SGOTM 13 - Spooks

Hi guys - lost my first post- will try again
I'm in an internet cafe in München, having trouble getting used to these keys

A few quick comments from what I can see -

All screenies seem not to have mediterranean resource- tobacco appears, no oysters

First exploration should be SW not SE as some posters have mentioned

Current MM(micromanagement) should prioritise commerce - recent discussion is on track

Consider MM (mapmaking)- galley (2?) on interturn with settlers + warriors (barbs could be problematic if turn of age aready reached ? unlikely)

Have to go

Have fun
Merry Xmas
 
München? You're on the wrong part of Germany :D

Do not eat this Weißwurst stuff. It's definetely not typical German food! :nono:

Enjoy your holiday here.
Will you also come to Hamburg?
 
@Killercane in particular: As indicated by Andronicus, you have the wrong resources displayed in your screenshot.

Please all make sure you have the SGOTM mod installed, or you may miss some resources. See the Reference Thread for details.
 
Merry Christmas everybody!

Abegweit, what's up? :bump:
I thought you were already playing? :dubious:
 
Will you also come to Hamburg?

No - we went from Frankfurt to Munich spending most time in Bavarian Alps (very cold, but fine days), then to England spending Xmas with my wife's relatives.

Our post count isnt up to our usual standard :( .

Hopefully someone will rectify this :D
 
I think it would be best if I withdrew. I'd like to continue to hang around and contribute to the discussion but I can't seem to get up any interest in playing Civ right now. :eek:

It would be unfair to the team if I just sloppily put together a set of lazy turns so I'd rather not play them at all.

So, to the newest member of the Spooks team, go get 'em!

And Merry Christmas, one and all. :)
 
Abegweit, that's a pity. :(

Especially as it took you almost two weaks to realize that. :gripe:
We appreciate your comments and if you want to sneak in again, let us know.

So Monti, go for it. Are you still out there, listening? :shifty:

Please describe you plans in short and wait for some comments from us before playing. :old:

Andro, Bavarian Alps are great, especially for an Aussie. :snowcool:

Well chrismas is over, so (regarding our current attendance here) happy new year!
 
:hmm: Monty lost in action, Abegweit lost at all.
Redbad still on the move, Andro on world tour. :hmm:

Wacken will you take another set to get things going?
 
just to increase the post count... ;)

Spoiler :
SGotm13_turn_40.JPG
 
OK. OK, paul.

How can a plea like that be refused? ;) Please. Pretty please. Pretty pretty please. With screenies on top. :lol: I just can’t do it so I am starting to play. I think you've actually managed to inspire me to re-gain my enthusiasm for this game. :goodjob:


Pre-game check.

CivIII installed on my new computer. Check.
Upgrade to 1.22 installed. Check.
CivAssist II installed. Check.
CD crack installed. Check.
Open game. Check.
Crabs, or whatever, look like tobacco. Check.

Sure looks weird to see the old graphics on my 1920x1200 flat-panel. :eek: Good thing that the other one is still at the right resolution. :D It's neat to be able to simply drag the mouse from the game to my notes instead of having to do the Alt-Tab thingey. :cool:

Turns should be up within 12 hours.
 
This is all about getting the maximum amount of science out of a civ which has almost no tiles whatsoever. Agree with Wacken with the 4-4-2 scenario and that the worker should be folded in. Furthermore it should happen now as there are no more useful tiles to work. After due reflection, I conclude that the worker has to join Osaka. Otherwise one of the two cities will never reach optimum size. Furthermore, this option reduces the shield overruns. Unfortunately, they will still be massive.

Turn 1 Osaka curragh -> curragh. Fold in worker.
Turn 2 Kyoto curragh -> curragh. Is there anything else? Swap BG and cow btw O & K.
Turn 3 Curragh sinks. :salute:
Turn 4 O curragh -> curragh. Curragh sinks. :salute: O -> scientist
Turn 5. Blah. Blah.
Turn 6. K curragh -> curragh. Curragh lives! :) 1.9.0
Turn 7 O curragh -> curragh. Land Ahoy! :)
Turn 8…
Turn 9 curragh sinks. :salute:
Turn 10 K curragh -> curragh. O curragh -> curragh. Curragh sinks. :salute:
 
I think you've actually managed to inspire me to re-gain my enthusiasm for this game. :goodjob:
:dubious: I did not even try... But nice to see it worked :)
Pre-game check.

