SGOTM 14 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Ronnie1]

For city #2, why not on the plans hill 1S of the wheat. By the time the settler is out there won't the capital have it's second border pop, so we can still work the gems straight away. The plains hill gets us an extra 1, and it looks like equal travel time for the settler to get there.
Edit - Oz already noted this

No it won't pop again until T51, that seems like a long time to me, but we can test it for sure.

 

[adrianj]

Yeah, sorry, I'm suggesting all these things without any game access - for some reason I thought second border pop was at 50, but it's actually 100 isn't it?

Ron - what are the actual / number accumulated at the moment? my guess is 0/24 in the bin, 6/15 into warrior?

In 4 turns (end of T24) we will have 24/24 and 10/15.

On the next turn (T25) the cow pasture completes EOT, the city has grown and we have the option to either continue with the warrior or begin on settler straight away. Does finishing the warrior delay the settler? I would assume yes, by 1 turn.

 

[Ronnie1]

Yeah, sorry, I'm suggesting all these things without any game access - for some reason I thought second border pop was at 50, but it's actually 100 isn't it?

Ron - what are the actual / number accumulated at the moment? my guess is 0/24 in the bin, 6/15 into warrior?

In 4 turns (end of T24) we will have 24/24 and 10/15.

On the next turn (T25) the cow pasture completes EOT, the city has grown and we have the option to either continue with the warrior or begin on settler straight away. Does finishing the warrior delay the settler? I would assume yes, by 1 turn.

Yes this is accurate! A 1 turn delay to finish the warrior, I think finish it after the settler, and then chop 1 forest into the 2nd worker before following the settler to the gems.

I really think we should found with the gems in the skinny square and improve them 1st!

 

[Ronnie1]

How many of the Misfit Gypsy Nuts use "windows live messenger" or something else for real time chat?

 

[Ronnie1]

I played the rest of my set. Nothing we are discussing now was relevant.

More seafood south and another lion!

Here is the final screenshot and the MOST CURRENT test game file.

 

[Ronnie1]

The Roster order for the Misfit Gypsy Nuts for SGOTM 14 is.....
1) McArine - waiting
2) Mighty Dwarf - UP NOW
3) Ronnie1 - just played
4) Sleepless - on deck
5) Ozbenno - in the hole
7) Jericho Hill - waiting
8) Grifftavian - waiting
9) ngraner42 - waiting

Advising only as of August 10th

Adrianj
Conquistador63
JonShaw
da_Vinci

 

[Grifftavian]

Another possibility might be to found the City on the Jungle just north of the Gems & Wheat.

We would lose the extra hammer from founding on the PH & the Sugar/Jungle tile, but we would gain the Pigs & Incense (once the borders pop) and get rid of that jungle tile we founded on before it could spread. And we could still improve the Gems & Wheat right away. Also allows for founding another coastal city to the SW later to pick up the Sugar plus the Clams, and maybe other goodies in the undiscovered country to the SW.

Dot-map screen shots attached.

 

[adrianj]

Nicely played Ron.

I have a sneaky suspicion than we are isolated.

I still like the idea of putting city #2 onto the plains hill. Since the Palace culture will double from next turn it won't take long for our capital to pop its borders (approx T38 I think which is only a few turns after settling). The +1 would be great for getting an exploring workboat out sooner.

Settling on the jungle - it's a pretty nice city, especially for production (could work 4 mines at size 6+!) but it doesn't have access to the coast

 

[Grifftavian]

I played the rest of my set. Nothing we are discussing now was relevant.

More seafood south and another lion!

Here is the final screenshot and the MOST CURRENT test game file.

Another nice looking city site right where that cowardly lion is lurking! Crab & Marble and several riverside tiles to Farm or Cottage!

 

[Ozbenno]

How many of the Misfit Gypsy Nuts use "windows live messenger" or something else for real time chat?

I have access to windows, gmail and yahoo IM with the user ID of ozbenno.

I have a sneaky suspicion than we are isolated.

Me too

Won't make setting a victory condition easy as we won't know how far we have to tech to beat the wizard. If we go for culture, we should only have 2 culture cities and rely on artists solely for the third (or until we know what we actually are up against) to avoid an accidental win if we have to go deep into the tree (eg paratroopers).

