as a little strange, like Military tradition gives you zero but hunting gives you 2000, but I’m not here to argue about that. Here is the list of techs that give you soldiers. If they are not listed then they give zero soldiers.

(For BTS 3.17)
2000 soldiers – Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry
4000 soldiers- Wheel, Alphabet, Astronomy, Metal Casting, Compass, Construction, Steel, Radio, Satellites
5000 soldiers- Composites, Stealth
6000 soldiers- Mathematics, Chemistry, Combustion, Archery
8000 soldiers- Guilds, Fission, Flight, Bronze Working, Machinery, Assembly Line
10000 soldiers- Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Artillery, Industrialism, Rocketry, Advanced Flight, Laser
12000 soldiers- Gunpowder, Rifling, Military Science

Factor 3- City Improvement/Wonders. Like discovering some technologies, build certain improvements and wonders will increase the amount of soldiers you have on the demo screen. In this case you amount added for each improvement. For example you get 2000 soldiers for each wall you build, so if you have 5 walls, you have an extra 10000 soldiers. With wonders that give you soldiers, you can only build one so you only get that bonus once. Here is the list of what you get for each improvement. Improvements that don’t give soldiers are not listed.

(For BTS 3.17)
1000 soldiers- Trading Post, Shale Plant, Totem Pole
2000 soldiers- Walls, Dry Dock, Castles, Forge, Factory, Stable, Mint, Assembly Plant, Industrial Park, Levee, Dike
3000 soldiers- Dun, Barracks, Ikhanda, Citadel
4000 soldiers- Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works, Ger, Statue of Zeus
6000 soldiers- Military Acadamy
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point
10000 soldiers- Great Wall, Cristor Redentor, Moai Statues

Factor 4- Units. Finally each unit type has a different amount of soldiers attached to it, so a warrior contributes 1000 soldiers, while a Swordsman is 3000 soldiers. Interestingly enough a units experience points has no bearing on the amount of soldiers it equates to. Units such as scouts, workers missionaries and spies contribute zero soldiers to the demo screen. Here is the full list of what you get for each unit;

(For BTS 3.17)
2000 soldiers – Warrior, Quechua, Galley
3000 soldiers – Archer, Trireme, Caravel, Carrack
4000 soldiers – Spearman, Impi, Holkan, Skirmisher, Bowman, Chariot, War Chariot, Immortal, Galleon, Airship
5000 soldiers – Catapult, Hwacha
6000 soldiers – Swordsman, Juguar Warrior, Gallic Warrior, Axeman, Dog Soldier, Phalanx, Vulture, Pikeman, Landsknecht, Longbowman, Horse Archer, Numidian Cavalry, Keslik, East Indiaman, Privateer, Guided Missle
7000 soldiers – Cho-Ko-Nu, Crossbow
8000 soldiers – Praetorian, War Elephant, Ballista Elephant, trebuchet, Frigate
9000 soldiers – Maceman, Samurai, Musketman, Musketeer, Janissary, Oromo Warrior
10000 soldiers – Berserker, knight, Camel Archer, Ship of the Line
12000 soldiers – Grenadier, Cataphract, Cuirassier, Conquistador, Cannon, Ironclad, Fighter
14000 soldiers – Missile Cruiser, Rifleman, Redcoat, Anti Tank, Machine Gun
15000 soldiers – Cossack, Cavalry
16000 soldiers – Transport, Carrier, Bomber
18000 soldiers – SAM Infantry, Artillary
20000 soldiers – Infantry, Stealth Bomber
22000 soldiers – Mobile SAM
24000 soldiers – Jet Fighter
26000 soldiers – Gunship, Mobile Artillary
28000 soldiers – Marine, Navy SEAL, Submarine
30000 soldiers – Paratrooper, Tank, Panzer, Destroyer, Stealth Destroyer, Attack Submarine, Tactical Nuke
32000 soldiers – Mechanized Infantry
40000 soldiers – Modern Armour, Battleship, ICBM


It's quite possible that technologies (or improvements?) account for most of the "soldiers" demographic. If not, the AI with that power rating would hopefully be isolated from us (and not have nukes). This might have been addressed in the Rules Discussion thread:

My question is about "All biological units have died from exposure to radiation, except your settler.": does this include elephants, horses, bananas, fishes, etc?