CivIII installed on my new computer. Check.
Upgrade to 1.22 installed. Check.
CivAssist II installed. Check.
CD crack installed. Check.
Open game. Check.
Crabs, or whatever, look like tobacco. Check.
Don't forget that barb fix. If we encounter them, I'd like them to act at least remotely intelligent... :mischief:
This is all about getting the maximum amount of science out of a civ which has almost no tiles whatsoever. Agree with Wacken with the 4-4-2 scenario and that the worker should be folded in. Furthermore it should happen now as there are no more useful tiles to work. After due reflection, I conclude that the worker has to join Osaka. Otherwise one of the two cities will never reach optimum size. Furthermore, this option reduces the shield overruns. Unfortunately, they will still be massive.
I had thought that we would mine the plains to have more options to gain shields... :confused:
Turn 3 Curragh sinks. :salute:
Turn 4 O curragh -> curragh. Curragh sinks. :salute: O -> scientist
Turn 6. K curragh -> curragh. Curragh lives! :) 1.9.0
:bounce:
Turn 9 curragh sinks. :salute:
Turn 10 K curragh -> curragh. O curragh -> curragh. Curragh sinks. :salute:
one out of five... We cannot call us extremely lucky this game... :gripe:

While Kyoto needs to grow, Tokyo should work two coasts so Kyoto gets another 2-food-tile. :hmm:
When we reach 4-4-2, we could sell the temple if Kyoto and Osaka both hired a scientist. 11+8+5=24 bpt without upkeep.
If Osaka and Tokyo have scientists it's 10+8+6=24 bpt but 1gpt upkeep for the temple. :hmm:

So I think this one is slightly stronger:
Kyoto(4): cow,rock,fish, scientist = 11cpt
Osaka(4): bg,bg,Oysters, scientist = 8cpt
Tokyo(2): coast, coast = 5cpt
spares a temple in Kyoto thus 1gpt.

@Monti:
Whenever you are away for a longer period, please leave a message here to let us know. It's hard to plan when you don't know who's on the bench. :old:

Wacken, please go ahead. :rockon:

edit: from the war academy on sinking probabilities I derived that it makes no difference whether our ship ends on sea or ocean tile (it sinks anyway :rolleyes: ).
Thus we should try to avoid sea tiles because we are quicker on ocean tiles.
 
Another thing I'd like to bring up because it's closer than we might be aware:

If we want to prebuild galleys and start them loaded with settlers right on the turn we research MM, when do we start those settlers?

first iteration
Remaining research (tech cost according to CA2) at 24bpt:
Writing 207 - 9 turns
Pottery (worst case - we don't meet anybody) 116 - 5 turns
Map Making 685 - 29 turns.

MM in turn 50+9+5+29 = #93 = t0.
galleys 30s
Kyoto (4spt) starts t0-8 (= #85)
Osaka (5spt) starts t0-6 (= #87)
Tokyo (1spt) starts t0-30 (= #63) :eek:

Settlers we'd need to build before that. There goes the 24bpt... :mischief: :crazyeye: :wallbash:
Best plan should be to build a worker and join him right on settler build to have optimal growth, right? :shifty:

Wacken? :confused:
We need some smart diagrams here! :rolleyes:

edit: If the next island bears some barbs, we could also want to send some warriors (spears?) first...
 
I had thought that we would mine the plains to have more options to gain shields... :confused:
My thought was to get the commerce up ASAP, which I think was right at that point. Maybe not. You suggest building a worker later. He can mine the plains.

one out of five... We cannot call us extremely lucky this game... :gripe:
Well, the odds of getting across the gap are one in four, so it wasn't horrible. Of course all three of KC's died too.

While Kyoto needs to grow, Tokyo should work two coasts so Kyoto gets another 2-food-tile. :hmm:
That works. Wish I'd thought of it.

war academy on sinking probabilities I derived that it makes no difference whether our ship ends on sea or ocean tile (it sinks anyway :rolleyes: ).
Thus we should try to avoid sea tiles because we are quicker on ocean tiles.
We should avoid ocean tiles altogether. The odds on venturing that far from home are simply horrible, at best one in eight. Despite that, we might consider sending the curragh currently in Osaka due east. The new lands we have discovered don't appear to be very large, a guess which Klarius' growth curve seems to confirm. In that case the curragh can (try to) explore in other directions.

This brings up the $64000 question. How do we get off this rock? We should really have considered this before KC's turns but better late than never. I can only see two options: suicide galleys and the Great Lighthouse.

1) Galleys. Assume that we ship-chain. A galley has a 50-50 chance of making it across the gap. It then has another 50% chance of making it to the rendezvous point and back. So to be safe, we would probably need at least two on the other side, which means that about four would have to be produced. Plus a fifth to carry the settler away from our shores. This scenario has to be repeated every time we try to get anything out of this place. On average, we lose four galleys for each load we transport.

