SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

[Dhoomstriker]

I wouldn't delay exploration for WFYABTA issues, given the amount of trade we are likely to do I can't see this ever becoming an issue.

That's fine, but I still maintain that I think it will be a good idea to delay meeting Ragnar.

Avoiding WFYABTA issues was just a secondary reason for delaying meeting him.

The primary reason is that he needs to be Pleased in order to trade any sort of a tech with us.


If we wait until after we learn Alphabet in order to meet him, then gifting him a cheap tech like Meditation (which he probably won't self-tech by then) will give us an immediate +4 Fair and Forthright Trading Diplo modifier.

However, if we meet him now, when we learn Alphabet, we will have to gift him a quite expensive tech like Alphabet or Code of Laws before we will be able to obtain a +4 Fair and Forthright Trading Diplo modifier with him, and possibly even such a tech won't get us the full +4 (say, +3, which may or may not be enough to get us up to Pleased status).

So, delaying the meeting of Ragnar allows us to get a potentially better tech-trade deal as soon as we meet him... if we meet him now, we may end up deciding not to gift him any expensive techs at all and thus we might end up getting zero trades with him.

 

[shyuhe]

That's actually a mistake in my PPP - WB is 2 turns right now, no whip needed. So ignore the "whip" before the forge.

I won't have time to futz with the test save for the gold city until later this week but I'll give it a try. Same for marble.

When are we planning on learning alphabet anyways? It's not actually on the tech path to astronomy...

 

[babybluepants]

^^ We need Alphabet if we wanna bulb Philosophy, don't we? I wish we had a way of getting to it asap, so we can avoid teching little things. Hopefully someone gets it early and we can trade COL for it. With Willem and Vicky in game, it's a reasonable bet.

I'd agree with Dhoom's reasoning for delaying the Ragnar meet in a different game, but here we're unlikely to really need anything much from him in trade. Right? Edit: I'm thinking he's the ideal first target here, so scouting him is a good.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

That's actually a mistake in my PPP - WB is 2 turns right now, no whip needed. So ignore the "whip" before the forge.

Okay, yes, that sounds more like what was happening... it would take 2 turns to complete the Work Boat after having learned Metal Casting, but it would also take 2 turns to whip the Forge.

We already have (at least) 1 Unhappy and (at least) 1 Unhealthy person, which means that we lose 3 Food per turn (or more than 3 Food if it's more than 1 Unhealthy + 1 Unhappy--I can't access the game where I am so I can't confirm).

Once we grow to Size 8, we will have yet ANOTHER Unhappy person and ANOTHER Unhealthy person.

That's why we want to whip the Forge on the turn that we will grow to Size 8.

The only way to do so is (if I am correct in remembering that we will grow to Size 8 in 2 turns) is to spend at least 1 turn building the Forge while we are at Size 7.

Also, since we already have Unhappy and Unhealthy people, it doesn't make sense to delay growth to Size 8, in case you were going to suggest such an alternative.

So, since we want to whip right away, that means that we can either put 1 turn of Hammers into the Work Boat and 1 turn into the Forge, or 2 turns into the Forge. It makes more sense to put 2 turns' worth of Hammers into the Forge since it means that we will get bonus Hammers when those Hammers overflow from the 4-pop-whip into the Work Boat, whereas if we spent 1 turn building the Work Boat, we wouldn't get the Forge's bonus Hammers on those exact same Hammers.

The Food "gained" by completing the Work Boat prior to the Forge does not make up for the Food that gets lost in Paris that is caused by delaying the 4-pop-whip of the Forge.

That's why it's okay to delay the Work Boat until after building the Forge. Besides, with Circumnavigation, we will lose 1 less turn in Marble City of not working the Netted Clam, which is already a gain on the ideal Forge -> Work Boat plan.

When are we planning on learning alphabet anyways? It's not actually on the tech path to astronomy...

Well, we will learn Animal Husbandry -> Code of Laws if we're going for Pig City as City #5, which it sounds like is the right plan to follow. Pig City is close (low Maintenance), will have Workers ready for it (as long as we're relatively closely following the latest spreadsheet PPP for Worker actions), will have good growth for getting our Great Scientist, and has a 2nd Food source that doesn't require a 2nd Work Boat.

