SGOTM 14 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[da_Vinci]

Hi all,

Looks like I'll have to be taken off the playing roster until further notice, as a pretty severe family medical emergency has come up.

dV

 

[Ozbenno]

Hi all,

Looks like I'll have to be taken off the playing roster until further notice, as a pretty severe family medical emergency has come up.

dV

No good

Hopefully everything is all right soon. Best wishes to you and the family.

 

[adrianj]

I'm sorry to hear that dV . I hope everything works out.

Re Settlers- Good thinking Ron, and wise to stop and discuss. This is effectively a question of worker or settler next right? It does sound smart.
1. Is it fastest to build from size 2, or should we wait to size 3 as Oz suggests?
2. Does this make corn before cows better so we get to size 3 sooner?
3. If the city is planted early but not connected for trade is it still a net win?
4. What are we giving up by not having an earlier worker?

I see no reason to hurry this early stage, so I guess some more time play testing is in order.

Edited for clarification. To answer q3, I'm sure it is a win, it could build wb and then perhaps whip a worker

 

[Ronnie1]

Not sure. A second city is as early as possible is good I think. It can build a worker to start as well. As long as we are getting our improvements done as quick as they are required I think this is good. But maybe at size 3 with corn, cow and sheep improved??

That's what made think settler before 2nd worker.....we are improving tiles faster than we can work them. Other than chopping, the second worker is improving tiles we can't use. We can chop the 2nd worker very quickly also. Maybe get the worker between settlers 1-2? 4 turns earlier planting of city 2 is very valuable IMO.....the sooner it is up, the sooner it contributes, and the opportunity costs are very little!

@dV...noted, sorry.

 

[adrianj]

Ron - if you wanted you could probably play as planned up to the point where the city grows to size 2, or where the worker must decide it's second improvement (I forget which comes first).

 

[JerichoHill]

Agreed Oz

 

[Sleepless]

@ dv hope everything turns out ok.

As for the game. The reason I'm not so keen on settler before second worker is the new city will not have a worker for it and delay improvements. Currently if we go worker - worker - settler - settler - worker + a few warriors each city has early improved tiles it can work. Have to have a little test myself.

There is still the area in the South to scout a bit. Missing from the test map but the grassland forest deer is a strong tile so there might be a possibility of good tiles round there as well.

Victory conditions. I'm still not against trying for a culture victory but we would have to decide quite early as we want most of our GPs to be artists.

Doesn't look like there is much option for a riverside cottage spam culture victory so will have to rely on buildings/great works for the culture. I haven't had many culture victories so thoughts on the best way to go would help.

 

[Grifftavian]

I tried the Test save, growing to size 3 and improving the Corn 2nd in order to get to size 3 sooner. Capitol grew to Size 3 while the Worker was building the Corn Farm; worked the riverside Spice until Cows Pasture was complete.

Settler 2 complete T35; City #2 founded T38 (a couple of turns slower than R1)
Next built Warrior>Settler 3.
Settler 3 complete T41; City #3 founded T44 (a couple of turns sooner)
Chopped two forests to accomplish this.

Looks to me to be a wash in the long run, but getting city #2 up and running sooner probably tips the balance towards R1's approach. Agree with aj that city #2 should build Work Boat for Crabs>whip Worker.

FWIW, I updated R1's latest TEST Save to give us Archery has our Benevolent Map Maker has done.

 

[Ronnie1]

The reason I'm not so keen on settler before second worker is the new city will not have a worker for it and delay improvements.

I'm not worried about this because we don't have any tiles in the skinny square to improve yet. We don't have masonry, the worker can't help with the WB except for chopping.

Also, because we will be running slavery early, we don't really need that many workers super early. As long we are able to keep improving the resource tiles with growth we should be fine.

 

[Conquistador 63]

@dV: sorry to hear that, best wishes.

I admit an earlier city 2 is an interesting possibility, mainly because if it works the oasis tile it can start growing to whip a WB with overflow to a 2nd one (for exploring) or to a monument, without harming our beaker output, due to the commerce generated there. I think city2 shouldn't build a worker itself, those can be built in capital more efficiently.

But IMHO the 3rd city before another worker doesn't cut it. The clams needs a border pop to be worked, and it won't have commerce in its initial worked tile. We need a worker to connect these cities for the trade routes, a worker to improve city3 (starting by pasturing pigs), and another one to mine hills as capital grows.

 

[Ozbenno]

I admit an earlier city 2 is an interesting possibility, mainly because if it works the oasis tile it can start growing to whip a WB with overflow to a 2nd one (for exploring) or to a monument, without harming our beaker output, due to the commerce generated there. I think city2 shouldn't build a worker itself, those can be built in capital more efficiently.

