SGOTM 13 - Spooks

[killercane]

Well after a few turns we can put to wealth to cover temple expense. I dont see much to discuss so I will play now.

Preturn

Move 3rd warrior from capital to Osaka (city 2). Set to temple in capital, settlers in the other two.

Turns 1-8

Poking along. Temple in capital.

Alphabet in! Switch over to the 3 curraghs. Forgetting that it is bonus grass cow I mine the thing. We probably need to mine the plains and add in the worker in the 3rd city.

Turn 9

2 curraghs sink, but reveal land ho and possibility of land NW.

Turn 10

Last curragh sinks without making passage to the new land.

We have 2 new curraghs coming out. Somehow I messed up the management with the capital being 1 shield short and Osaka one shield too many in curragh production. 3rd city currently has a scientist until worker is added.

We can probably switch tiles around to get 3rd city back on curraghs. Its a bit confusing when you havent played civ 3 in a while. The management now isnt optimal as shown by the above shield differential.

Lets find out what is SW, so that we can decide whether to start making units or what to do. If there is an AI there they probably will have ironworking so we can see if it shows up on our island.

Speaking of that, perhaps we should not add the worker in yet so he can road possible iron. We know we have no horses (start with Wheel). Or maybe produce another worker later might be best to give us time to produce rax and a few warriors. Dont forget our money will be limited though unless we pull some from the AI, so not too many upgrades are possible.

We can run a scientist every other turn in slow growth 1 food cities. I think this will speed up writing a bit.

 

[Paul#42]

You're shooting fast, young man...

I had thought we should have a little break for some calculations...

Bad luck with the three first curraghs. I'm surprised that this SGotm features such a chance factor. I had really hoped that the shallows south would direct us on a real long way to the civilizations of the world without suicide runs.

I'd say we should send our next curraghs the southern way. Two tiles movement vassels are too sure to sink on the ocean.

And we need to take more care for the micromanagement. In such a small empire it is even more necessary to get the optimum out of our small towns!

And: I'm all for a good pace in this game (in contrast to the MTDG2 currently hanging) but we don't need to lead the pack by that far. We ran pretty good last game reading the other teams' graphs. After a turnset we should wait with playing the next set untill all open questions are answered or at least discussed.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

huh, are we about to mis a plane ?

There was so much to discuss, i didn't know where to start.

scientists ?????

 

[killercane]

You're shooting fast, young man...

I had thought we should have a little break for some calculations...

Bad luck with the three first curraghs. I'm surprised that this SGotm features such a chance factor. I had really hoped that the shallows south would direct us on a real long way to the civilizations of the world without suicide runs.

I'd say we should send our next curraghs the southern way. Two tiles movement vassels are too sure to sink on the ocean.

And we need to take more care for the micromanagement. In such a small empire it is even more necessary to get the optimum out of our small towns!

And: I'm all for a good pace in this game (in contrast to the MTDG2 currently hanging) but we don't need to lead the pack by that far. We ran pretty good last game reading the other teams' graphs. After a turnset we should wait with playing the next set untill all open questions are answered or at least discussed.

No one really piped up in the 24. There is really not much to discuss I dont think. Max science and build ships. If and when we find a neighbor, then we can plan. The SW looks promising, but Neptune's curse is upon us.

There are only 2 ways to proceed: by sword or by settler. So exploration is the key. We can have either workers or warriors ready but we need to know what is out there in time for MM.

The temple costs less than 10% lux slider. We can always sell it.

Indeed, scientists. Our third city makes 6 beakers at size 3 working 2 coast tiles or 6 beakers at size 2 with the scientist. The difference is the 6 beakers come sooner by 20 turns.

I think the shield differential is from sharing the cow back and forth in conjunction with those silly 1 shield rocks.

Differential naval movement is on so ocean is our friend. Do you know the differential naval movement Monti?

 

[Paul#42]

just typed a long letter and lost it due to system failure

So in short:

We have two members who have a look at this just casually and one to adjust his perception to our style of discussion. I don't want to lose them all at the beginning. No need to play gps-24-72.

This game may look easy, plain and boring till MM. The less we can do the more we should focus on the details. We are hemmed in on our island for some 50 turns. In that span, gaining 1bpt more or less makes a huge difference.

I already derived from the graphs that other teams took quite different apporaches and we should still do our analysis on the situation to chose the best startegy.

MM mismatches happen (should not of course ), but building a useless mine for six turns is bad, because we could well use a mined plains to build our ships quicker or have some more MM options.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Scientists: you are talking about size 3, but it will also be size 4. We could at least make a calculation instead of doing random things?