Code of Laws is not in major danger, I would think:
a) We have built The Oracle relatively early, which means that less AIs will learn Code of Law's Priesthood pre-requisite
AND
b) We were the first player to learn Writing (at least of the AIs that we have met), which means that the AIs probably won't end up being competition for Confucianism
AND
c) If I recall correctly, Judaism has not been founded, which means that if an AI wants to chase after founding a Religion, they'll go after Monotheism before they will think to go after Code of Laws

We need Alphabet if we wanna bulb Philosophy, don't we?

After Animal Husbandry -> Code of Laws, if we cannot get Alphabet in trade, we will have a few options, such as Hunting, Alphabet, Math, or even Iron Working, but I think that Alphabet will be the best choice, as it would allow us the chance to get some or all of the others, while still working towards our Philosophy Lightbulb.

I'd agree with Dhoom's reasoning for delaying the Ragnar meet in a different game, but here we're unlikely to really need anything much from him in trade.

Let's give him a best-case scenario of him being able to trade us Iron Working, Math, and Calendar (while for some reason, we can't get some or all of these techs from others). IF we okay with giving him all of Alphabet, Code of Laws, Philosophy, and Compass, we can get all of those techs. Perhaps we'd get a different tech from him in place of one of the others, such as Currency, Construction, or even Horseback Riding (but this last tech only if we have a way of building mounted troops).

If we don't mind the possibility of having to give up 4 "non-cheap" techs in order to get 3 techs (the first tech will HOPEFULLY be suffficient to bribe him into wanting to trade techs with us), then sure, let's meet him now.

At least he will give us Open Borders at Cautious, so if we're going to meet him, we might as well map out his lands.


HOWEVER, if we're just meeting him for the sake of meeting him and DO NOT plan to map out his lands after meeting him, then I'd rather delay contact with him.

So, sure, if we're going to explore his lands, go ahead and explore his lands (and thereby meet him). But, if we don't have time to explore his lands, then my vote would remain with not meeting him.


FURTHER, if we do plan to get Code of Laws and run it, then it's unlikely that any of the AIs will get said Religion. So, if we want to peacefully map out Ragnar's lands, it's best to do so shortly after meeting him, to avoid him Closing Borders with us due to the potential for built-up Religious tensions (he's quite likely the AI that founded Hinduism--a 50-50 chance). Thus, if we don't have time to map out his lands now, then meeting him later would allow us a better chance to map out his lands at that later date, without him Closing Borders before we've completed the job.

So, once again, I say: meet him now if we'll explore his lands, but otherwise, if we don't have the plan to explore his lands with the Work Boat, we'll be better served by delaying contact with him.

 

[shyuhe]

Oops lost my post...

Paris is unhealthy but not unhappy right now. It will become unhappy at size 8. So we have very little to lose by pushing the forge after the WB. The trade off is that we have an unhappy citizen in Paris for 2 extra turns and in exchange, we get a WB to Marble two turns earlier. I think this is a good trade-off since it will allow Marble to become self-sufficient faster. Plus, we can't whip the forge until T+4 anyways if we go forge first since we want max-overflow. If you include the one turn Mids whip overflow dump, it actually pushes the WB out to T+7 instead of T+2.

Also, can someone check my math? The forge is a 180 hammer building. We have 10 base hammers in Paris. So 4 turns invested gives us 140 hammers to go. We 4-pop whip for 180 hammers and 40 overflow, giving us (40+10)*2=100 hammers in the Mids. If we whip after 2 turns, we give up 20*2 hammers on the Mids.

As for alphabet, I would not count on emperor AI getting it in time for us. They tech slow and in my experience, will not reliably get alphabet until almost 1 AD if left to their own devices. We should get it after getting CoL, as it'll let us trade for AH and we can settle double clam instead of pig/fish first. Or we can settle furs. Either way, I don't see a need to self-tech AH when we can almost surely get it in trade.

As for Ragnar, BtS AI do NOT close borders once you get OB with them regardless of how bad your relationship becomes. So it's actually better to meet Ragnar before we get a religion so that we can guarantee that we get OB with him for scouting purposes.

 

[Mitchum]

I thought mdy's idea was to settle pig/fish next because we need it to grow soon and quickly for our push for Great Scientists. I don't think we want to delay it too much longer.

