SGOTM 14 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Conquistador 63 · Aug 11, 2011

Well, I was able to create a 2AI per team game unloading Buffy, and indeed it showed as 4 rivals. I agree that is very unlikely that we have some AI at war with us.

At the end of the day, things will become blatantly obvious when we start meeting AIs.

Agreed, but the relevant consideration is whether this setup make culture more or less appealing than military VC's. If we are quick to anticipate and set our mind early towards the most favourable goal, we might get some advantage relative to other teams.

I am willing to test the current and maybe some alternative approaches.
Is our current benchmark to get a settler out by t44? What else do we get built in this time frame? 2 workers and a warrior? Which city size will we be at then?

Conquistador 63 · Aug 11, 2011

Regarding expected finish dates among several VC's in games where the AI is teamed up, I lookep up at WOTM33 results (Noble level, 3 teams of 3AI each, Peter, fractal, low sea, normal speed).

Domination: 1520AD Cactus Pete
Conquest: 1515AD TheHawk
Diplo: 1555AD Dhoomstryker
Space: 1818AD Neilmeister
Culture: 1495AD Lexad

In the other team game WOTM20 the human was also in a team of 3 so the results are probably less aplicable.

adrianj · Aug 11, 2011

Conquistador 63 said:
Regarding expected finish dates among several VC's in games where the AI is teamed up, I lookep up at WOTM33 results (Noble level, 3 teams of 3AI each, Peter, fractal, low sea, normal speed).

Domination: 1520AD Cactus Pete

Conquest: 1515AD TheHawk

Diplo: 1555AD Dhoomstryker

Space: 1818AD Neilmeister

Culture: 1495AD Lexad

In the other team game WOTM20 the human was also in a team of 3 so the results are probably less aplicable.

That is a very interesting list...

I really do enjoy Cultural games, and by that list it looks like it could be good. Not to mention we do have some scope to improve on Lexad's date, not least because we are a team with many months to play the game!

However, by that same token I would expect the dates for the military VCs to also be greatly improved upon.

One good thing about a cultural game, is that once we've scouted out a sufficient amount of our land we could play test games on this terrain and get a fairly good idea of how long cultural would take.

Killing the Wizard is still an issue however...

Ok... so how might our early game (first 60 or so turns) change if we were considering a Cultural VC? Different tech path? Early religions? Targetting wonders? If we're lucky, we'll be able to postpone making the decision to commit to a non-military VC until we have at least met a few AI. Even better, if we've found the wizard!

Ozbenno · Aug 11, 2011

It still all comes down to what we need to do to kill the wizard. If we need advanced techs, then culture might not be appealing. I would be very surprised if, at least, we don't need Astronomy, which would mean extra teching for culture. I don't think we overcommit to a victory condition until we meet some AI and see what is up with them.

Mining/BW is good and getting a settler or two out is also good.

Conquistador 63 · Aug 11, 2011

Sure, I agree that this issue does not affect the next turnset at least.

I played a quick game on Ron's updated test save

goodjob

and have to agree that a 2nd worker and early BW rocks. If we want we can optimize it, but in my game by t43 the settler for our 3rd city is travelling, and we have 3 warriors, see screenie. 4 forests have been chopped.

I improved sheep/cows/corn, then chops.
After wkr1 was built I part built a warrior until size2 (t20).
On size 2 I finished 2nd wrk t28 then warrior t29.
Next, another warrior which was finished t32 when city grew to 3 and we finished BW.
Settler for city2 was done t37 and founded at t40.
Settler for city3 was done t42.
After BW, I went the wheel, 1t at 0%research, then Myst at 100%.

Grifftavian · Aug 11, 2011

Ronnie1 said:
Pre-Play-Plan T14-T24

Spoiler :

BUILD QUEUE
Capitol - Worker, switch to warrior when Sheep are ready, switch back to worker at size 2(T24 start of turn)

EXPLORING
warrior -continue counter clockwise looking for more food by gems!

UNIT MOVES
warrior above

WORKER ACTIONS
improve sheep > improve corn

CITY MM
Tile use -size 1 > Sheep (pasture when ready)
size 2 sheep pasture + spices(T24 only)

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Hopefully none. I'll play nicely with the other children if I have the option.

STOP CRITERIA

Reach start of T24
Anything weird, especially if we might react to it.

OTHERS
Research: Mining > BW
Civic change: none
Religion change: none
Cities settled: none

THINGS TO DO EVERY TURN

Make a saved game

Plan looks good!

You didn't mention Toto's pending promotion. Promote him to Woodsman I or save it for later?

Not sure if giving us Archery was a mistake or not, but IMO giving us a renamed Warrior with 2 XP had to be deliberate choice by the mapmaker.

Ronnie1 · Aug 12, 2011

Conquistador 63 said:
Sure, I agree that this issue does not affect the next turnset at least.

I played a quick game on Ron's updated test save goodjob and have to agree that a 2nd worker and early BW rocks. If we want we can optimize it, but in my game by t43 the settler for our 3rd city is travelling, and we have 3 warriors, see screenie. 4 forests have been chopped.

View attachment 298262

I improved sheep/cows/corn, then chops.
After wkr1 was built I part built a warrior until size2 (t20).
On size 2 I finished 2nd wrk t28 then warrior t29.
Next, another warrior which was finished t32 when city grew to 3 and we finished BW.
Settler for city2 was done t37 and founded at t40.
Settler for city3 was done t42.
After BW, I went the wheel, 1t at 0%research, then Myst at 100%.

