SGOTM 14 - Ivan

[Othniel]

Glad you were able to play. I'll take a look at the save by tomorrow night. One comment from the screenie: if we want to settler-abandon Edrine, it will have to be at size 2 so we need it to start growing a little.

 

[templar_x]

lurker's comment: othniel, you don´t. you can settler abandon it @ size 1 as long as you don´t have a food surplus

 

[ignas]

Leave Lisbon as barracks

I thought we were agreed on galleys.

Bah, forgot to switch the Oporto courthouse build until now, waste 5 shields, oh well

wasting shields is not good, should have shortrushed to temple and swithed to knight on the IBT

Lisbon galley-knight

knight doesn't fit in 6turn galley/horse/settler factory

 

[I. Larkin]

1. We're doing OK as far as money for horse upgrades goes. It may be optimal to rush the barracks at Mecca (or, better, chop a forest into it) so we can upgrade there, not a big deal either way though. Forest chop is probably best. Either way, a couple of galley rushes in the east will be necessary, but we have three on the northern passage, one curragh that can upgrade, and one more galley following that may arrive just in time but it's close. At any rate, two galley rushes in the east should be doable.

2. We have two turns left on peace with the Ottomans. Before we declare war, I'd love to see what that orange border to the north of France is (see screen shot). I think it's the Inca, but if I am wrong and it's Ottoman, that makes for some interesting possibilities, notably taking out BOTH Ottoman cities in the north and making some densely-packed jail cells for our captive civs.

3. I have seen no Babylonian units, we're still at war. I'd leave one or two knights home to guard against that and build a force to take them out.

4. The pikes in Evora and Leiria are meant for the French invasion. I think it might be wise to have a few more after that though.

5. May want to make peace with Japan before ending turn? That galley is almost certainly empty but why let it take a potshot at our galley there? We're also very very thin on defense anywhere out west; I'm perhaps paranoid about it but it's Russia and the Zulu over there, I can't be too far wrong.

6. Check the MMing. I'm probably missing a fair amount.

Looked at save. More or less OK. Strange, that WH gone somewhere...

Our Income higher that I planed, that also OK. Lisbon suppose to be Galley/Settler Combo, knight is not in time. So it will be Galley -> Settler, and then may be Knight -> Worker?
Gui may have KT in 12, We could be ready for that. If not, better delay KT, than delay "D Day".. To be in time, Pickman should go from Opporto.

We have to prepare to GA.
Lagos may start Market place.
Emeria Marketplace and Harbor.
Opporto may grow faster.
We may Irrigate more GL at initial stage.

1) Worker shoul develop Uskudar area and bring water to Mekka somehow. It is no time to Chop, I think. "In general" it needs harbor first, but we need precise count: do we have enough time for Horse go back and forth?
2)Question is will we hold Otto/French war? May be yes. But what we gain from this war? Resettel Babylon there? (Arabs will go to America, I think). May be make peace with Babylon now?
3) WH from Babylon gone?
4) Is it enogh time to go there? defenetly Opporto should build Picks.
5) No. We have 6 turns MA with Persia. We may send warrior to Combria (to upgrade) and build Galley in Lisbon and next turn Shipchain Knight from Opporto to Combria If japan landing.
6) OK in general, Opporto may grow faster, Leiera do not need 5 spt, Lagos may use mined Iron.

 

[eldar]

Got it. I will try to look at it later today.

 

[DWetzel]

I thought we were agreed on galleys.



wasting shields is not good, should have shortrushed to temple and swithed to knight on the IBT



knight doesn't fit in 6turn galley/horse/settler factory

I thought we agreed on the galley/horse/settler combo (which worked well enough)--seemed pointless to do that and have it kick out regular horses. I could have gone galley/galley/settler, I suppose, but I think we get "enough" galleys this way.

Agreed on the courthouse, that was a little bit silly-it should have been switched over to the knight the turn before. Careless.

No, a knight doesn't fit that cycle--but it's hard to build horses with iron hooked up! Again, we can easily get it back on galley/galley/settler if that is what the team thinks best--but right now I think we'll have "enough" galleys to do what we want to do (and at any rate we can churn them out quickly) but knights are more of an issue. If it's decently MMed I think it can do a knight-settler cycle.