 

[shyuhe]

Here is a list of the techs that I think we still need before we start conquering the AI (from memory):

astronomy
optics
compass
IW (trade)
calendar
civil service (be careful of timing)
code of laws
math (nice if we can trade for it)
machinery
alphabet (to unlock bulbs)
construction
currency (to pay for our cities)

We will probably want engineering and maybe guilds/banking to pay for cities. As I understand our current plan, we want to get meditation--philosophy soonish so that we can run pacifism for two quick GS's in different cities, one of them being gold and the other being an as-yet unprepared city? Or do we want to gamble and try to farm a GS out of Marble?

We can skip AH in its entirety if we don't settle the pigs city. Alternatively, if we get alphabet soon-ish, we can definitely get AH, probably meditation, and maybe math if we're lucky via trades. So if we go col--alpha, we can get AH for free and settle the pigs/fish then. The settler from Paris will not be ready for another 17-18 turns. Add in another 2 turns of transit time and we're basically looking at 20 turns before we need AH. I need to crunch the math but is it possible to do both col--alpha by then? CoL is 525 beakers, alphabet is 450 beakers for a total of 975 beakers. Our research rate is about 40 bpt right now, but will be better once we start running scientists. Also factor in the 20% discount for pre-reqs and we're looking at an effective beaker rate near 50 bpt. That will allow us to get both col and alpha in the 20 turn window that we need to meet for obtaining AH via trade. We may have to make a lopsided trade (i.e., give up alphabet or something) for AH but I think it's worth saving the beakers since it doesn't slow our empire development.

As an aside, I don't see us picking up any of the other necessary techs for us except maybe calendar (depending on our tech order). We can also probably get monarchy at some point too, although it's not really helpful.

 

[shyuhe]

Also I was looking at some of the other power graphs and it looks like XTeam is going for a sword/axe rush. I think the target is Ragnar as I don't think anybody else is close enough to warrant a rush. Unless Vicky is reachable from the south side of her "island."

 

[babybluepants]

^ Don't really think so.

Population = ??? 12,000 soldiers (7-8 cities with 3-4 pop average, say 28 pop)

Tech = 40,000 soldiers (for rushing they'd need: Sailing, Hunting, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Alphabet, Metal Casting, Construction, Mathematics, Bronze Working, Iron Working)

Buildings = 3,000 soldiers per barracks

Units = 10,000 soldiers (5 MP warriors) + 2k per galley + 5k per catapult + 6k per sword/axe

Xteam = 92,000 / minus Pop + tech = 40,000 / minus MP warriors = 30,000 - that's 3 galleys and 4 axes/swords without barracks

 

[shyuhe]

With a smaller population, they may have enough troops to fill 3 galleys for a quick strike... Not that it really impacts our game.

 

[LowtherCastle]

No game to look at... After forge, the max-OF poprushes are:

3whip settler after 2t @18hpt = 36h (149h-112h=37h-1h=36h max) MM to get only 18hpt

2whip trireme after 1t@6hpt + 1t @10hpt = 16h (75h-56h=19h-1h=18h max) @pop4 = 6hpt

3whip library after 2t@10hpt = 20h (135h-112h=23h-1h=22h)

--------------------

Shyuhe, the Pigs settler should come very soon, wel before CoL, even if we skip AH. The only possible delay is to 2whip a trireme first. Basically, we're growing and whipping into the Mids as fast as we can. No need to go for max OF the forge, I don't think, because it's just a waste of turns. We want whips where the Max OF is reached in 1t or 2t at most, as above. The rest of the turns for growing , we build the Pyrmids.

---------------------

I'm not sure whether wb-forge or forge-wb is better. I don't care about a couple loaves of bread. The question is, how will we get at least 2 triremes out before the barb give us a royal shaft? If the sooner wb in Marble gets the job done better, so be it. IF we have to rely on Paris, then probably we delay Marble.

In any case, we want to 4pop the forge very very soon.

------------

To me, the highest priority for the Wilem wb, BY FAR, is using it for nets, it humanly possible. Maybe we could even build a trireme next in Stone. We need two triremes asap, one between Marble and Gold, and one for the PIgs area. But maybe if we can whip a trireme from Stone asap, we can get by without whipping one in Paris till after the PIgs settler. That would require getting a wb for the fish, which would probably have to be the Willem wb or one from Marble (In my tests it came from Stone). I thnk this is our most powerful opportunity if it's doable.