Temple: wow now we have 4 towns that are gonna be size 4, and 1 of them is gonna have a temple.

workers: we could have reasoned or calculated if we should build workers with the cow for faster growth.

In this early beginning, every bit counts and therefore i expected we would make a thorough planning for these turnsets.

 

[Redbad]

Question:
In the screenshot provided by killercane it looks like there are 2 seatiles between our coastal waters and those of the SW island. Would differential movement provide at least 1 extra movement to a curragh to make a safe passage possible?

 

[Paul#42]

Question:
In the screenshot provided by killercane it looks like there are 2 seatiles between our coastal waters and those of the SW island. Would differential movement provide at least 1 extra movement to a curragh to make a safe passage possible?

IIRC differential movement increases ship's movement points (mp) by one (that's a mere 3 mp for our curraghs). Movement cost is 3 mp for coast, 2 mp for sea and 1 mp for Ocean.

We're only safe on coastal tiles, there's never an ocean tile next to a coastal tile so we will always use our first two mp for the sea and end on sea / ocean tile with our silly 3 mp.

Curraghs are a pain for non-SEA civs...

btw: I've just lost my second epic post today by system failure and will write the next in an editor.
But for now I'm not in the mood to do such a long analysis on city sizes again...

 

[killercane]

Well I think we can build a worker in the 2nd city for add in. But only after the curraghs. My gut tells me that will be beneficial.

Sorry for playing quickly. Maybe we can adopt a 48-96 rule?

 

[Abegweit]

I think that the rule should be to describe what you plan to do and then tell folks that, if there are no objections before such-and-such a time (at least 12 hours out), you will do exactly that.

In your defence, there wasn't much discussion before any of the turnsets so far. But it needs to change. With such a small civ, recovering from mistakes is going to be hard.

 

[AlanH]

IIRC differential movement increases ship's movement points (mp) by one (that's a mere 3 mp for our curraghs). Movement cost is 3 mp for coast, 2 mp for sea and 1 mp for Ocean.

The movement costs are right, but not the movement points. A ship's movement points are doubled, so that movement in sea is the same as in a standard game.

 

[killercane]

So what do we do from here? Can we calculate with building a worker after curragh in 2nd city? We will hit population limit soon.

Since at size 5 the capital will have only one food and have to use sea, is it better to run a scientist every other turn there with lux at 10% on the growth turns or run a scientist at size 4?

 

[Paul#42]

Better than ever hitting size 5 in the capital is have size 4 as maximum and rather let Osaka get some food.

4-3-2 should be the best sizes for our towns, so we run 0% lux.

From which town we get our workers is also not important - it should be Kyoto or Osaka. Both could do 5spt for two-turn workers when they are about to grow.

4-3-2
We could run Kyoto as a 11-turn-3-curraghs-1-worker factory:
Kyoto (4) cow, BG, fish, rocks -> +2fpt, 6spt, 9cpt
Osaka (3) BG, coast, coast / plains -> 0fpt, 3 / 5 spt, 6 / 5 cpt
Tokyo (2) Oysters, scientist -> 0fpt, 1spt, 6 cpt

Once per curragh (6+6+4) or worker (6+4) we could pass the BG from Kyoto to Osaka or even to Tokyo to give them some more production.
edit. Actually that's tough, no 2fpt-tile available, we'd have to use a coast then...

MM hell, this.

Or rather:
3-3-3
Kyoto (3)
a) cow, bg, rocks: +2fpt, 6spt, 8cpt
b) cow, fish, rocks: +2fpt, 4spt, 9cpt
Osaka (3)
a) fish, coast, coast 0fpt, 1spt, 7cpt
b) BG, coast, coast 0fpt, 3spt, 6cpt
Tokyo (3)
Osters, BG, scientist: 0fpt, 3spt, 6cpt

We could sell the temple and make 21cpt. 24cpt if we don't grow Kyoto but hire a scientist at size 4.
I favor that one. Although it would mean a wasted temple.

5-3-3
Or we grow Kyoto to five at 10% lux with two worker joins:
Kyoto (5)
a) cow, bg, rocks, coast, coast: 0fpt, 6spt, 12cpt
making 24cpt (1 of them lux tax, another tax for the temple)

 

[killercane]

Better than ever hitting size 5 in the capital is have size 4 as maximum and rather let Osaka get some food.

4-3-2 should be the best sizes for our towns, so we run 0% lux.