Could I get a few details on this please? It seems you are getting the settlers out a bit quicker than me! What forests are getting chopped and are you whipping at all? If/When are you revolting to slavery?

Sleepless · Aug 12, 2011

I had much the same results as C63 going cow after sheep but 2 pop whipping the cap for the second settler. Chopped one less forest though.

Trying the corn after sheep I was very slightly behind.

One thing I do think we can get 3 cities very early but its a must to make sure we have enough workers with all these resources.

adrianj · Aug 12, 2011

Workers sure are important, perhaps we make them as a priority after the 2 settlers. Of C63 and Sleepless' tests, I like the non-whipping option better. It keeps the capital at a large enough size to always work our best tiles.

When to revolt: even though we might not use the whip straight away, revolting sooner rather than later seems preferable as the empire will lose less production. I think Ron suggested while settler #1 is en route, which I like

adrianj · Aug 12, 2011

Ronnie1 said:
Could I get a few details on this please? It seems you are getting the settlers out a bit quicker than me! What forests are getting chopped and are you whipping at all? If/When are you revolting to slavery?

It looks like improving Sheep -> Cows is better than Sheep -> Corn.

Conquistador 63 · Aug 12, 2011

I will be able to answer Ron's questions in a few hours when I'll have access to the game. I did not revolt in my test, could do it this turn while settler 2 in en route. Doing it before might delay settler2, if we won't whip it.

Basic differences between our tests were:
. the order of worker1 actions (sheep/cows/corn)
. start growing to 2 right after wkr1 is built (not sure if it makes a difference)
. chopped 4 tiles N,NE,NE_E, NE_N

Maybe I can gain a turn on my own 1st try by making workers chop different forests (I think I put them together fo finish corn farming then chopping a forest), so less wasted worker moves.

Conquistador 63 · Aug 12, 2011

Replayed test using basically same approach, but this time the 2 workers chopped different tiles. No gain on the settler finish speed, but we do get a leg up on roading to city 2 and 3. Settler can reach destination next turn and settle city3 in 2t. We can revolt this turn. Sleepless has a valid point, maybe we should build a 3rd worker in capital at size3, and grow after that. This worker should mine the riverside hills for more production.

Are we ready to play next turnset?

Autolog

Spoiler :

adrianj · Aug 12, 2011

If Ron is happy to go then I think we're ready. Only question affecting this turnset was what the worker does after the Sheep pasture. Questions re chopping are for next set are they not?

Ronnie1 · Aug 13, 2011

I plan to play in about 20 hours from this post.

JerichoHill · Aug 13, 2011

I believe pre-chopping was in order post shheeeeeeeeeeeep

Sleepless · Aug 13, 2011

Someone already mentioned going for the Glh. Looking at the surrounding land and the possibility we will be isolated should certainly be a consideration. If were not the boost from our trade routes with other civs will be worth it either way.

Would polarise our tech path a bit. Min - BW - Wheel - Myst - Sail - Masonry. Would also recommend we chop/whip/build it in the pig/gem city if we go for it.

Tbh with the amount of good tiles we have available we shouldn't be whipping to much when the pop are working improved tiles. i.e my test game

Edit missed wheel out of original list above.

JerichoHill · Aug 13, 2011

I've downloaded the test save (updated) and I'm going to see what its like to get GLH fast, and others

And get back into playing, too

Sleepless · Aug 13, 2011

Well gave it one last quick run through and the following results are by growing to size by building a warrior then change to worker at size 2.

Sheep - cow - corn. Worker finishes turn 29. Warrior has 1 turn left and 4 turns to growth size 3.

Sheep - corn - cow. Worker finishes turn 29. Warrior has 7 turns left and 3 turns to growth size 3.

Then tried finishing 1st worker starting second and changing to warrior once sheep pastured. So

Sheep - cow - corn. Worker finishes turn 29. Warrior has 2 turns left and 4 turns to growth.

Did try worker - worker but not as good results.

So it seems worker - warrior until size 2 then change to worker. Sheep - cow - corn gives very slightly the best results though not a lot in all of them.

Ronnie1 · Aug 13, 2011

I started thinking about other options while I was working and just got done testing a few things I want to discuss before playing.

This goes back to something Duckweed said in a thread a while back, paraphrasing a bit, "can I build anything better than a SETTLER next?"

So I started thinking, what about settler at size 2? I was able to get a settler finished T32, moving T33 and city #2 founded T36. I followed with 2 warriors to grow to size 3 since by then we have 3 tiles improved, and then went settler again. I got the 2nd settler marching on T43 with only 2 chops used and no whipping.

I really think this a better plan! We get city #2 founded 4 turns earlier than C63's best test, and city #3 will plant at basically the same time as his best test. What we give up is the early 2nd worker, but we are also 2 forests ahead(unchopped), so we can chop that worker out after the 2nd settler if we really want it then.

I am going to wait for feed back before playing, at least 24 hours so everyone can weigh in.

Ozbenno · Aug 14, 2011

Not sure. A second city is as early as possible is good I think. It can build a worker to start as well. As long as we are getting our improvements done as quick as they are required I think this is good. But maybe at size 3 with corn, cow and sheep improved??

SGOTM 14 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Deity

Deity

Deity

Fly Fly Away

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Bedrock of Knowledge

Deity

Bedrock of Knowledge

Deity

Deity

Fly Fly Away

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