--------------

In terms of where to settle next, don't forget that the location has to be defensible from barb galleys. That 2-seafood island to the west is fairly exposed for now, isn't it?

 

[shyuhe]

If we swap Marble to go WB--trireme, then it will be worth getting an earlier WB there so that it gets the necessary food for the whip. It's an inefficient whip but it will give us two triremes the fastest (when combined with the Paris trireme). The other alternative is to build both triremes out of Paris, but that doesn't sound very appealing to me.

One thought is to send the warrior built in stone to the copper island to spawnbust that entire area. Then we really only have to worry about barbs coming from three directions (ugh).

Regarding the forge OF, whipping the forge on T+2 makes us lose 20 overflow hammers. Since we'll be stacking lots of whipping anger in Paris anyways, isn't it better to take two extra turns to get the same 20 overflow hammers (as the 10 hpt base of Paris) but with 2 extra turns of whipping anger cool down?

Something like:
T+0: 10 hpt---------10 hpt
T+1: 10 hpt---------10 hpt
T+2: 10 hpt + whip--10 hpt
T+3: 10 hpt---------10 hpt
T+4: 10 hpt---------10 hpt + whip (gain 20 extra overflow hammers over T+2 whip).

Or am I thinking about this the wrong way? As I see it, the whip at T+2 and T+4 produce the same amount of hammers but T+2 stacks a longer duration whip anger.

 

[LowtherCastle]

In my tests, whipping anger in Paris wasn't a problem, but I only whipped the forge and then builds for max OF. There's plenty of whip anger, but we go to Rep to counteract it soon enough.

So the way I was looking at it was the sooner the whip, the sooner we grow back and do the next whip. Each time, we're getting the whipped build sooner. That means the trireme sooner, the settler sooner, etc.

--------------

Have you looked at whther Stone gives us an earlier trireme than Marlbe?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Regarding the forge OF, whipping the forge on T+2 makes us lose 20 overflow hammers. Since we'll be stacking lots of whipping anger in Paris anyways, isn't it better to take two extra turns to get the same 20 overflow hammers (as the 10 hpt base of Paris) but with 2 extra turns of whipping anger cool down?

If we do not have Unhappiness at Size 7, then no, we certainly do not have sufficient Whipping Unhappiness to warrant a delay in whipping the Forge.

Indeed, the strength from whipping comes from growing, and spending turns with, say, 1 Unhappiness + 2 Unhealthiness hurts a lot in terms of growth. It's too big of a cost, since we're only getting base Hammers (Hammers from the City Centre + the Mines) from delaying such a whip.


When I was playing around with the test game before LC's turnset, I tried delaying the Forge and each turn of delay hurt us more than it helped us, even when I beelined a Work Boat pre-Forge.


If we didn't have Unhappiness and Unhealthiness, there'd be a stronger case for delaying the whip of the Forge, but that loss in growth really hurts us.

Let's try some simple chalkboard math to see if I can drive the message home. Let's say that after whipping, we'll need to grow to 42 Food, 45 Food, and 48 Food, on average, before whipping... so, let's say an average of 45 Food, with a Granary giving us 21 of that Food. So, each population point that we grow to will cost us an average of 45 - 21 = 24 Food. That 24 Food is worth 45 Hammers * 1.25 (for the Forge's bonus) = 56 Hammers.

So, each Food is worth 56 / 24 = 2.33 Hammers.

Thus, each turn that we throw away 4 Food due to 1 Unhappy and 2 Unhealthy people, we are throwing away 4 * 2.33 = 9.33 Hammers.

So, on paper it looks like we are "making" 10 Hammers, but we are at the same time throwing away 9 Hammers. That kind of math does not really work out in my mind.


Therefore, since it does make sense to whip the Forge as soon as we grow to Size 8, that's why I suggest delaying the Work Boat, as getting the Work Boat first does delay the Forge by at least 1 turn, costing us those 9+ Hammers' worth of Food.