No, there will be (mutant) elephants, horsies, bananas and fish available on the map. Perhaps. I refer to units that can be built in the game that needs to breathe, eat and *censor*.

I agree with Neil's assessment that Stalin having an ICBM doesn't seem realistic.

Also, did anyone check to see if any wonders had been built in the real save?

Edit: I tried Chris' save with the same result. I had the same problem with an earlier save, in that everyone was willing to negotiate peace at the first possible opportunity each time I played. Maybe we should generate a test save with "Random Seed on Reload" selected so we don't get the same outcomes from the RNG?
 
Earlier I tried a SIP variant where I hooked up the North cows first, so that in roading the cows to the capital, we'd also road the gold hill and get the gold hooked up earlier. I think this worked well, since the early gold gave us a tech boost.

This variation sacrifices growth for research.

My tech path went: Agriculture (8) > AH (19) > The Wheel (27) > Pottery (37) > BW (47) > Writing (55)

Builds: Worker > Scout (Warrior) > Worker > Warrior > Warrior > Settler > Granary

Pop:
Size 2 (turn 35)
Size 3 (turn 41)
Size 4 (turn 54)

Here is the micro:

Spoiler :
t1: SIP, work riverside silk, research Ag

t8: Ag done, start AH

t15: Worker1 done, moves to N cow (2 turns), start Scout

t17: Worker1 scrubs N cows

t19: AH done, start The Wheel

t22: cows scrubbed,
t23: worker1 pastures cows
scout done, start worker

t26: N cows improved, switch citizen from silk to N cows
t27: The Wheel done, start Pottery
Worker1 builds road on N cows

t29: road done, worker1 moves 1S to gold hill
t30: worker1 roads gold hill
t31: road done
t32: worker1 scrubs gold hill
t33: worker2 done, moves to E cows, start warrior
t34: worker2 scrubs E cows
t35: Capital grows to size 2, works N cows and silk

t37: Pottery done, start BW
Warrior1 done, start warrior2
t38: gold hill scrubbed, worker1 mines gold

t40: E cows scrubbed, worker2 starts pasture
t41: gold mine done
capital grows to size 3, works N cows, silk, and, gold mine
t42: worker1 moves to rice (2 turns)
t43: E cows pastured, capital works 2 cows and gold mine
t44: worker1 scrubs rice, worker2 roads E cow pasture

t46: worker2 moves to rice tile (2 turns)
t47: BW done start Writing
t48: settler done start granary (7 turns)
worker2 scrubs rice tile
t49: worker 1 & 2 farm rice

t51: rice farmed, worker2 builds a road
t52: worker1 builds a road, worker2 moves 1NW
t53: worker2 builds road, worker1 moves 1NW
t54: capital grows to size 4, works 2 cows, gold mine, and rice
worker1 builds road, road done, worker2 moves to ???
t55: worker1 moves to ???
Writing done, start Alphabet
granary done, start library(?)


and the save is attached. I will try some more coast variations.
 

Attachments

Right, clearly you need to use worldbuilder to take away the nukes I gave Stalin in the test game. Just give him something else. I didn't realize he could see the capital in order to nuke you. I think we can safely assume Erkon didn't give Stalin ICBMs in the real game!

There are no wonders completed in the real game.
 
What do we need to decide in order to play the first turn set of 20 turns?

1) SIP or coast? I strongly favor "SIP."

If SIP, then:
2) Do we need agriculture? I argue "no, research AH -> wheel."
3) Assuming consensus on worker first, then build a scout or a warrior after the worker? I argue "scout."
4) Where to send the worker first? I don't have a strong opinion yet. Probably northern cow.

For both SIP and coast:
5) Diplomacy plan. I prefer "check every turn, take peace if at all possible, stop and talk to the team if Gandhi is interested in trading technology." I think we should consider beelining techs Gandhi would like to have/trade.
 
Back
Top Bottom