 

[DWetzel]

Looked at save. More or less OK. Strange, that WH gone somewhere...

Our Income higher that I planed, that also OK. Lisbon suppose to be Galley/Settler Combo, knight is not in time. So it will be Galley -> Settler, and then may be Knight -> Worker?
Gui may have KT in 12, We could be ready for that. If not, better delay KT, than delay "D Day".. To be in time, Pickman should go from Opporto.

We have to prepare to GA.
Lagos may start Market place.
Emeria Marketplace and Harbor.
Opporto may grow faster.
We may Irrigate more GL at initial stage.

1) Worker shoul develop Uskudar area and bring water to Mekka somehow. It is no time to Chop, I think. "In general" it needs harbor first, but we need precise count: do we have enough time for Horse go back and forth?
2)Question is will we hold Otto/French war? May be yes. But what we gain from this war? Resettel Babylon there? (Arabs will go to America, I think). May be make peace with Babylon now?
3) WH from Babylon gone?
4) Is it enogh time to go there? defenetly Opporto should build Picks.
5) No. We have 6 turns MA with Persia. We may send warrior to Combria (to upgrade) and build Galley in Lisbon and next turn Shipchain Knight from Opporto to Combria If japan landing.
6) OK in general, Opporto may grow faster, Leiera do not need 5 spt, Lagos may use mined Iron.

1. Agreed, but I think the timing is such that a chop may be useful to get the barracks up to upgrade the last couple of horses more or less on-site. We have enough workers making their way over there to road/mine more or less as quickly as we can use the tiles. The "danger" is that the last couple of horse upgrades won't be able to reach the east coast in time. If we can upgrade on the east coast, that's not a concern.

2. I think making peace with Babylon is not necessary. Our next batch of knights should go claim the SoZ, and we'll be building those fairly quickly. More importantly, Babylon has sent zero units--they are in a nice long ugly war with Russia still. Obviously if a stack of ACav show up, things change.

The Ottomans have a decent number of defensive units but not much else--we can DoW them if needed and take one of their two cities as planned. It makes most sense to take the western one and raze it, we can then resettle that area very densely and probably get three cities up there for gifting. Heck, while we are at war we can probably even settle inside Ottoman borders and gift that one to somebody.

3. It shouldn't be. Arabs, maybe? Were we getting WH from them? Made peace with them so we can gift them into the tundra later.

4. Yes, those units should arrive at the east coast (and be able to load onto a ship) in 9 turns at latest if my math is right. It's close but it's OK.

5. Ah yes, that. At any rate, I don't think that galley has anything on it--pretty sure it was exploring. The next one probably will though.

6. Agreed--though Lagos doesn't need the iron as I had it on 2-turn worker duty. Leiria I think I had cranked up specifically to get that pike in time. Oporto I don't have strong feelings about--I did that I think to get the next knight to the front in time without rushing anything, since we have enough horses to upgrade to use the incoming cash for the next 8 turns or so.


I did not do it at all but there's probably 200-300 or so gold that could in theory be picked up right now for older techs. Might be worth looking into for that little extra oomph if we need it.

 

[nerovats]

Was a bit buisy lately but agree with plans.
When attacking France we could generously give them monarchy the turn before.
Think some cities can use some more MM, Lisbon and Lagos can share the wheat. Gui can get KT earlier.
Can also give Zulu Monarchy and demand they leave to get WH again. Not sure how much it will cost though, they have lot of units as they average to us. We do have 10 turns before we ship out. But just 4 knights now. Zulu's are close to ship point, and won't be able to strike back much. So could do it in few turns. Make 5 turn war and ship out on time.

 

[I. Larkin]

0. No, a knight doesn't fit that cycle--but it's hard to build horses with iron hooked up! Again, we can easily get it back on galley/galley/settler if that is what the team thinks best--but right now I think we'll have "enough" galleys to do what we want to do (and at any rate we can churn them out quickly) but knights are more of an issue. If it's decently MMed I think it can do a knight-settler cycle.