If we were Unhappy at Size 7 in Paris, then there might be a stronger case for avoiding accumulating further Whipping Unhappiness, but even then I would say that we'd want to whip the Forge ASAP and then (only in the case where we had such large Whipping Unhappiness--which is not the current situation if we are not Unhappy at Size 7), would I suggest that we, at Size 5 or 6 (after whipping the Forge, completing the Work Boat, and regrowing) could have built a Settler down to a 2-pop-whip. But, we shouldn't need to do even that, since whipping the Forge is net-Whipping-Unhappiness neutral (+1 Happiness for having the Gold connected), meaning that we'll still have 7 Happy people to work with.

Marble City does not yet have a Granary or a Forge, so it's +2 Food per turn (from an earlier Work Boat), with us growing to City Sizes requiring Foodbox sizes such as 36, 39, and 42 (say, an average of 39 Food) give us 45 Hammers per 39 Food... barely more than a 1-for-1 deal. Certainly, it's not worth gaining 2 Food in a City that nets us 45 / 39 = 1.15 Hammers per Food, which is 2 * 1.15 = 2.3 Hammers per turn at a cost of losing 4 Food in Paris that is worth just over 9.3 Hammers per turn (as shown above).

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We 4-pop whip for 180 hammers and 40 overflow, giving us (40+10)*2=100 hammers in the Mids. If we whip after 2 turns, we give up 20*2 hammers on the Mids.

Okay, so, hopefully, LC and I have convinced you that delaying the Forge whip is going to cost us more than it will help us, definitely in terms of raw Food and this point is driven home further when you convert the raw Food into obtained Hammers and see that we lose about 7 Hammers' worth of production for each turn of delaying the Forge (including any delay by completing the Work Boat first).

Besides, you'll get more Hammers overall from completing the Work Boat after building the Forge for 2 turns and 4-pop-whipping the Forge at Size 8 than you will by manually-building the Work Boat before the Forge, netting you even more Hammers in the bargain.


As such, what I strongly suggest is that the PPP be updated with a bit more detail. In particular, it would be nice to see:
i. How many population points are planned for each whipping (2-pop-whip, 4-pop-whip, etc)

ii. Any trigger points used for whipping, such as "whip as soon as growing to Size 8" or "whip when we are 1 turn away from growing to Size 3," etc. That way, we can see if we are all on the same page or not and can debate or discuss any differences in understanding before the turn is played out

iii. Similarly, any trigger point sused for switching build orders before a build item is completed. For example, you might plan to grow Paris to "1 turn away from growing to Size 7" before starting on a Settler... and this info should be captured in the PPP, again so that people are clear on what is happening and we can quickly agree or choose to debate any such point

iv. If you want to make your playing session a whole lot easier, I suggest that you include Turn numbers and/or game dates (whichever you prefer using) for any of the trigger points from points ii. and iii. above. For example, if you record in your PPP that you will whip on Turn 1XX, then when that turn comes up, it will be easy to remember and you won't have to worry about doing the calculations on the fly. You also won't have to worry about forgetting to whip or forgetting to change a build order. There are a lot of other things going on in the turnset beyond what we can plan for in a test game and a PPP, so the easier that you can translate these details into turn-based (or date-based) actions, the more focus you will be able to spend on all of the other things that will come up during your turnset.

As for alphabet, I would not count on emperor AI getting it in time for us. They tech slow and in my experience, will not reliably get alphabet until almost 1 AD if left to their own devices.

I am afraid that you will be right, although, as I said, during my 100-turn testing for the Trade Route Relion-spreading theory, I did once see Zara beeline Alphabet before Turn 100. So, it is POSSIBLE for an AI to get Alphabet, but it is not a likely possibility, nor is it very likely that said AI would even trade that tech to us.

We should get it after getting CoL, as it'll let us trade for AH and we can settle double clam instead of pig/fish first. Or we can settle furs. Either way, I don't see a need to self-tech AH when we can almost surely get it in trade.

While it does suck to not get AH in trade, that's the cost for going for techs like Priesthood and Code of Laws before Alphabet.

Generally, you have two approaches:
1. Beeline Alphabet early, at the cost of empire development when you don't have too many Cities
OR
2. You're stuck self-teching all of the techs that you will need for Wonders and Worker improvements, since you are Wonder-chasing (i.e. getting The Oracle) and delaying Alphabet. I.e. Once you delay Alphabet a bit, you really have to keep delaying it until you've got all of your Wonder-based techs and Worker-based techs researched.