2) The Great Light. Osaka produces five shields in its current configuration and can hit nine with a temple and mined plains. That's 34-60 turns. The Lighthouse also provides us with many other advantages. To start with, it bring back the lux we see to Japan. It clearly helps with further exploration (in fact, it makes it possible). I think that we should definitely build it.

The next question is the research order. Masonry for a pre-build? Cost: 10 turns. Philo for a free tech. It's much cheaper than Map-making (just 15 turns).

I really doubt that we are going to meet anyone but we'll see... Assuming no trading opportunities, my vote is goes to Writing-Pottery-Philo-Maps with Osaka timing a granary pre-build to arrive with map-making.

The next question is what to build now. I don't see much point in continuing with the curraghs. Stocking up settlers and workers for the future is probably more useful. OTOH, this will cut into our research rate as the cities grow and shrink. The only other thing I can see is a temple for Osaka and wealth.
 
Nice to have you back here in this discussion (formerly monologue). ;)

At least the island to the west our galleys (movement 6) will reach without risk.

I had thought the chances to sink are 50%. So of our 8 tries, 4 should have succeeded. :hmm:
I'd send over to the western island at least one more curragh to scout clockwise, but then I'd like to send a couple over the oceans. Making 4 tiles per turn at the same sinking risk is better than 2.

Going for the GLH would be a huge risk imo. This is Demi-god. If there is a civ half as powerful as France in SGotm12 in this game, we have no chance. :scared:

Same with Philo. It takes us a lot of time to get there. Any civ starting with Alpha with a slightly larger island is way ahead of us... :shifty:
For a greater gain (Republic, Monarchy) it would be worth the risk, but not to save 5 turns... :nono:
 
One thought on the settler building:

Is it quicker if we build the galleys first and then pop rush settlers in Kyoto and Osaka after two turns? We could go 24bpt all the way to MM...
That would be t0+3 turns till the settlers are on their way. I doubt that settlers produced first can beat that.

As for crippeling our capital - I think we should jump the capital asap by disbanding our old captial. A small (or disbanded) Osaka would help that a lot / be neccessary if we don't have 20 warriors in our new capital
 
Nice to have you back here in this discussion (formerly monologue). ;)

At least the island to the west our galleys (movement 6) will reach without risk.

I had thought the chances to sink are 50%. So of our 8 tries, 4 should have succeeded. :hmm:
I just looked it up and you're right.

I'd send over to the western island at least one more curragh to scout clockwise, but then I'd like to send a couple over the oceans. Making 4 tiles per turn at the same sinking risk is better than 2.
Which is why I said it has something like a one in eight chance of making it across. It takes a turn to get to the ocean, a turn to cross it and a turn to land. That would cross eight tiles of ocean.

Going for the GLH would be a huge risk imo. This is Demi-god. If there is a civ half as powerful as France in SGotm12 in this game, we have no chance. :scared:
The risks may be great but the rewards are huge. It's literally a game-breaker. With a granary pre-build, it takes 27 turns to finish it after maps.

Same with Philo. It takes us a lot of time to get there. Any civ starting with Alpha with a slightly larger island is way ahead of us... :shifty:
For a greater gain (Republic, Monarchy) it would be worth the risk, but not to save 5 turns... :nono:
Once again, the rewards are huge. The difference is a lot more than 5 turns. Let's assume that we average 22 beakers, what with building settlers and all. That's probably optimistic actually. Then Philo takes 16 turns while Maps takes 32.

I also think that the risks are less than you think. The AI really does not like the tech. BTW, there is no France in this game. The top city is size 5 and the fifth one is only size 1 :D What's more, by this stage in that game, Paris had already completed the Colossus and the Pyramids. The Ottomans had finsihed the Oracle. It seems that things are slow all around because the Ottomans weren't exactly a huge producer.

The real question is how isolated the other civs are. Does anyone know how to tell what type of map this (supposedly) is? We would have a lot better odds on arch than on pangea.

To a certain extent, the two decisions are inter-related. I would not propose going for the GLH unless we also went the Philo route. We don't have to make this decision yet anyway. It will be about 15 turns before Pottery is finished. At that point we will know more about the map and the likelihood of a wonder cascade. I'm reasonably confident that at nine spt and a prebuild, we can get it done unless some AI has had a big head-start. Right now the real question is whether we want to continue to pump out suicide curraghs or to start collecting workers and settlers.
 
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