From which town we get our workers is also not important - it should be Kyoto or Osaka. Both could do 5spt for two-turn workers when they are about to grow.

We could run Kyoto as a 11-turn-3-curraghs-1-worker factory:
Kyoto (4) cow, BG, fish, rocks -> +2fpt, 6spt, 9cpt
Osaka (3) BG, coast, coast / plains -> 0fpt, 3 / 5 spt, 6 / 5 cpt
Tokyo (2) Oysters, scientist -> 0fpt, 1spt, 6 cpt

Once per curragh (6+6+4) or worker (6+4) we could pass the BG from Kyoto to Osaka or even to Tokyo to give them some more production.
edit. Actually that's tough, no 2fpt-tile available, we'd have to use a coast then...

MM hell, this.

I was talking about Kyoto's 4th and 5th pop. They should generate alternatively +3 commerce (2 seatiles (4 commerce) -1 for 10% lux) and +5 commerce (scientist +2 from seatile) by switching rather than the steady +3 of a scientist. You are saying we lose 2 commerce in the other towns by running 10% lux on growth turns? That was my suspicion but I thought I would pose it. Or am I miscounting food and we wont be +1 at size 5?

 

[Paul#42]

I was talking about Kyoto's 4th and 5th pop. They should generate alternatively +3 commerce (2 seatiles (4 commerce) -1 for 10% lux) and +5 commerce (scientist +2 from seatile) by switching rather than the steady +3 of a scientist. You are saying we lose 2 commerce in the other towns by running 10% lux on growth turns? That was my suspicion but I thought I would pose it. Or am I miscounting food and we wont be +1 at size 5?

No, you are right. But rather than growing Kyoto to 5 we should pass 2fpt-tiles to Osaka and Tokyo. They lose their 6th commerce to a smiley at 10%.
But no need to go 10% if Kyoto stays <5.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

So,

If we max our population to work tiles at size 4-4-4 or 5-4-3, we would use 12 tiles, 3 land and 9 sea. For a total of 26 commerce. This costs 3commerce deu to 10% lux. leaves 23 science.

If instead, we choose to have 2 fewer tiles used, we don't need the slider since we can support 4-3-3 land working tiles. We will now have only 22 commerce, but don't pay lux, 20 it leaves 22 commerce. We have 2 food for 1 scientists. So 25 science can be made here.

Since, in Tokyo there will be 1 corruption at size 3, it will produce the same science at size 1+scientist, but it needs less population like this.

Kyoto(4): cow,rock,coast,coast = 10cpt
Osaka(4): bg,bg,fish, scientist = 8cpt
Tokyo(2): Oysters, scientist = 6cpt

I don't think we should build any workers. If we are gonna have 2 scientists, we have plenty of food surplus until we activate those scientists. We can shove that food around a bit to concentrate growth where we want it.
Currently, we want only Kyoto to grow 1 and Osaka to grow 2. The worker can in the end be added to 1 of them.

At the moment, we can max out food by having Tokyo use 2 coastal tiles, Osaka the BG and Oyster and have Kyoto use the cow, fish and BG.

Kyoto will grow in 4 and Osaka in 5. Kyoto then doesn't need to grow anymore, it stops using the cow and starts using coast, with the 4th citizen also on coast, that makes it in food balance.

Osaka could now use the cow for 3 fpt surpluss to grow in 7 if we would like to. If we do this, we would have our target sizes without adding the worker. When Osaka is done growing, it stops using Tokyo's oyster, so tokyo can increase it's science by 1. This 7 turns delay would cost us 21 science. That is the price of keeping the worker.

I am not really so worried about what towns will use what tiles by the time the towns are at their target size. The total commerce should be constant as we prevent having any corruption and we will be using pretty much the same tiles, just in other towns. By then, we'll be able to micromanage to optimize production.

 

[Paul#42]

sounds good, Wacken.
Sorry I posted such confusing stories.

If nobody objects I think we can play on now.
Abe?

I guess we need to get out of the cage now to get more stuff to plan...

One more thing - where do we send our curraghs?
I think south-west is the way we are meant to send them - that urges me to attempt east and south also...
... but not before one or two made it over to the other coast, right?

 

[Redbad]

Yes, I would agree. SE first and then other directions. Meeting people is important.

 

[Paul#42]

Abegweit?

We are last in discussion (post count). I cannot tolerate this.

Let's play the game quickly now till we get exciting moments again.

I'm getting bored.

 

[Abegweit]

OK. Consider this a Got It, I'll put my turns in within 23 hours, either this aft or early tomorrow morning (PST).