Since mdy has shown that we need Animal Husbandry for an early Astronomy, we're forced to self-tech Animal Husbandry.

With the AIs being slow to research, I do not see them coming anywhere close to beating us to Code of Laws if we research Animal Husbandry before Code of Laws.

Regardless, we will still have Taoism for a not-perfect but acceptable Relion option. Missing out on growth (by delaying Animal Husbandry so much) in one of our key Great People Farms, though, is a bit of an Astronomy-beeline deal-breaker.

As for Ragnar, BtS AI do NOT close borders once you get OB with them regardless of how bad your relationship becomes. So it's actually better to meet Ragnar before we get a religion so that we can guarantee that we get OB with him for scouting purposes.

As for meeting Ragnar, I don't really feel all that strongly about it, so since multiple people want to meet him, I will retract my point about not meeting him. I would prefer it if we explored his lands after meeting him, but if it is not practical to do so, then I won't stand in the way of the team wanting to meet him.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We can skip AH in its entirety if we don't settle the pigs city.

I see where you are coming from, but I believe that it is already too late to delay AH in favour of trying to get Alphabet first.

One consolation is that Animal Husbandry will be relatively cheaper than normal to research, since we have delayed researching it until after several of the AIs that we have met will likely know it (for sure, Vicky knows it, according to LC, and probably others do, too).

That's at least one minor point in favour of meeting Ragnar soon--hoping that he already knows Animal Husbandry.


Let's say that we did not settle Pig City. Here's what would happen:
1. We'd have a lot of idle Worker turns that won't be put to good use
AND
2. We'll have to build a City beside 2 Seafood Resources, for which we don't really have sufficient Work Boats
AND
3. We'll have to build a City further away, costing us a bit more in Maintenance
AND
4. We'll have more Work Boats in a further spread-out area (either 2 Clams in the east or Fish + Clam in the west as per the Barb Galley screenshot)... meaning needing more Triremes (of which we don't have any) or else having some of these Food sources simply being Pillaged
AND
5. Pig = An immediate 6 Food, while other locations offer us 5 Food (Fish/Magical Fish) or 4 Food (Clam) until we build a Lighthouse. The Pig square is just too strong for our Food-based early-Specialist strategy for us to pass up.

For the sake of delaying research on Animal Husbandry, I don't see settling somewhere else being a better choice. Add to that the fact that neither other location lets us grow as quick as Pig City will, and there will almost certainly be a delay in getting Astronomy by skipping Pig City in favour of one of those other two locations.

Alternatively, if we get alphabet soon-ish, we can definitely get AH, probably meditation, and maybe math if we're lucky via trades.

Well, as you yourself pointed you, we're unlikely to get Alphabet in trade, so Alphabet will not come soon-ish if we research it after Code of Laws, which is what we plan to do.

The settler from Paris will not be ready for another 17-18 turns.

Really? Why will it take us so long? 2 turns to grow to Size 8 and then whip the Forge. 1 more turn to complete the Work Boat. Grow while building a Trireme for 1 to 2 turns (see LC's message), then possibly grow while building a Library or The Pyramids until we are large enough to justify whipping the Trireme. Then, we'd regrow while building The Pyramids until we're ready to start on building the Settler, which according to LC's calculations takes only 2 turns of Hammer investment before we will whip it.

So, I don't see how we'd need 17 Turns to do all of that, but maybe I'm missing something obvious.

In fact, I would actually prefer it if we built Pig City's Settler before the Trireme and that we'd just keep the Trireme in the build queue as a 2-pop-whip-with-max-Hammer-overflow (as per LC's calculations--one turn of 6 base Hammers + 1 turn of 10 base Hammers, I think he said). In other words, plan for the worst, but try to get that Settler out first if no further Barb Galleys are appearing.

Still, even if we do complete the Trireme first, I really don't think that we will have as many turns as you'd hope before we will need Animal Husbandry.

Our research rate is about 40 bpt right now, but will be better once we start running scientists.

Coast = 2 Food + 2 Commerce, Science = 3 Flasks + 3 GPP. 3 Flasks are barely bigger than 2 Commerce, so I don't see that hiring Scientists will really give us much of an immediate Science boost. The big boost will come from the GPP translating into Great People.