1. Agreed, but I think the timing is such that a chop may be useful to get the barracks up to upgrade the last couple of horses more or less on-site. We have enough workers making their way over there to road/mine more or less as quickly as we can use the tiles. The "danger" is that the last couple of horse upgrades won't be able to reach the east coast in time. If we can upgrade on the east coast, that's not a concern.

2. I think making peace with Babylon is not necessary. Our next batch of knights should go claim the SoZ, and we'll be building those fairly quickly. More importantly, Babylon has sent zero units--they are in a nice long ugly war with Russia still. Obviously if a stack of ACav show up, things change.

Heck, while we are at war we can probably even settle inside Ottoman borders and gift that one to somebody.

3. It shouldn't be. Arabs, maybe? Were we getting WH from them? Made peace with them so we can gift them into the tundra later.

4. Yes, those units should arrive at the east coast (and be able to load onto a ship) in 9 turns at latest if my math is right. It's close but it's OK.

5. Ah yes, that. At any rate, I don't think that galley has anything on it--pretty sure it was exploring. The next one probably will though.

6. Agreed--though Lagos doesn't need the iron as I had it on 2-turn worker duty. Leiria I think I had cranked up specifically to get that pike in time. Oporto I don't have strong feelings about--I did that I think to get the next knight to the front in time without rushing anything, since we have enough horses to upgrade to use the incoming cash for the next 8 turns or so.


7. I did not do it at all but there's probably 200-300 or so gold that could in theory be picked up right now for older techs. Might be worth looking into for that little extra oomph if we need it.

0) For the reason I wrote before we may need Galley now. Then settler. Then Knight->worker.
We also have Pikcman possibility. Anyhow, Knight now does not fit cicle, but may fit in GA, say. But we may keep 7 fpt.

1) Our culture low and Domascus close. We will build barrcks and just at the moment of upgrade it flips, and our knights will gone. If we think that Barrakcs at east cost have to be it may be Uskudar or "New City". {I am a bit paranoid about flips}.

2) Again, the same reason. We left it with 1 City close to Babylon. It will be far away from our capital. I think we should start invasion of America ASAP to gift there Cities to our "friends". But for Babylon Basra may be OK. 3

3) Well, we have 4 HF from WH and 6 HF from lux. All OK. Arabs and Japan do not produce any.

6) If lagos swicht to market Iron will help. I think it is time. Liera, unfortunatly has only 5 spt and Pick need 6 to finish.

7) Just if we need...

 

[I. Larkin]

Was a bit buisy lately but agree with plans.
When attacking France we could generously give them monarchy the turn before.
Think some cities can use some more MM, Lisbon and Lagos can share the wheat. Gui can get KT earlier.
Can also give Zulu Monarchy and demand they leave to get WH again. Not sure how much it will cost though, they have lot of units as they average to us. We do have 10 turns before we ship out. But just 4 knights now. Zulu's are close to ship point, and won't be able to strike back much. So could do it in few turns. Make 5 turn war and ship out on time.

I think the only war we may afford in paralel with french compin it is Ottomans. Just to take one City and gift to somebody. (I assume to Babylon, I don't want that feudalism, that Ottos knows spread too fast) but Babylons have contact with Ottos anyway. New settelment scheme attached.

 

[Othniel]

lurker's comment: othniel, you don´t. you can settler abandon it @ size 1 as long as you don´t have a food surplus

Ok, good to know. You might be able to tell I don't settler abandon much.

 

[eldar]

Ok, good to know. You might be able to tell I don't settler abandon much.

I do it most games, didn't think you could do it at size 1 - thought you could only do it with workers.

 

[eldar]

Okay, here's my first pass at getting a handle on what to do next. It's long but maybe helpful, a couple of points/ideas in there.