Agree on this. Forgot about the oasis tile. Working this and the base commerce means that the second city will give us a good boost to commerce. But whether to build at size 3 or 2 . If we go sheep - corn then we can get to size 3 quicker.

 

[Ronnie1]

I played most of the next set.

If we go sheep - corn then we can get to size 3 quicker.

Actually neither of those tiles affect growth to size 3, we will grow before either can be improved, if we continue with the warrior. That is basically why I want to go settler now. But I am going to test more to see if size 3 has any other advantages that I am missing now.

More resources to the west, the gem site may be a better city 2 site!

The save is uploaded.

I will update the test game now.

The upload log is here

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 3480 BC to 3160 BC:


Turn 19, 3240 BC: You have discovered Mining!

Turn 20, 3200 BC: MunchkinLand will grow to size 2 on the next turn.

Turn 21, 3160 BC: MunchkinLand has grown to size 2.

The autolog is here

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 13/500 (3480 BC) [14-Aug-2011 18:19:00]

Turn 538/750 (1944 AD) [14-Aug-2011 18:15:11]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 14/500 (3440 BC) [14-Aug-2011 18:19:01]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
MunchkinLand finishes: Worker

Turn 15/500 (3400 BC) [14-Aug-2011 18:19:21]
MunchkinLand begins: Warrior (15 turns)
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 16/500 (3360 BC) [14-Aug-2011 18:19:55]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 17/500 (3320 BC) [14-Aug-2011 18:20:24]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 18/500 (3280 BC) [14-Aug-2011 18:20:47]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 19/500 (3240 BC) [14-Aug-2011 18:21:17]
A Pasture was built near MunchkinLand
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Mining

Turn 20/500 (3200 BC) [14-Aug-2011 18:21:32]
Research begun: Bronze Working (13 Turns)
100% Research: 11 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
MunchkinLand grows to size 2

Screen shot of the west...and some animals that slowed my progress.

 

[Ozbenno]

I like the look of the gems. Can settle on the plains hill for the extra hammer and get gems, deer, wheat and sugar in BFC. Nice.

If we switch to settler now, rather than worker, we don't have a warrior to escort and would have to drag back our scouting warrior to escort and lose scouting turns.

 

[Ronnie1]

The updated test save is here.

 

[Ronnie1]

I was thinking the forest in the middle of the wheat/gems/deer so we could start working the gems ASAP....Grass gems is about as good as it gets early!

 

[adrianj]

Cool Ron

So we now need to decide which to improve next, cows or corn. Unfortunately Ron, you've kind of handicapped the corn option anyway by moving the worker to where you have (or was this already decided anyway? I can't remember)

If neither has any effect on getting to size 3, then I think cows first is better for two reasons: 1) It yields a total of 6/turn toward a settler/worker compared to only 5 for the corn, 2) it will complete a turn earlier than a farm improvement.

This land we have around really is quite awesome. If any of us have preconceived ideas about grabbing wonders, we really must contrast these options with settling these wonderful city sites ASAP.

As for choosing worker or settler next, my vote is for settler. Am I correct in thinking that if we improve cows next, then we grow to size 3 end of turn 24 and the settler is ready to move on T32? Otherwise, if we start on settler immediately it is ready to move on T33? This tells me that growing to size 3 is the better choice.

 

[Sleepless]

Have to agree with the wet wheat and grass deer (need hunting for camp) plus gems in the small fat cross the site 1W of the deer looks very good as a second city compared to the others. Looking around though there seems a lot of very good city sites in the area which makes me wonder why????

Id have to try the test game again as although I managed to get Washington settled earlier with the lack of chopping the third city was well behind plus one less worker/warrior for a couple of forests.

 

[Ronnie1]

If we grow to size 3 before starting the settler, it delays the settler by 1 turn. He is moving on T34 instead of T33, but we are in a bit better position when the settler is complete, working 3 improved tiles! Follow the settler with a partially chopped second worker and we are in pretty good shape I think.

 

[adrianj]

For city #2, why not on the plans hill 1S of the wheat. By the time the settler is out there won't the capital have it's second border pop, so we can still work the gems straight away. The plains hill gets us an extra 1, and it looks like equal travel time for the settler to get there.
Edit - Oz already noted this

 

[Ronnie1]

Yes aj, the cows tested better than the corn for the second improvement.

But I am convinced that size 3 is better than size 2 for the settler. The timing is very good with the rate at which tiles will be improved.

We can chop 1 forest into the second worker, then send worker #1 to city #2 to start improving ASAP. Do we improve Gems 1st though? It is closer than the wheat, and the mine is done quicker than the farm!