I still like the idea of putting city #2 onto the plains hill. Since the Palace culture will double from next turn it won't take long for our capital to pop its borders (approx T38 I think which is only a few turns after settling). The +1 would be great for getting an exploring workboat out sooner.

I still like this idea as well. Its a better city and if we get the gems within a few turns of settling from the capital border pop well worth it. Grass gems are indeed awesome

 

[Ronnie1]

We can test lots of options now!

I forgot the doubling of palace culture, so that will indeed speed up the border pop!

EDIT: In actuality, the 2nd border pop for the Capitol comes on T50. The city is going to get planted on T37, either site, travel is the same. IMO, we really need to explore more that direction. Knowing what is in the fog may make a difference on what site is ultimately the best.

 

[adrianj]

Wow... I really am making a lot of false statements aren't I . And here I thought was doubled after 1000 years. Even still, we would have access to the Wheat immediately, so if it's only 12 turns then we might consider delaying access to the gems to be worthwhile.

I agree that better scouting would tell us what's best.

I also wonder if it would be better to complete the warrior build before starting the settler. This frees up Toto to continue moving counter-clockwise from the southeast. Speaking of which, he should probably take the Woodsman promo now since the lion is likely to attack.

Edit: Actually... is the gems city really our best next city? The Oasis/Crabs/Gold city would pay for it's own maintenance immediately, and will be connected to the trade network sooner, and it needs a little more time to pop a border to claim the gold. Plus it's less travel time for the Settler.

 

[Grifftavian]

If we want a coastal site for our second city, another location to consider is NW of the Capitol at the mouth of the river (see attached screen shots).

IMO, finish the current Warrior, then build a Settler. This would have the Settler finished after we have learned Bronze Working. A nearby Copper resource might influence the site selection for our 2nd City.

 

[adrianj]

@Griff - I may have this wrong (it's a trend for me at the moment! ), but I think we will have Bronze Working before the settler is produced regardless of if we finish the warrior.

What do we want out of our #2 city? Here is a list of things that I think could be considered nice (in no particular order at all, the numbers are just for easy reference):

1. Coastal so it can build early exploring workboats.
2. Close to capital or at least can be quickly connected to trade network.
3. Gives a net commerce increase after maintenance.
4. Quickly becomes productive, and can quickly make a contribution to further expansion (warriors/workers/settlers)
5. Fast access to good tiles, ie, not requiring a border pop. (basically == to above point)
6. Access to desirable resources, eg, gems/gold for happiness, or copper for units.

Actually... looking at that list it pretty much sums up ANY new city we found

Personally, I think the important ones for city #2 are 1. Coastal, and 4. Production. Improving out commerce is nice, but in the early game food and production I feel are still more valuable, as increased production has more of a snowball effect on our expansion.

However, the question of early commerce DOES come into play if we start thinking about the Oracle. We might need to balance the competing desires of rapid expansion versus a desirable free tech that requires expensive prereqs (I'm looking at YOU Civil Service!). My opinion on this matter is that yes, Oracle is great, but I'd prioritise a tech like Code of Laws + greater expansion instead of Civil Service.

City #2 Options

1. Forest between deer+wheat
   Immediate access to gems, so this is our best early commerce site assuming we actually work the gems.
   More likely we'll work the powerful deer tile up until size 2 at least.
   1 forest inside BFC, but one lost by settling on it.
   3 roads required to connect for trade.
   3 turns travel time for settler.
   Doesn't really need border pop at all!
   Assuming improved tiles, produces +7,4,7 at size 3, +2,15,7 at size 6 working mined hills.
2. Plains Hill south of Wheat
   Delayed access to gems/deer (waiting on capital border pop).
   First tile to work after settling is mediocre, but it does gain +1 from the city tile.
   Question mark over what might be in the fog to the southwest.
   1 forest inside BFC.
   4 roads required to connect for trade.
   3 turns travel time for settler.
   Other than delay claiming gems/deer, doesn't really need a border pop.
   Produces +7,5,7 at size 3. +4,12,7 at size 5 working mined hills.
3. River Mouth 2S of Fish
   I'm not a big fan of this site Griff - it requires a border pop to access the fish or ivory.
   5 forests in BFC (could chop out Henge or Oracle?)
   No roads needed to connect provided the capital's borders expand.
   3 turns travel time for settler.
   Assuming the fish, ivory and a farmed floodplain Produces +6,4,4 at size 3, ?,?,? at size ? (it's not obvious what tiles to work here)
4. 1S of Pigs
   Maybe this site has some promise? It is coastal. It claims pigs in it's first ring, and will connect gems once the capital pops its borders.
   3 forests inside BFC (1 has Silk).
   3 roads required to connect for trade.
   3 turns travel time for settler.
   Needs border pop to claim clams, wheat, silk and forests.
   Assuming borders popped and workboat (ie, quite a delay) produces +10,3,9 at size 4, +5,16,9 at size 8 working mined hills.
   Great long term potential I think, but takes a little while to get going.
5. Plains Hill 1W of Stone
   It can work the Oasis immediately, but needs a border pop to access the gold and rice.
   5 forests in the BFC, not including ones shared by the capital (chop out Henge or Oracle?)
   2 roads required to connect for trade.
   3 turns travel time for settler (1 less if a forest is chopped first)
   Needs border pop for gold, but close by resources are a good start.
   Assuming workboat, produces +5,2,5 at size 2, +4,8,12 at size 5 with quarry, rice and gold added.