SGOTM14 - Team Ivan - 550BC - State of Play

Cities
*Lisbon: 11.0(G) +5f 18spt Knight (16/70)
Istanbul: 1.14 +2f 2spt Trebuchet (28/30)
Mecca: 2.0 +2f 2spt Barracks (18/40)
Medina: 1.2 +1f 1spt Harbor (2/30)
Edrine: 1.14 +0f 1spt Settler (30/30)
Oporto: 7.29 +1f 12spt Knight (12/70)
Evora: 4.15 +3f 3spt Pike (15/30)
Gui: 9.8 +5f 12spt Knights Templar (138?/300)
Lagos: 5.5(G) +5f 6spt Worker (6/10)
(FP)Uskudar: 2.2 +2f 3spt Galley (0/30)
Emerita: 7.12 +3f 5spt Knight (40/70)
Sagres: 5.16 +2f 4spt Knight (16/70)
Coimbra: 5.16 +2f 6spt Knight (52/70)
Rio Janeiro: 3.2 +2f 4spt Courthouse (27/80)
Sao Paulo: 1.12 +2f 1spt Barracks (6/40)
Leiria: 4.11 +1f 5spt Pike (24/30) - MM hill to Lake for +2f and 3spt, Pike still in 2
Braga: 3.10 +2f 1spt Harbor (23/30)
Faro: 3.0 +2f 3spt Barracks (27/40)
Luanda: 1.8 +2f 1spt Barracks (4/40)

Good except for Leiria and what to do with Lisbon. If we want Galley->Galley->Settler as suggested I will MM for more commerce (if possible) and no production overrun.

Military
2 Settlers
20 Workers
3 Warriors
2 Archers
1 Swordsman
8 Horsemen
5 Knights
4 Galleys
1 Trebuchet
2 Curraghs

48 total units, allowed: 46; 2gpt support

Also: 17 slaves, 1 captured catapult

We have plenty of room for more units.

Treasury
71g, +140gpt @ 10.0.0

Good news all round!

Diplomacy

Local:
Babylon: War, will talk, Peace+58g offered, NOTE: Ashur and Ellipi are "doubt" rather than "insulted" when put on the peace table - Babs are clearly hurting
Russia: Peace (Polite), ROP, has 3g, down Mono,Feud
Ottomans: Peace (2) (Furious), has 33g, down Chivalry
Arabia: Peace (18) (Furious), has 0g, down 6 AA techs
Zulu: Peace (Annoyed), has 59g, down Monarchy/Mono/Feud/Eng

Overseas (of interest):
America: War, won't talk
Mongols: War, will talk, Peace+69g offered
Japan: War, will talk, Peace+2g offered
Germany: Peace+Alliance vs Mongols (6) (Polite), has 63g, down Feud
Persia: Peace (Polite), Alliance vs Japan (6), has 2g, down Feud

Everyone else: Peace with no deals

Is it worth chasing spare change for old techs? Only if we need it to make up a difference for a rush/upgrade. Otherwise leave it be.

Do we want to find someone to ally vs. America? Where is America - L.Blue to N of Celts? If so is it worth trying to get Celts vs. America? Embassy in Entremont is 38g. I think that's a good deal to make. Celts are very backwards (don't have MM yet!) so aren't a threat at all if they break the peace treaty; and an alliance would be very cheap.

10-turn plan
- Plant settlers in place after Edrine abandons (this looks like the plan!)
- Continue build-up of forces to attack France - use cash for upgrades & short rushes where possible (currently only Oporto is good for short-rushing)
- Attack Ottomans (Bursa, gift to Arabia? and what with? Knights hoping for promotion?) once peace expires. After IBT there is 1 turn to get units into place, and they're a long way off right now.
- Attack Arabia (what with?) once peace expires (and Damascus grows/expands?)
- Defend vs. Babylon, if necessary

Mid-term plan
- Time capture of Paris with KT build to trigger GA (gift Monarchy turn we declare to force Anarchy, prevent whipping).
- Take out Babylon, Russia, capture SoZ, secure landmass.
- Secure America as "prison island"(?).