We may have to make a lopsided trade (i.e., give up alphabet or something) for AH but I think it's worth saving the beakers since it doesn't slow our empire development.

Unfortunately, if we delay Animal Husbandry and/or Pig City that much, then I think that mdy's Great Person plan will be seriously put in jeopardy.

Honestly, the only thing that we are working against here is fear that we will be beaten to Code of Laws. In the grand scheme of things, getting +1 Great Scientist sooner nets us FAR more Flasks than we will gain by not-self-teching Animal Husbandry. So, we will not "save Flasks" by delaying Animal Husbandry if it means delaying our Great Scientist, and I assure that not-self-teching Animal Husbandry will delay our Great Scientist.

Since the AIs are quite backwards (no one beat us to Writing of the AIs that we had met and Judaism is still on the table from what I gather), there should be virtually no competition for Confucianism. Therefore, the best possible reason to beeline Code of Laws (the potential to miss out on Confucianism) isn't a concern at all.

We can also probably get monarchy at some point too, although it's not really helpful.

Please, no. Pretty please no. Monarchy is one tech that we do not want to take in trade. That is, unless you want to hasten the emergence of Longbowmen, due to the AIs treating Monarchy as a tech that is "valued even less now that one more player (the human player) knows it and is thus worth giving away to the backwards AIs," which puts every AI one step away from Feudalism.

Two steps away from Feudalism and an AI might ignore it in favour of researching other techs. One step away and Feudalism tends to dominate many AIs' tech paths.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

The other alternative is to build both triremes out of Paris, but that doesn't sound very appealing to me.

Well, doing so might actually be a reasonable idea.

Paris could do something like:
Forge immediately, grow to Size 8 and immediately 4-pop-whip the Forge, build the Work Boat (which I think gets completed in 1 turn due to whipping overflow + the Forge's enhanced Hammers), then building a Trireme for 1 to 2 turns (as per LC's suggestion of 6 H+ 10 H, so that it remains a 2-pop-whip with good Hammer overflow), then growing until we're at a good Size for whipping by The Pyramids... I'm not sure what the best Size to grow to will be, but I imagine that it will be either:
a) Grow to 1 turn away from growing to Size 6 (which might be best if we will be Unhealthy at Size 6)
OR
b) Grow to 1 turn away from growing to Size 7 (which we'd do if we are Healthy at Size 6)
then whip the Trireme, overflow into The Pyramids, then regrow while building The Pyramids while getting the Trireme into postion (probably out in the west), then get the Pig City Settler (invest 2 turns of production at Size 5 if we are Unhealthy at Size 6, otherwise do so at Size 6), then grow to Size 6 while building The Pyramids again (or while starting on another Trireme) and whip the Settler if we are Unhealthy at Size 6 OR if we were already at Size 6, then we can probably still whip immediately, since we will want Pig City's Settler soon... don't forget that it gets us a much-needed +1 Health, which will counter the Forge's -1 Healthiness,
then regrow such that we have the 2nd Trireme ready to be 2-pop-whipped once we are about to grow to Size 6 (if we'd still be Unhealthy at Size 6) or when we're about to grow to Size 7 (if we're Happy and Healthy at Size 6), again overflowing into The Pyramids,
then the next whip will be The Library, so we'd be building a Library for up to 2 turns (so that it becomes a 3-pop-whip with good Hammer overflow, as per LC's calcs) and then The Pyramids until we've grown large enough to whip it (on the turn that we grow to Size 6 if we are Unhappy or Unhealthy at Size 6) or on the turn that we are about to grow to Size 7 if we are Happy and Healthy at Size 6


So, yeah, there are a lot of "if we are Healthy + Happy at Size 6" clauses, but since I don't have access to the game, I don't see a better way of writing it.

One thought is to send the warrior built in stone to the copper island to spawnbust that entire area. Then we really only have to worry about barbs coming from three directions (ugh).

Well, if we aim to get 2 Triremes from Paris, doing so does free up Marble City to get its Granary earlier... I'm not sure if we'd need another Work Boat from Stone City before we would build this Warrior, but I think that you can make a case that:
"What good is a Work Boat built before the Warrior if the Fishing Nets will just get pillaged?"