The real standout to me does seem to be the one in between the wheat and the gems. It is productive very soon with the deer/gems/wheat, and gets even more so as it grows and works its mines. Perhaps when the settler is actually produced, Toto might have revealed a bit more of this area. It might be good to dotmap out our first 5 or 6 cities at that stage even.

 

[Mighty Dwaarf]

Got it,

First thoughts,

Finish warrior (should take two turns going to max production after growth to 3). New warrior to scout SW, toto scout SE then cover back to capital. Not sure Woods is best promo, maybe Combat 1 if moving back to cover capital.

Settler, could whip for one pop after seven turns, would save 2 turns on settler after revolt to slavery and city would grow back to 3 after 3 turns working sheep and corn.

Would maybe like a couple of archers to guard against barbs after settler, not worth rapid expansion if we cant defend our borders.

Wheel after Bronze.

Would probably play till BW is in at first, as then we can reasses possible civic switch and city 2 location. So until then only real things to consider are:

finish second warrior or go straight onto settler next turn. I vote finish warrior.

worker to farm corn straight after finish pasturising cows.

Promote Toto combat 1, (I would wait till after lion battle to aid any recovery, I dont think he would lose defending forest). Then move SW, new warrior move to SE coast along forests and onto PH then west along coast.

 

[adrianj]

Finish warrior (should take two turns going to max production after growth to 3).

I wonder... if we swap the sheep tile for silk tile would we finish the warrior in 1 turn? In which case completing the warrior adds no delay to the settler at all.

New warrior to scout SW, toto scout SE then cover back to capital. Not sure Woods is best promo, maybe Combat 1 if moving back to cover capital.

The warrior will most likely be attacked this turn. With Woody promo our odds of winning are something like 96.7%. With combat1 it's something like 96.0%. So in that respect it doesn't make much difference. I guess we should decide if we want to head down the Combat line or the Woody line (future Woody medic?). Without any promo at all our odds are 90%. Is it worth the added risk only to save a turn or two on healing?
(Combat Odds Calculator:http://c4combat.narod.ru/c4c.htm)

Settler, could whip for one pop after seven turns, would save 2 turns on settler after revolt to slavery and city would grow back to 3 after 3 turns working sheep and corn.

For our first settler this might be a good move. But, it would slow the subsequent workers/warriors. So... I dunno.

Would maybe like a couple of archers to guard against barbs after settler, not worth rapid expansion if we cant defend our borders.

Does anyone know offhand what turn we can expect barbs to enter our borders? My understanding is that it is some hard-coded date, until which we can be a bit relaxed about things.

Wheel after Bronze.

Would probably play till BW is in at first, as then we can reasses possible civic switch and city 2 location.

Sounds good

So until then only real things to consider are:

finish second warrior or go straight onto settler next turn. I vote finish warrior.

I'm also of the opinion that finishing warrior is better

worker to farm corn straight after finish pasturising cows.

Promote Toto combat 1, (I would wait till after lion battle to aid any recovery, I dont think he would lose defending forest). Then move SW, new warrior move to SE coast along forests and onto PH then west along coast.

 

[Grifftavian]

I wonder... if we swap the sheep tile for silk tile would we finish the warrior in 1 turn? In which case completing the warrior adds no delay to the settler at all....