Long-term plan
- Domination, but in as nice a way as possible

 

[I. Larkin]

SGOTM14 - Team Ivan - 550BC - State of Play

Cities
*Lisbon: 11.0(G) +5f 18spt Knight (16/70)
Istanbul: 1.14 +2f 2spt Trebuchet (28/30)
Mecca: 2.0 +2f 2spt Barracks (18/40)
Medina: 1.2 +1f 1spt Harbor (2/30)
Edrine: 1.14 +0f 1spt Settler (30/30)
Oporto: 7.29 +1f 12spt Knight (12/70)
Evora: 4.15 +3f 3spt Pike (15/30)
Gui: 9.8 +5f 12spt Knights Templar (138?/300)
Lagos: 5.5(G) +5f 6spt Worker (6/10)
(FP)Uskudar: 2.2 +2f 3spt Galley (0/30)
Emerita: 7.12 +3f 5spt Knight (40/70)
Sagres: 5.16 +2f 4spt Knight (16/70)
Coimbra: 5.16 +2f 6spt Knight (52/70)
Rio Janeiro: 3.2 +2f 4spt Courthouse (27/80)
Sao Paulo: 1.12 +2f 1spt Barracks (6/40)
Leiria: 4.11 +1f 5spt Pike (24/30) - MM hill to Lake for +2f and 3spt, Pike still in 2
Braga: 3.10 +2f 1spt Harbor (23/30)
Faro: 3.0 +2f 3spt Barracks (27/40)
Luanda: 1.8 +2f 1spt Barracks (4/40)

Good except for Leiria and what to do with Lisbon. If we want Galley->Galley->Settler as suggested I will MM for more commerce (if possible) and no production overrun.

 Lisbon should get +7f and go to Galley ->settler ->Knight->Worker->Knight (GA) scheme.
 Lagos -> Grow ! and Marketplace.
 Gui may make KT in 12
 Opporto can make Pickman instead
 Barracks in Mekka with forest cut!

Treasury
71g, +140gpt @ 10.0.0

Good news all round!

Diplomacy

Local:
Babylon: War, will talk, Peace+58g offered, NOTE: Ashur and Ellipi are "doubt" rather than "insulted" when put on the peace table - Babs are clearly hurting
Russia: Peace (Polite), ROP, has 3g, down Mono,Feud
Ottomans: Peace (2) (Furious), has 33g, down Chivalry
Arabia: Peace (18) (Furious), has 0g, down 6 AA techs
Zulu: Peace (Annoyed), has 59g, down Monarchy/Mono/Feud/Eng

Overseas (of interest):
America: War, won't talk
Mongols: War, will talk, Peace+69g offered
Japan: War, will talk, Peace+2g offered
Germany: Peace+Alliance vs Mongols (6) (Polite), has 63g, down Feud
Persia: Peace (Polite), Alliance vs Japan (6), has 2g, down Feud

Everyone else: Peace with no deals

1) Is it worth chasing spare change for old techs? Only if we need it to make up a difference for a rush/upgrade. Otherwise leave it be.

2) Do we want to find someone to ally vs. America? Where is America - L.Blue to N of Celts? If so is it worth trying to get Celts vs. America? Embassy in Entremont is 38g. I think that's a good deal to make. Celts are very backwards (don't have MM yet!) so aren't a threat at all if they break the peace treaty; and an alliance would be very cheap.

1) Yes I think so. Only if “in need”.
2) Don’t know. Obviously we are going to use Celtia as “desert prison”. Likewise North America “tundra prison”. Peace + MA may be 40 turns deal, but probably it is OK. (Or we trash reputation anyway, don’t know). But 38 g is some money, you know.

10-turn plan
3) - Plant settlers in place after Edrine abandons (this looks like the plan!)
4)- Continue build-up of forces to attack France - use cash for upgrades & short rushes where possible (currently only Oporto is good for short-rushing)
5) - Attack Ottomans (Bursa, gift to Arabia? and what with? Knights hoping for promotion?) once peace expires. After IBT there is 1 turn to get units into place, and they're a long way off right now.
6)- Attack Arabia (what with?) once peace expires (and Damascus grows/expands?)
7) - Defend vs. Babylon, if necessary

3) Question is where Edrine settler will go? It is three spots possible: all “not very good”…
4) This is main priority and if KT in 12 (we can make it!) you should Land at France at your last turn. (If you can). Nerovats will take Paris at 330 BC and GA starts 310 BC.
5) Only if it is enough force. Really, Busra is not a good City, but we may keep it for some time to reduce units cost. It is no reason to gift it to somebody. Arabs and France are too close. May be Babylon? But we need peace for that...
6) It is 18 turn peace. Damascus is not that good to trash reputation.
7) Not only, but prepare invasion. We may build road to Moscow and further south. Workers at Rio area are building lots of mines, but at poor food area Cities will not work on it. I think we may Joined 1-2 Worker to Sagres or Leiria ?