However, I will point out that there is a maximum number of Galleys on the map, so if one doesn't spawn next turn by the Copper, one won't possibly spawn there until another Barb Galley dies.

Still, it sounds like it could be a fair compromise to get a Warrior before another Work Boat out of Stone City, since an AI killing a Barb Galley causing a Barb Galley to appear by Copper could get costly for us.

Also, if we skip a Trireme in Marble City by planning on getting a Trireme in Paris before the Pig City Settler (which will delay Astronomy by a bit), then we could also consider building a Work Boat in place of a Trireme out of Marble City, which would almost certainly give Stone City the leeway to sneak in a Warrior into its build order.


So, you can see that every little decision (even building an extra Warrior) can have its costs on our empire as a whole. We just have to be willing to accept those costs in favour of the greater sense of security that we will gain from additional spawn-busting.

Don't forget that our GALLEY, once it is healed in Stone City, could even do temporary spawn-busting of the Copper island, which may mean that we could feasibly delay this Warrior.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Shyuhe: One correction on my above post about whipping for max-OF in the Pyramids. Actually, you don't need to complicate on the trireme and the library hammers. Just build them for 1t to set up the poprush. The rest of the time build the Pyramids while growing.

It's the same hammers into the Pyramids either way and the MM is much easier. (Same reason it doesn't help to go max-OF on the forge.)

With the settler, we DO want to go to 36h, because there, we're turning food into Pyramid hammers.

 

[LowtherCastle]

MESSAGE FROM mdy:

I agree that we would be very unlikely to lose Confunicism to an AI if we researched AH first. It would still be advanatagous to research COL as early a possible though, in order to maximise the chance for Confunicism spread, and to minimise that for other AI religions to spread. Unfortunately I think that we will probably need to research AH first if pigs/fish is to grow quick enough (size 7 around 400BC).

When I was running my Oracle - philosophy tests alphabet was always available for trade before 500BC, so we may be able to trade for it later. I would be extremely reluctant to spend beakers on a tech we otherwise wouldn't need, and the AI's current tech progress doesn't look to bad.

Though running a state religion would be useful for happiness we could delay it until we were ready to revolt to CS to avoid diplo problems with the AI. Remember if we immediately open borders with Ragnar with him we will get extra + modifiers-so if we meet him early we would be extremly unlikely yo need the full +4 from gifting him a tech, and even if we did I don't think this is a problem. The chances of us needing to trade 4 big techs to him are essentially 0 (he wouldn't trade most of them if we couldn't get them elsewhere), and I doubt one extra tech like COL would do Ragnar much good-it might even make him more likely to research another "useful" tech for us.

We will probably want engineering and maybe guilds/banking to pay for cities. As I understand our current plan, we want to get meditation--philosophy soonish so that we can run pacifism for two quick GS's in different cities, one of them being gold and the other being an as-yet unprepared city? Or do we want to gamble and try to farm a GS out of Marble?

I think this was the Oracle-philosophy plan. In the MC plan I think our best bet is to push out 1GS in gold before the revolt to CS(around 400BC). This can bulb philosophy. Other revolting to CS/pacifism we generate 1GS/GE in the capital for engineering. Run 5 scientists in both pigs and gold to generate 2 GS for astro. Optionally we could also generate a GP/GS for optics/theology/shrine/GA in marble city. Total time in CS+pacifism 20-25 turns depending on circumstances.
​

 

[LowtherCastle]

Shyuhe, I think it would be helpful to prioritize our builds, concerning the barb galley threat.
1. The Gold nets are in immediate danger from the S, W, and N.
2. The Paris nets are in immediate danger from the N.
3. The Marble nets will be in immediate danger from the S.
4. We in no danger from Copper Island and the east until we net the fish at Pigs City. (see the picture) When we net those fish, they will immediately be in danger.

Remember, each barb galley will bob back and forth like a cork until
1. 20t after it has spawned and
2. it finds itself within 7 tiles of our fish nets

(it can also attack galleys and fish boats and chase them, of course, but I'm not talking about that here)

So our priorities, imo, are:
1. A trireme (or two) for the GGold/Paris-W/Marble area ASAP
2. A trireme as soon as we net the Pigs fish

I don't think the warrior build in Stone is a priority for now. More important is wbs+triremes.