We currently have 9/15 invested in the Warrior build. Capitol is a size 2, working Sheep Pasture & unimproved Corn, producing just 1 . Using the Test Save, to get the Warrior out in 1 Turn I had to not only move from the Sheep Pasture to the Silk (Spices would also work) but also move from the unimproved Corn to the Forested Plains Hill 1NW. While this gets the Warrior completed in one turn, we also have one turn of -1 in the food box! Building a Settler at Size 2 working Sheep Pasture & Cow Pasture got the Settler out on T35 without revolting to slavery & whipping.

Leaving the citizens along, Capitol grows to Size 3 in one turn, and the Cow Pasture is also completed at the end of that one turn. Worker was out in two turns, and Settler was still out on T35 without revolting to slavery & whipping.

No difference in getting the first Settler out, but obviously better afterwards with Capitol at Size 3 vs. Size 2.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I wonder... if we swap the sheep tile for silk tile would we finish the warrior in 1 turn? In which case completing the warrior adds no delay to the settler at all.

If we swap the corn tile for the silk/spice tile (this turn only) the city will grow in 2 and the warrior will finish in 2. There should be some production carry-over into the settler since the cows will be pastured (and should be used) next turn. Without testing, looks like the best way to me, but I might be mistaken.

Without any promo at all our odds are 90%. Is it worth the added risk only to save a turn or two on healing?

I would promote him now. We need to survive 2 battles to get to level 3 (4XP as we're CHA). Woodsman2 is cool for the added movement in forest/jungle.

Settler, could whip for one pop after seven turns,

I wouldn't whip the cap if it goes below size3 once the 3 food tiles are improved.

Does anyone know offhand what turn we can expect barbs to enter our borders? My understanding is that it is some hard-coded date, until which we can be a bit relaxed about things.

Long (and precise) answer.
Short (and inaccurate) answer: on this level, later than 2000BC or after we settle our 3rd city.

Would probably play till BW is in at first, as then we can reasses possible civic switch and city 2 location.

Sounds good. Until then, a draft dotmap is attached below, with my opinion on settling order based on current map knowledge. Worth justifying my preference for the NE city 1st. It can actually start developing itself (a workboat or 2, obelisk when we learn Myst) without a worker. Leaving the gems city for next we'll benefit from capitol's 2nd border pop. We also need to learn hunting to camp the deer.

 

[adrianj]

Ok.

I should rephrase - when I meant complete warrior in 1 turn, I meant to say 1 turn after we are at size 3 Next turn we've grown to size 3, and have 10/15 invested into warrior, so it should be possible to get the last 5 in a single turn considering we'll also have the cows pastured at that point.

Scenario 1 - Settler first
Stay as we are for this turn.
Switch to settler next turn, working cows+sheep+spices or silk (11/turn).
Do this for 5 turns (55/100) until the corn farm completes (end of T30).
With corn farm swap the spices over to the corn for total 13/turn.
Settler ready to move on T34. But no warrior escort. However, there's more than 5 overflow , suggesting that maybe we *could* have produced the warrior without delaying the settler.

Scenario 2 - warrior first
Stay as is to grow this turn, ie, work sheep+corn. Warrior will be at 10/15.
Next turn work plains hill + cows + spices (+0, 9), completing warrior with 4 overflow.
Begin settler on T26 working best tiles up until T30 (48/100), where again we swap to corn farm.
If all goes well, the settler is still complete and ready to move T34, this time with a new warrior preferably already in position.
It sounds good, but maybe I'm wrong about how quickly we can build the corn farm?

Scenario 3 - whip the Settler
We can expect to finish BW end of T32, so could revolt on T33, and then whip T34, settler ready to move T35. This is no faster than building the settler the usual way.
We might be able to save a turn on BW if we work all our best commerce tiles instead of corn/cows, but it doesn't seem right.

 

[Ozbenno]

Sounds good. Until then, a draft dotmap is attached below, with my opinion on settling order based on current map knowledge. Worth justifying my preference for the NE city 1st. It can actually start developing itself (a workboat or 2, obelisk when we learn Myst) without a worker. Leaving the gems city for next we'll benefit from capitol's 2nd border pop. We also need to learn hunting to camp the deer.

Agree. We should get second settler out quickly though.

Oracle was mentioned before. if we decide this, then settling on marble would be a very good idea for 4th city methinks.