8) Mid-term plan
a) - Time capture of Paris with KT build to trigger GA (gift Monarchy turn we declare to force Anarchy, prevent whipping).
b)- Take out Babylon, Russia, capture SoZ, secure landmass. - Secure America as "prison island"(?).

8) a) It is rather short term plan. May be indeed, better to gift them Busra and Monarchy and take all their land for own use?
b) I’d add to this list Japan. But we cant do everething at the same time, so we need to put some priorities and schedule. But road to Moscow now will help anyway.
General:
D-Wetzel did good roading to Mekka area, but some workers work on Hillls rather then irrigate GLs. (But, frankly, I can’t see how we can regroup it efficiently.) Basic idea that worker flow should go East to improve Land there and Joined Uskudar.

 

[templar_x]

I do it most games, didn't think you could do it at size 1 - thought you could only do it with workers.

lurker's comment:
i do use it quite regularly, too. figured out i don´t need to grow the city to size 2 only recently, and this by accident. reloaded and checked 3 times why something happened that ought not happen in my mind. but it works.

 

[DWetzel]

"8) a) It is rather short term plan. May be indeed, better to gift them Busra and Monarchy and take all their land for own use?"

This was my thought. I don't know how doable it is. It would perhaps be doable if we blew rep with a ROP rape of France. But I'm not at all sure that's worth it. Then again, if we get that island sealed off and raze everything except Paris (and maybe eventually even that, though it would be sad to see the Colossus gone), we can easily put seven or eight cities there, and I'd imagine many civs haven't met France.

I'd add to the long term plan that it might be reasonable to figure out just how many islands we need to take (assume that we eventually end with our whole island) to reach the domination limit. We've not got enough exploration done yet to be exact, but estimating should be doable.

 

[DWetzel]

"3) Question is where Edrine settler will go? It is three spots possible: all “not very good”…"

We may want to keep it for a short while. If we fight the Ottomans, we can take one of their two cities, then settle in between them (maybe on that incense hill up there), then make peace--we can settle in their territory when at war. That would help us cram a third civilization (France, maybe) in the tundra without taking up any of our space. Take the closest Ottoman city, then settle in between, gift THAT city to Arabs, then make peace with Ottomans, then clear out Damascus.

 

[ignas]

4) This is main priority and if KT in 12 (we can make it!) you should Land at France at your last turn. (If you can). Nerovats will take Paris at 330 BC and GA starts 310 BC.

Just don't forget to declare war before entering French territory and gift Monarchy!! Doing some scouting is also reasonable as we need to make sure that the tile we are going to land on is empty.
Maybe investigating Paris is good idea to see what we will be facing. Expect 4-6 spears inside, maybe some will leave on the IBT after declaring war.

 

[nerovats]

Why declare before entering? There's no rep hit as far as I know. It will indeed show us if tile is empty. Will we take all French cities (but one) then move on or just Paris then move back to get SoZ. Paris will flip.

 

[eldar]

There's no Rep hit but we effectively lose all ROP Rep for the rest of the game, from everyone France comes in contact with. Is that really something we want to risk?

At this still-early stage, every bit of Rep we can keep is helpful. Later on when we have game-winning momentum, Rep be damned. But for now, I'd rather keep it intact.

It would be nice to get a Scout into France, and I agree also on investigating Paris.

We're aiming for 12 Knights in the initial force, right? That would normally be enough for 4-6 spears at < size 7. I'd like to make sure though. And don't forget they will have 2 Pikes, both of which may be in Paris. Again 12 Knights ought to be more than enough.